Beating Life into A Dead Monkey! ~ The DK Match-up guide ~ Fox Week 2

[Airwalkerr]

Ola. Few of you here know me at all, as I am a Canadian Smasher who has only attended small tournies here in Alberta, seeing as I got competitive after Brawl's release. But I have been smashing since Melee's release, and know a thing or two. Now, even though I main random and play every character, DK is my favorite to play. The U-air combo's, the cargo throw, the nair, everything DK has just makes you fall in love with this big old simian. Now I was doing my usual early morning creep of the DK forums, and out of the blue noticed that he has no match-up thread. Sure, there's some coverage in the guide, but the meta-game has progressed since 2006, and things have changed. This thread is for those few remaining DK's who would like to share their knowledge with any up and coming DK's. I mean, c'mon. Help a monkey out here! Now I suppose I'll organize the thread in order of the Tier List, and since Marth is harder than Fox for DK, we'll start with him. So lend me your knowledge, and maybe give me a little bit of organizational advice, and we'll get this match-up thread up and running... Through a forest with a hot blonde girl. Monkey a Go-Go, DK forums!!!

MARTH~ 60-40 Marth's favor
The princess herself! A good Marth will space, space, SPACE his *** off, but luckily, you can keep up with him. One of his main spacers is his fair. Your bair outranges his fair. This is very nice, although you should not take this for granted. Marth's disjointed sword will always beat your stretchy limbs. Donkey punch and forward smash outrange this fools F-Smash, so try to use this to your advantage. But be wary of getting baited, we all know Marth's love to wavedash away and tipper you. Try to counter pick FD, for stages with platforms work moreso in Marth's favor than in yours. Seeing as it is more than likely you will end up with some platforms around, however, try to use them to YOUR advantage. So long as you don't let him get under you while your on a platform, you should be good. In fact, the angels will sing if you can manage to get under HIM. So long as you have a good grasp of fast falling and L-cancelling, you can keep the tempo of your uairs fast enough that you can rack up a good 20-30% before he dodges or busts out a counter. One thing you really need to watch out for with Marth is his mad gimping/edge-guarding skills. Your vertical recovery is absolute ****tery, and he will exploit your big monkey bones to that end. Going for spikes can be a risky business, for Marth's recovery will send you flying if you time your spike poorly. Unless the Marth is very far out, going out to hit him away is too risky. Strongbad is very right in his advice that you should wait for the Marth to sweetspot or land on the stage, and go in for a D-tilt gimp. You can use the Marth's offstage time to charge your punch, and maybe even hit him with it if he doesn't sweetspot. Mexicans take on edgeguarding Marth is to light shield right at the edge with your back facing the edge, and hold your control stick towards the edge. When Marth's up+b strikes your shield, you will fly backwards onto the edge, gimping him if he tried to sweetspot, and setting up a free hit if he lands on the stage. both ways work, just play to preferance. Dreamland 64 is by general consensus the best stage against Marth.

First off, u air combos don't work on marth. Secondly, you should just about NEVER use dk's f smash, ESPECIALLY against marth. I use it once in a blue moon, but thats never something to rely on. And marth trying to spike you can be beaten if you hug the wall on your way up. When he d airs you or f smashes you or d tilts you, you can always ledge tech, wall jump, and up b him, but you have to be careful though because higher level marths will expect it and will just crouch cancel it and f smash you. In that case, you can try and change it up by either air dodging instead of up b'ing, or you can even b air after the wall jump and still sweetspot the edge with an up b afterwards. Its kinda difficult to time the b air right though. Also, you're going to find it nearly impossible to get a high level marth with a b air or even a spinning kong when he's off the edge. Marth's forward b stalls him in the air, while at the same time, attacking, and it's still disjointed and will still outprioritize your moves. High level marths will forward b if you try to approach and then up b immediately afterwards, recovering themselves and potentially stage spiking you. Best way to edgeguard marth is to stand on the very edge of the stage facing away from the ledge and light shield while holding towards the edge. When you do, if marth's up b hits your shield, you'll automatically grab the ledge and he'll fall to die if he tries to sweetspot, and if he doesn't try to sweetspot, he'll have lag from landing, in which case, you'll have time to jump up with a d air, popping him up and setting you up for a f air or giant punch. My 3 cents. =D

FOX~ 60-40 Fox's favor

 

[Rappster]

I really like this matchup (i main luigi, but i use dk against marth/roy). giant punch and fsmash both outrange marth's fsmash.

below is the recently updated marth-dk matchup from the marth boards:
Donkey Kong

Time to deal with the ape from SNES. Donkey Kong has one of the worst shields in the game...hence, why hes not a high tier character. Donley Kong packs a great offense though and with good spacing, a nice cargo throw, and a nice fsmash or two he can take you out. Luckily in your case Marth is the best at spacing, poking shields, and ****** defensive players. Your main concern should be to avoid his bair. His bair actually out ranges your fair (your best aerial) so it can be difficult in spacing with him. I find that sweet spotted nairs work wonders in this match because they often destroy his shield and poke him. Don't abuse this though mix up your throws, fairs, and nairs. Stages like Battlefield, Yoshis Story, Pokemon Stadium, Dreamland, (although YOUR WORST STAGE) are useful against DK. The main reason being the platforms are absolutely horrible for DK. DK has little to no options when he is above you because his dair comes out REALLY SLOW. along with his fair. Keep DK above you throughout the whole match and use u throw, f throw, and d throw. (f and d throw near ledges) His recovery is easily gimped or D/F tilted to an edge hog so you don't need to whip out a fsmash to keep him off. Marths edge game is so stupid that tilts get the job done. When dealing with DK just make your edge game extremely simple and efficient. Avoid trying to kill him vertically because due to his weight he will live long. Rely on horizontal kills and gimps. His defense sucks, so keep the pressure up and mix your game up.

 

[El HP]

Marth isn't a harder match than fox in fact is fairly even or slighty in marth's favor.

BTW dreamland is actually a bad stage for marth since dk can survive at very percentages while dk kills marth easily.

Check mexican's thread for more info on marth vs dk match.

 

[MEXICAN]

Ola. Few of you here know me at all, as I am a Canadian Smasher who has only attended small tournies here in Alberta, seeing as I got competitive after Brawl's release. But I have been smashing since Melee's release, and know a thing or two. Now, even though I main random and play every character, DK is my favorite to play. The U-air combo's, the cargo throw, the nair, everything DK has just makes you fall in love with this big old simian. Now I was doing my usual early morning creep of the DK forums, and out of the blue noticed that he has no match-up thread. Sure, there's some coverage in the guide, but the meta-game has progressed since 2006, and things have changed. This thread is for those few remaining DK's who would like to share their knowledge with any up and coming DK's. I mean, c'mon. Help a monkey out here! Now I suppose I'll organize the thread in order of the Tier List, and since Marth is harder than Fox for DK, we'll start with him. So lend me your knowledge, and maybe give me a little bit of organizational advice, and we'll get this match-up thread up and running... Through a forest with a hot blonde girl. Monkey a Go-Go, DK forums!!!

MARTH~ 60-40 Marth's favor
The princess herself! A good Marth will space, space, SPACE his *** off, but luckily, you can keep up with him. One of his main spacers is his fair. Your bair outranges his fair. This is very nice, although you should not take this for granted. Marth's disjointed sword will always beat your stretchy limbs. Cargo---> uair juggles work wonders, as always, and it is more than possible to take Marth out if you land one single grab. Donkey punch and forward smash outrange this fools F-Smash, so try to use this to your advantage. But be wary of getting baited, we all know Marth's love to wavedash away and tipper you. Try to counter pick FD, for stages with platforms work moreso in Marth's favor than in yours. Seeing as it is more than likely you will end up with some platforms around, however, try to use them to YOUR advantage. So long as you don't let him get under you while your on a platform, you should be good. In fact, the angels will sing if you can manage to get under HIM. So long as you have a good grasp of fast falling and L-cancelling, you can keep the tempo of your uairs fast enough that he will not be able to get a dair out to stop you. One thing you really need to watch out for with Marth is his mad gimping/edge-guarding skills. Your vertical recovery is absolute ****tery, and he will exploit your big monkey bones to that end.However, if you get him off the edge, Spinning Kong him out to unrecoverable distances, or hit him with a bair. Going for spikes can be a risky business, for Marth's recovery will send you flying if you time your spike poorly. I'll edit more to this as it comes, for now I'm too weary to go on.

I like where your heart is airwalker, but i have to disagree with a good chunk of your advice. Your advice is still kinda outdated. First off, u air combos don't work on marth. Secondly, you should just about NEVER use dk's f smash, ESPECIALLY against marth. I use it once in a blue moon, but thats never something to rely on. And marth trying to spike you can be beaten if you hug the wall on your way up. When he d airs you or f smashes you or d tilts you, you can always ledge tech, wall jump, and up b him, but you have to be careful though because higher level marths will expect it and will just crouch cancel it and f smash you. In that case, you can try and change it up by either air dodging instead of up b'ing, or you can even b air after the wall jump and still sweetspot the edge with an up b afterwards. Its kinda difficult to time the b air right though. Also, you're going to find it nearly impossible to get a high level marth with a b air or even a spinning kong when he's off the edge. Marth's forward b stalls him in the air, while at the same time, attacking, and it's still disjointed and will still outprioritize your moves. High level marths will forward b if you try to approach and then up b immediately afterwards, recovering themselves and potentially stage spiking you.

 

[Airwalkerr]

Thanks, MEXICAN! My smashing circle is average at best, and most Marth's I beat in tournies are sub-par, while the good ones I've come across I did not beat with DK. I've edited my post, but is there anything else you can add to the match-up in general? What to do with him offstage if not bair and Spinning Kong, good gimps, counterpicking stages, etc? That goes to the rest of you , ye proud DK mains! Lets tackle the Marth match-up, we have bigger fish to fry! That **** furry *******....

 

[Ryofoong]

Also, it's easy to Up-B gimp Marth because due to his quick Up-B it makes it quite easy to gimp Marth with it. Or so I've realized from fighting a few Marths. Just when he's below you just edge drop and Up-B really fast. Usually you'll either hit him with the start up hitbox, or you'll hit him with the little slaps, and then you do it again! That's just my 2 cents on the marth edgeguarding category. Big stages with good DI = Marth hate :D

I know I might be getting ahead of myself, but I'd like to put in some info on Roy while I'm here because I always, always fight a Roy. My best friend plays Roy and he hates my DK. Roy is one of the easiest characters to cargo u-air repeatedly. However, ending with a Giant Punch is iffy because if the Roy's smart, he'll counter. Usually hurting you alot. Roy's f-smash is also crazy strong if hit with a sweetspot, this means you should often approach with a b-air in order to stay out of his sweetspot. Avoid laggy moves because wavedash out of shield to f-smash can be scary. Another thing to watch out for is how often Roys use the d-tilt because it's their main combo move and can easily poke you. My 2 cents, again.

 

[Strong Badam]

that's kinda risky... he can stage-spike you and DK definitely does not have priority or frame advantage over marth's up-b. the best thing you can do is jump out & up-b him early on in his recovery, or bair him. otherwise I do a well-timed d-tilt that hits even if he sweet-spots. =P

 

[Ryofoong]

To each their own, but I've found myself low percent gimping marths with the Up-b guard. However, I do see the risk involved, but knowing all your options is good, too.

 

[MEXICAN]

Best way to edgeguard marth is to stand on the very edge of the stage facing away from the ledge and light shield while holding towards the edge. When you do, if marth's up b hits your shield, you'll automatically grab the ledge and he'll fall to die if he tries to sweetspot, and if he doesn't try to sweetspot, he'll have lag from landing, in which case, you'll have time to jump up with a d air, popping him up and setting you up for a f air or giant punch. My 3 cents. =D

 

[Strong Badam]

To each their own, but I've found myself low percent gimping marths with the Up-b guard. However, I do see the risk involved, but knowing all your options is good, too.

you can low-percent gimp him w/ downtilt more safely
don't get me wrong, up-b gimping ***** w/ DK, it's just against chars like Marth or Sheik it's just not very safe or reliable due to their fast Up-B's, and Sheik's gives her so much invincibility it's ridiculous.

i up-b gimp a lot of chars, though. just not Marth unless I'm facing a really bad Marth >_> mex's edgeguarding technique works, too. we both have different DK styles i guess but it seems to work for both of us. :O

 

[Ryofoong]

I believe that you and Mex's form of edgeguarding would be much more useful and more logical. I honestly don't fight many Marths and actually my best friend plays Roy and hates Marth. My experience comes from the few Marths that I've played at tournaments which isn't too many. I mainly find alot of spacies and those guys are easier to fight than Marth, IMO. Only problem I see with downtild gimping is that someone who knows their character can easily sweetspot even after getting hit, and it makes it hard to land the downtilt gimp repeatedly. Also, how would ledge-hopping to giant punch work in the case of an unsweetspoted Marth? I'm trying to incorporate the light shield sweetspot into my game, and I wanna know all my options with it.

 

[MEXICAN]

I believe that you and Mex's form of edgeguarding would be much more useful and more logical. I honestly don't fight many Marths and actually my best friend plays Roy and hates Marth. My experience comes from the few Marths that I've played at tournaments which isn't too many. I mainly find alot of spacies and those guys are easier to fight than Marth, IMO. Only problem I see with downtild gimping is that someone who knows their character can easily sweetspot even after getting hit, and it makes it hard to land the downtilt gimp repeatedly. Also, how would ledge-hopping to giant punch work in the case of an unsweetspoted Marth? I'm trying to incorporate the light shield sweetspot into my game, and I wanna know all my options with it.

My experience was beating the likes of M2K, Taj, and DSF's marths, so i know the matchup pretty well. I can tell you right now that your edgeguarding tactics will you get you killed against higher level marths. They'll usually forward b you if you get close and then up b you, which will usually stage spike you if you miss the tech. If you use the tactic that i said, you can just get a free attack, but that's only when they have to sweetspot. If they can easily make it back onto the stage with just a second jump, then it gets more complicated. If they're coming in high, i'd try a b air, if they're coming in low, i'd honestly just start charging my giant punch because you'll just get owned more often than not if you try to force something to happen.

 

[Airwalkerr]

Kk, I've updated the original post with the jist of the reliable info, thanks for not leaving me out to dry here guys. So I reckon its time for some Fox discussion, unless we have some more to add to old Marth. When my exams are over, i'll make a write up of my Fox match-up opinions, and you guys can pick apart my info and add more valid points once again. Lets get some **** back in this big old "**** Ape"!