Official Battlefield of the Gods - Pit / Dark Pit Matchup Discussion *Corrin, Samus, Shulk*

[Amadeus9]

It's not a big thing. Arrows don't contribute much to neutral against mk, especially when he's staying grounded most of the time anyways. Upperdash arm is definitely better than electroshock here but it's not a big difference.

Mk beats both angels somewhere between 5545 and 6040. Strong fundamental play and doing your best to avoid mks baits/punishes is how you win. Ftilt is really good against mk because it fully walls mk's approaches. Losing neutral ever is completely disastrous for pit though.

 

[Wintropy]

I'm inclined to agree that it's in MK's favour, for much the same reason as Falcon and Fox:

Pit can keep him out if he plays patiently and spaces him well, but MK has strong options in advantage and it's not fun to get put in that position.

If you can keep him out and make sure he's held down in neutral, it's serviceable (and it helps that MK doesn't have much in the way of pragmatic options in neutral except dash attack), but that's a pretty big commitment. Being fast, small and having great frame data and a disjoint makes it that much more irritating to keep him at a safe distance.

 

[Sensane]

I didn't explain because I had to sneak in a post during school and couldn't put in my two cents.

With Meta Knight, both Pits and MK have really good cqc. Both are really difficult to gimp, have really good air games, typically go in the air in neutral, and have excellent recoveries. What I came down to is the gimping itself. I consider arrows to be a really important factor in any MU because of how they can work. Because MK often camps while in the air, Pittoo's neutral is somewhat weakened and makes it harder to gimp MK because all of MK's specials can benefit his recovery, which is very unpredictable, so Pit's arrows can really help in reading his recovery. The arms I also consider relatively important in a matchup because some characters die faster horizontally than vertically and vice versa. For instance, Dark Pit would be better against Dedede than Pit would because of Dedede's amazing vertical endurance and poor horizontal mobility. True, for some characters, like Bowser Junior, it doesn't matter that much; it all depends on the characters you're fighting.

For Fox I don't think I need to say much: blasters hinder Pit's approach options, he can combo us hard with u-tilt, and he can kill us both horizontally and vertically.

Again, for Bowser Junior, it hardly matters which Pit you play as. But there's a clear winner in this matchup and that's PIt. Junior has a large hurtbox, heavy weight, a powerful projectile that our orbitars can handle without much of an issue (especially since the cannonball has some ending lag), and his recovery is easily gimpable, especially if Junior can't snap onto the ledge properly. Junior's endlag in some of his moves can make orbitars a little more useful (yes, I still use them in neutral; it's an underrated tool).

So overall, I still stand by my MU scores, except for Dark Pit vs MK; that one I'd have to say (45:55)

 

[warionumbah2]

Diving into MKs advantage state against [Dark]Pit: Uair combo confirms are very forgiving on [Dark]Pit(in terms of percents and overall difficulty in following their DI), his fall speed, hurtbox, gravity and weight are very similar to Marth's. Pit is also susceptible to DA to Nado which is 100% guaranteed to get you to those kill percents.

There's no reason to go Dark Pit against MK, arrows don't impact the MU as much as one would think via text. Upperdash arm is much more rewarding, running past Mks shield and using Upperdash arm to punish his shield drop is a strong tool to have.

Against Pit its in MKs favor. MK has a clear advantage over Dark Pit however which is thankfully a general conscious atm.

Edit: I want to abandon the thought of even MUs existing outside dittos, so i edited my post.

 

[Mr Moosebones]

Hey dudes, bjr player (best in ontario, arguably Canada but there's no good way to prove that as of yet) and tech pioneer here
/notsohumblebrag

Pit/Dark Pit has a distict advantage over bjr. Pit is just generally a better character and has the ability to drastically outmanouever bjr in neutral. While bjr will get more off of punishes Pit has magnitudes more opportunities to actually capitalize on said punishes. Lots of bjrs setups are wonky vs Pit; his weight and fall speed get him out of some mid% combos a lot of other characters can't. That's not to say bjr is helpless or anything, you just need to know the matchup well; his kill confirms work the same way as they do on everyone else.

Offstage play is always an interesting topic when talking about bjr matchups. He's got a pretty insane edgeguard game and can go super deep vs characters with hitbox-less up b's like Pit without much fear. Expect constant stagespike attempts and item play when you try to recover low.

Pit's recovery makes him semi frustrating to play against when hes' on the offense though. He can go deep vs bjr too and at low%s nair will stop bjr from getting his up b back after getting hit so the gimp potential is real. Also bjr's options from the ledge are super ass and Pit has no problem dealing with them.

I've noticed some misinformation that I've got to clarify though. I saw people talking about reflecting the cannonball and use or orbitars in neutral vs bjr and I gotta say man... If youre playing vs a bjr who is actually using the cannonball your matchup experience isn't particularly valid. Not only that, the thing is that bjr's side b has heavy armour on the bottom half of the cart, so if you sit there and reflect a mechakoopa bjr can drive right through it and speed up on you for a guaranteed punish. Reflectors aren't super useful vs bjr.

Anyway tldr; Pit/Dark Pit have an advantage over bjr. Use your superior mobility and frame data to fight him from a distance until you can close the gap and get some hard throw combo punishes.

Pit/Dark Pit win with a hard 55:45 or soft 60:40

 

[UberMadman]

What's happening, baby faces? Seems I've been summoned to discuss the Jr. matchup.

I'm inclined to put the matchup in Pit(oo)'s favor. Neutral is where Bowser Jr. struggles the most, and thanks to the Pit duos' decent frame data, disjoints, and maneuverability, they can consistently beat him in the neutral. At a distance you can tack on arrow damage and Jr. can't so much about it, but I wouldn't advise giving Jr. TOO much distance because then he can lay down a Mechakoopa, which he can either pick up to use like a link bomb or leave walking around to create potential combo setups. (Setting it down has too much endlag for him to use it up close without getting punished.) As Mr Moosebones noted, reflecting his walking Mechakoopa does little good because Jr. can drive right through it for a mere 1% or so, or just wait until it's about to detonate and pick it up. (You can do that too, by the way; if his Mechakoopa is flashing, it doesn't have a walking hitbox, and picking it up resets the explosion timer.) Speaking of the kart, that's how Bowser Jr. wracks up the majority of the damage, so if you see him approaching with it, short hop fair him, as that should prevent you from hitting with it or jump canceling it. Bowser Jr. excels at going deep for kills, so a good Jr. should be able to get early gimps on the Pit duo by hitting you out of your recovery, but Jr's up-b itself can be gimped by hitting him out of it with a light hit. Both Pit's could nair him offstage and fastfall so the final hit doesn't connect, and vanilla Pit could probably snipe him with an arrow to send him plummeting, though I imagine it would depend how much you charge it for and what percent Jr. is at. Most important to note about the Jr matchup is that he gains a kill confirm at around 80-95% where he can Side-B into you, jump cancel it, Up-B, and then use the hammer swing. This is consistent and can't really be DI'd away from, so I recommend playing reeeeeeeally lame while you are in that percent range and not letting him land kart. After that point he gains it again about 30% later if he uses the slower variation of kart, but that one is even easier to avoid.

So yeah, Bowser Jr is a character who uses high damaging combos and strings to get his opponents into kill range, but if you know how to take advantage of his neutral, he struggles a lot in the matchup, which is why I think that the Pits hold a slight advantage.

Lastly, here is a visual representation of Bowser Jr's gameplan versus the Pits. This is a video of my boy Tweek, possibly the best Bowser Jr. in the world, versus a Dark Pit who goes by Solcast. He lets Tweek consistently beat him in neutral, effectively handing him the set.

Note how much damage Tweek is able to gain by landing his Kart - I can't possibly emphasize enough how important to his gameplan this move is. He can't land this on you in the air or if you shield it, so respect this move and you'll be fine.

Sorry this is such a one-sided set, I couldn't find another one of Tweek vs one of the Pits.

 

[Top Boss]

Fox main here... yeahhh pit(oo) kinda gets wrecked by him. Probably 60:40 Fox.
Pit(oo) rely on grabs, which Fox can avoid very easily and punish. Fox can bait them into moves because of mediocre frame data, and just go ham. Basically, the hardest thing for Fox is when he gets offstage. You have to make sure you recover well, or else you can get hit by a strong move, like forward smash. Pit having a strong forward throw doesn't really make this situation any better for fox. But yeah, Fox wins easily if he isn't forced offstage.

 

[Sensane]

Very nice analysis; I'd have to agree with you there. Though Pit would do beter against Fox because of his weight. Dark Pit vs Fox is almost a guaranteed win for Fox.

 

[ReRaze]

Once again I seem to be the outcast here. I have no trouble at all with MK and Fox and infact find them easier than bowser jr. Maybe it's a thing with the way Australian's play also maybe because I play much more with foxes and metaknight than I do with bowser jr (Some of my closest friends and the people I play with often main fox and metaknight, heck I've got about 5 friends maining fox and 3 using MK)

For Fox I don't think I need to say much: blasters hinder Pit's approach options, he can combo us hard with u-tilt, and he can kill us both horizontally and vertically.

If the fox wants to laser camp, spam him with aerial arrows, lasers can't curve up. Arrows may not go through platforms but if there are platforms he can't laser camp you anyway. Also lasers don't stop you approaching because they have no hitstun. Utilt is easily escapable by jumping or simply mashing A, so that nair wil interrupt him and you can followup with a jab (works everytime :3). Fox doesn't have many kill confirms, especially if you know how to DI his nair and dair. I don't find fox killing me that much horizontally bar the occasional bair. I often find myself able to live up to the percent ranges where fthrow will kill at like 90% near the ledge. Just don't fall victim to his uair traps, use your jumps and airdodges wisely and you will be fine.

I didn't explain because I had to sneak in a post during school and couldn't put in my two cents.

With Meta Knight, both Pits and MK have really good cqc. Both are really difficult to gimp, have really good air games, typically go in the air in neutral, and have excellent recoveries. What I came down to is the gimping itself. I consider arrows to be a really important factor in any MU because of how they can work. Because MK often camps while in the air, Pittoo's neutral is somewhat weakened and makes it harder to gimp MK because all of MK's specials can benefit his recovery, which is very unpredictable, so Pit's arrows can really help in reading his recovery. The arms I also consider relatively important in a matchup because some characters die faster horizontally than vertically and vice versa. For instance, Dark Pit would be better against Dedede than Pit would because of Dedede's amazing vertical endurance and poor horizontal mobility.
So overall, I still stand by my MU scores, except for Dark Pit vs MK; that one I'd have to say (45:55)

Pit beats metaknight offstage from my experience. Metaknight can generally kill offstage using nair or bair both which have quite a bit of endlag. Metaknight's drill is also beaten by fair. Up B is beaten or can trade with fair (I prefer trading because it leads to this interesting situation where metaknight is semi spiked and before he can up b again we can throw out another fair to semi spike him again....). Metaknight can recover safely with down B but that's limited. On the other hand most of metaknight's aerials have horizontal knockback meaning we often can recover safely with side b. Just don't make a mistake against metaknight around 20-30% and you will be fine. Not to mention that metaknight dies extremely early to upperdash arm and with MK's often looking for dash attack the super armour is really handy. Also if metaknight starts his uair string try mixup your Di left and right i find it often gets me out of it, also aim for the edge of the stage so if metaknight whiffs his up b guardian orbitars can be a brutal punish

They both have great advantage states but they aren't as safe as us and can't do much to get into that advantage state if we are careful. Spacing is really helpful in both of these MU's especially in the neutral. The way I play both MU's is by starting off with a "get off me" and then proceeding to pressure them such that they don't get the chance to gain back momentum and dictate the match. I'd like to think both MU's are even but considering alot of people think otherwise I feel like I need to play more Foxes and MKs

 

[EpicSonicLatios]

Reporting from the fox boards here.

I would have to say this MU is in fox's favor. His frame data and speed advantages make up for pit's disjoints, and arrows aren't as useful in this MU.

In the neutral, generally arrows are not a good option for pit because fox can shine even uncharged arrows on reaction and immediately cancel his shine into a roll or jump upon being hit with the arrow. I would advise against using these except when fox is recovering. Your auto cancelled aerials are pretty good here, as it is hard for fox to use his frame 4 dash attack to punish lag against these moves, because there isn't any to speak of. Despite this, he can still catch you right as you land if he can get in riiiight outside your range and time a punish well. Try not to land with aerials, because fox is amazing at making you pay for this. Your dash attack is really good here, as it has amazing range, is disjointed, and is hard for us to challenge. You can use this to punish laggy moves, or catch us retreating in the neutral, something that many fox's like to do in order to create punish opportunities. Try not to use too many grabs in the neutral-a well timed attack will knock you right out of the grab, potentially giving fox a follow up. However, if you see the opponent trying to shield your aerials or your dash attack a lot, they will often be caught off guard by your grab, which can allow you to rack up good damage.

Offstage play is very interesting in this MU. Pit's arrows can ruin his jump and illusion, and set you up to gimp fire fox, but smart fox's will take the arrows and conserve their jump, using the end lag of the arrows to make a quick jump+ side B to the ledge. Pit has a spike in his dair, but it is often hard to land the spike hitbox. I believe that pits's fair is the best tool here. If you catch fox really deep, it could KO, and if you force him back, you rack up some damage at worst, and at best secure a gimp on fire fox, making it a favorable scenario for you. Bair could also work offstage with more raw power than fair to secure kills, and dair is often a risk worth taking, as if it doesn't spike, it could still stage spike or hit fox further offstage.

As far as fox is concerned, pit's recovery is pretty easy to hit if he is recovering from below the stage. If you are using up-b, watch out for bair stage spikes, which could be an insta-KO on stages with slanted undersides. If fox lands a bair at mid-high percent off stage, and gets back to the edge while you are forced to Up-b, you can be killed by fox continuing to hit you out of Up-B with bair, then regrabbing the ledge and using another bair until you die from either a blast zone KO off the side, or not being able to recover. This is something that should be looked into more for the interest of both parties in this MU. You should be able to escape this by using Up-b ASAP, or mixing up recovery angles to hopefully confuse the opponent. Fox can also use his fair to footstool combo to KO if he catches pit low enough, and the footstool is GUARANTEED if fox lands enough fair hits before fast-falling. Generally, if possible, it is much safer for pit to recover with side B to the ledge here, as I'm pretty sure that fox's lasers are not an effective tool at stopping it as other projectiles are (clarification?)

That's all I've got for now, but I may add more later. My opinion is a 55-45 advantage for fox.

 

[Sensane]

That f-air gimp sounds very unsafe because we still have a chance to footstool fox. Also, if fox is gimping us with b-air than what we can do is punish with a properly spaced side b. Maybe even get a stage spike kill if we're lucky and/or close enough.

 

[CHOMPY]

Here are some of things I have concerns with the characters I feel we should really go over

• What is the best way to deal with Metaknights fsmash?
• How do you avoid from getting uair'd by Metaknight?
• How do we bait Metaknight to grab or dash attack?
• When Metaknight dair camps, what do you do in that situation?

• What is the best way to approach Fox's lasers
• How do you handle Fox's dair?
• Are there any moves that Pit can hit when Fox is using the side B?
• How to land safely after getting juggled by Fox.
• When to safely approach Fox.

• How we can pick up the mecha koopas
• What to do when Bowser Jr. uses the kart (side B)
• How to properly edgeguard Bowser Jr. out of his up B
• When Bowser Jr. tries to edgeguard you when he is usmash, how do you get around it?

 

[EpicSonicLatios]

No, it is impossible to footstool fox out of the fair if it is executed properly. It has enough hitstun to guarantee that if the fox player mashes jump out of the fair to footstool ASAP, and lands 3-4 fair hits, it is impossible to footstool fox because you are still in hitstun, and you cannot footstool someone when you are in hitstun. Therefore, fox has a guaranteed footstool. Also, regarding bair not working due to side B, the only time fox would ever use bair is because pit is in a situation where side B itself is not a good recovery option. If you do it in these situations, the pit player will likely die from being too low after the hit. If fox is trying to bair you above the stage or at the stage level, side B beats it, but fox really shouldn't rely on it at those heights for that very reason. Besides, if he is far enough offstage, a well aware fox player can easily tech the side B.

 

[Sensane]

Here are some of things I have concerns with the characters I feel we should really go over

• What is the best way to deal with Metaknights fsmash?
• How do you avoid from getting uair'd by Metaknight?
• How do we bait Metaknight to grab or dash attack?
• When Metaknight dair camps, what do you do in that situation?

• What is the best way to approach Fox's lasers
• How do you handle Fox's dair?
• Are there any moves that Pit can hit when Fox is using the side B?
• How to land safely after getting juggled by Fox.
• When to safely approach Fox.

• How we can pick up the mecha koopas
• What to do when Bowser Jr. uses the kart (side B)
• How to properly edgeguard Bowser Jr. out of his up B
• When Bowser Jr. tries to edgeguard you when he is usmash, how do you get around it?

• I don't think it's that avoidable; MK's f-smash is surprisingly safe on block due to its low endlag for a smash attack. So just try to space your side b as I think it deals more knockback and damage when it counters an attack.
• MK's u-air can only hit above him, and we're gifted with a solid short hop that naturally prevents us from getting u-aired. Use different DI every time you get comboed.
• His dash grab has a good amount of endlag when missed and can't grab characters who are short hopping, so just hopping backwards after a dash or a RAR will be enough bait. As for dash attack, it goes so far and so fast, so running away in any form won't help and side b has too much startup. It's a really difficult move to properly bait.
• I've honestly never d-air camped with MK when I subbed him, nor have I seen anyone else do so.

• Use full hop arrows. Unfortunately, Dark Pit can't really approach them properly, but Pit can get in there with ease and Fox can't reflect them in time.
• Orbitars. Use..........the...........orbitars.......I know none of you Pitties like them very much, but Fox's d-air has enough landing lag from a short hop d-air for us to use the orbitars and punish him with a grab, forward smash, or anything that comes out quickly.
• I think our side b would work against it. Other than that, just shield and punish. It may require reading depending on whether or not you get a power shield, but still.
• Once again: Orbitars! They can support our landing against thirsty jugglers. But due to Fox's falling speed, just tap the button.
• Arrows?

• Jump cancelled air dodge. It's also the safest way since I think it has a short enough duration to safely land on the ground. And if you don't grab it, it still won't hit you.
• His side b is actually surprisingly not that transcendant, so there are a decent amount of options to deal with it. Using our side b may help. Maybe even a forward smash read.
• Try to knock him out of his car with a f-air or a b-air. The car is predictable in terms of recovery, especially since Junior can't even air dodge after jumping out of the car for several frames. Junior players almost ALWAYS recover from below regardless, so it shouldn't be that difficult to predict. Going for a stage spike will help the most.
• It's actually difficult to smash DI out of his u-smash, so just try to recover low or space a side b towards the ledge, which is how we already recover naturally.

 

[Sensane]

No, it is impossible to footstool fox out of the fair if it is executed properly. It has enough hitstun to guarantee that if the fox player mashes jump out of the fair to footstool ASAP, and lands 3-4 fair hits, it is impossible to footstool fox because you are still in hitstun, and you cannot footstool someone when you are in hitstun. Therefore, fox has a guaranteed footstool. Also, regarding bair not working due to side B, the only time fox would ever use bair is because pit is in a situation where side B itself is not a good recovery option. If you do it in these situations, the pit player will likely die from being too low after the hit. If fox is trying to bair you above the stage or at the stage level, side B beats it, but fox really shouldn't rely on it at those heights for that very reason. Besides, if he is far enough offstage, a well aware fox player can easily tech the side B.

Good to know; I didn't know his f-air put you in hitstun. But it is impossible to tech if Fox gets hit by the side b right next to the wall.

 

[Amadeus9]

• What is the best way to deal with Metaknights fsmash?
• How do you avoid from getting uair'd by Metaknight?
• How do we bait Metaknight to grab or dash attack?
• When Metaknight dair camps, what do you do in that situation?

• This move is only punishable during start-up and you are poking the bear by attempting to do so. Don't attempt to punish fsmash.
• Everyone asks this, everyone says they have some magic way to get out but it's just not true. The only way to avoid MK's uair combos is to avoid the confirm while you are in the danger percents. Top level Metaknights will only hit you if it helps set up a confirm so... it's not easy. At top, or even high level you should honestly just accept that you will get death combo'd at least once during a set and don't let it get to you too bad, just play your neutral smart and safe and take the advantages you can get. Short hopping to avoid confirms isn't that great either, MK has a really short short hop and can easily punish a short hop with a short hop uair that will confirm into a deadly combo. In my experience, Pit's short hop dair is decent at keeping mk off you but it's pretty easy to read and punish.
• Same as how you bait anyone else, I guess haha. Top and High level mks will use primarily grounded movement tech with dtilt/ftilt/dair to play a footsies/spacing game and only use dash attack if it will confirm, dash grab reads at low percent lead to upsmash or worse things if you're below death combo percent. Can't really teach you how to bait it's just a fundamentals thing, at least it's good to know what an mk will do generally.
• Dair camping isn't strong, but using dair aggressively is pretty good, it forces tech situations and is also really safe, if the mk misspaces usmash is ok, wouldn't recommend tho, its not reallyworth punishing just because of how safe it is.

 

[Sensane]

• Try to knock him out of his car with a f-air or a b-air. The car is predictable in terms of recovery, especially since Junior can't even air dodge after jumping out of the car for several frames.

My bad; Junior actually CAN airdodge out of a clown car jump, but that's still unsafe for the Junior player depending on where he is, where you would be, and what you would normally do.

 

[Mr Moosebones]

• Jump cancelled air dodge. It's also the safest way since I think it has a short enough duration to safely land on the ground. And if you don't grab it, it still won't hit you.
• His side b is actually surprisingly not that transcendant, so there are a decent amount of options to deal with it. Using our side b may help. Maybe even a forward smash read.
• Try to knock him out of his car with a f-air or a b-air. The car is predictable in terms of recovery, especially since Junior can't even air dodge after jumping out of the car for several frames. Junior players almost ALWAYS recover from below regardless, so it shouldn't be that difficult to predict. Going for a stage spike will help the most.
• It's actually difficult to smash DI out of his u-smash, so just try to recover low or space a side b towards the ledge, which is how we already recover naturally.

1) you mean just jumping and airdodging immediately right? I've never heard of a "jump canceled air dodge" as the terminology doesn't really make sense but I assume this is what you mean.

This along with dash attacks are the easiest way to pick up the mechakoopa. You can also powershield it as doing this will cause the mk to stay in place for a second, allowing you to easily pick it up.

2) side b is extremely easy to deal with. I don't even play Pit and I can tell you that Ftilt, Fsmash, arrows and grabbing will outright beat it, not to mention if bjr hits your shield and tries to keep driving you then have access to nair and bair oos to punish.

3) If the jrs you're playing constantly recover low then they're not very good. It's fundamental to good jr play to mix up your recovery constantly. Grounded arrows will not do much good vs a high recovery but if you were to camp a platform and fire from above you should be able to easy snipe him out of his side b. Nair is an easymode edgeguarding tool if bjr tries to recover low.

4) bjr's edgeguard game is one of his best assets. Upsmash at the ledge is an extremely potent tool. You have to be more patient than the bjr player as he can't do much while you're still actually on the ledge. Wait out a would-be punish or bait one and then you can get on stage safely.

 

[Sensane]

Yeah I meant a jump then air dodge; sorry I didn't make that clear.

 

[Wintropy]

Not relevant to the current discussion, but I noticed Sheik's score in the OP has been changed from -1 to -2. Why so?

I'm not gonna pretend the matchup's in our favour or even, well, even, but think -2 is a bit of a stretch. I recently fought the best Sheik in my country, and while it's an uphill battle for Pit, I think we've got the tools to deal with most of her shenanigans. It's not an outright curbstomp as it is with certain other characters.

On a more relevant note~

Pretty interesting and recent Dark Pit / Fox matchup. Note how Crabby plays the neutral very patiently and GX2 frustrates him with the Shine edgeguard -> d-smash kill.

There's a couple of games of Pittoo vs Ryu there too, but I think Crabby gives GX2 way too much room to breathe in the final game. Either way, may be good footage to document whenever we get to the Ryu matchup~

 

[EleH]

Pit(oo) wins against because of frame data and Jr.'s height and weight.

The and MU's are difficult, but can be won. We can handle MK a bit better thanks to his slow air mobility and stubby range, but Fox is hard because he kills us from bairs and utilt > uair. That, and Fox is much faster than MK.

 

[CHOMPY]

The way the matchup works is all about playing the bait and punish game. Not only does Fox have a faster running speed that Pit, but his attacks come out faster as well. One false move and Fox can easily rush in with a usmash in your face. GG. Fox can also camp and shoot lasers, while you Pit is forced to approach with a dash grab/dash attack. Being that Fox is a light weight fast faller, Pit can juggle him around until the combo ends.

Neutral

The way the matchups works is Fox is a rush down character that can get into your face at any given moment. Every Fox player is different, so you can't expect the same Fox player to do the same thing each time. Therefore, what a Pit player should be doing is scout how Fox approaches by tossing out empty nairs as a bait to make Fox eventually dash attack. When Fox dash attacks, you can go for either ftilt, shield grab, or 3-hit jab out of shield. Don't be too hasty with the dash grabs and dash attacks. Take your time and try to react to that Fox will do and play the game out accordingly. When Fox is trying to land, he will sometimes use the side B to avoid being above Pit. Fortunately, Pit is fast enough to be able to catch his side b landing with a dash attack. Once your in kill %, what you need to watch out for are Fox's Uair, usmash, and Dair. Don't worry about getting grabbed because Fox has no kill throws, but I would not put up your shield when your in lower percentage.

Dair

Fox's Dair comes down really quick and it's really hard to punish it, even on shield sometimes. Luckily we have Pits disjointed usmash to repel it. Be careful, Fox may use his second jump to fake you out and then go for the falling Dair to usmash for the kill. Another option we can do to punish it is using our jabs to pop him up in the air. If Fox tries to cross up where your facing the opposite side, the best thing you can do is either respect it, or use the dsmash with strict timing.


Offstage

Offstage is basically the name of Pit's game. Once Fox enters Pit's battle turf, its curtains for Fox. Make sure you carefully check to see if Fox has used up all of his jumps before firing off any arrows. The arrows can stop Fox's side B on startup, and the same thing goes for Fox's up B. Keep shooting the arrows until you sense that Fox can't back on stage, and then go for the dair spike to secure the stock. If you angle the dair hit properly, Pit could pop him up at a weird angler stage spike > footstool > dair for the spike. Also, if Fox is recovering below the ledge, go for the fair. The one thing I haven't been able to test out is if Pit could use the nair to cover Fox's side B?

When recovering with Pit, watch out for Fox's dsmash, so try not to regrab the ledge. Fox can also stage bair stage spike you, so be prepared to tech it. Most of the time, Fox could come down and fair to footstool for the gimp. Fortunately, Pit has multiple jumps and a god like recovery to negate that action.

Stages

Ideally, you'll want to take Fox to a stage that doesn't have much room to run around, like Battlefield or Dreamland. Normally, Pit can excel really well at Final Destination, but with Fox having a really strong bait and punish game along with a good hit and run game would only help Fox out. Same goes for Duck Hunt, but worse. Smashville is alright, but Fox can easily camp on the platform and drop down through the platform with either a safe nair/dair. Thanks to the low ceiling at Town and City, Fox can score kills earlier with usmash than most other stages.

Overall, its one of those matchups that on paper it seems even because people only focus on Fox's biggest weakness, which is recovering back on stage. However, when Fox is on stage, he can fake players out, juggle them for days. Pit has the disjointed hit boxes, but his attacks don't come out nearly as quick. Bascially what it comes right down to is taking your taking and not get hasty. It can be winnable, but it will be a uphill battle for Pit, that's for sure.

40-60 Fox's favor.

 

[CHOMPY]

Seeing as though this is the last day of discussing Metaknight, Bowser Jr., and Fox and it seems like the discussion has been dying out, I am going to announce the official matchup ratios and see what you guys think.

-1 (35:65)
-1 (40:60)
+1 (60 :40)

How do you guys feel about those matchup ratios?

Are there any characters that we should discuss starting tomorrow for next weeks discussion?

 

[ReRaze]

Seeing as though this is the last day of discussing Metaknight, Bowser Jr., and Fox and it seems like the discussion has been dying out, I am going to announce the official matchup ratios and see what you guys think.

-1 (35:65)
-1 (40:60)
+1 (60 :40)

How do you guys feel about those matchup ratios?

Are there any characters that we should discuss starting tomorrow for next weeks discussion?

Metaknight isn't that bad of a MU is he?

Should we do a vote for next characters to discuss? top 3 chars get discussed.

 

[CHOMPY]

Thats a good idea. From the comments I have been reading about Metaknight, it seems like Metaknight has the edge over Pit in so many ways. Faster running speed, has the stairway to heaven combo, air camps, better frame data, stronger confirm kills, and better bait and punish options. I mean we could say at best 40:60, but it would still be in MK's favor.

 

[ReRaze]

So how about we have a week before deciding who to discuss?

I'll vote for Robin, Link and Marth since im curious about swordfight MU's

 

[Koiba]

Um I'll vote for



And real sorry about the summaries. I'll try and get them done~

 

[Mr. ShinyUmbreon]

I'm with Koiba with the next characters to do.
I'm very unfamiliar with the Ness matchup
Sonic is always a pain

 

[ixos]

I vote Link, Robin, and Peach.

 

[CHOMPY]

We have all day today to discuss what characters we will be discussing. Starting tomorrow will be the new week of discussing the characters.

 

[EleH]

,, and

Don't ask, I just wanna know what you other Pit(oo) mains think.

 

[Sensane]

Ma boi . I'll also vote for and .

 

[Wintropy]

i think they'd make for interesting and relevant discussions.

 

[CHOMPY]

Time to start the new weeks character discussion on





Let the matchup discussion begin!


Koiba How are the summaries for Metaknight, Fox, and Bowser Jr. coming along?

 

[Koiba]

Koiba How are the summaries for Metaknight, Fox, and Bowser Jr. coming along?

Well I'm pretty far behind, I haven't even started them yet ^^;;





Anyway for the Link MU I'm rather curious on how many people are with or against orbitars.

 

[ReRaze]

Well I'm pretty far behind, I haven't even started them yet ^^;;
Anyway for the Link MU I'm rather curious on how many people are with or against orbitars.

Use orbitars for arrows only from far away. bombs should be caught early if not just avoided. boomerang shouldn't be rflected, jump over them and just use wind to your advantage or avoid completely. Link's projectiles have very little endlag so GO's aren't much use. Link is alot easier to outcamp than toonlink.

 

[Wintropy]

don't bother using orbies. unless link is daft enough to stand still and charge an arrow with the intention of hitting the orbies, it's not going to yield good reward. moreover, link can bait you into putting up the orbies and then hit with the arrow during cooldown, since he can hold his arrow indefinitely. that and, as ReRaze said, link doesn't have much cooldown on his specials, so the chances of using it are practically non-existent in high-level play.

a good link will not let you reflect their projectiles. don't bother. powershielding is an infinitely safer and more practical option.

do not hold shield indefinitely. that's just begging to be punished with link's tether grab. powershield between projectiles and try to approach or force link to approach, depending on the current situation. neutral in this matchup is about stage control and responding to constant pressure from projectiles. link needs to set up with projectiles and zone you into an unsafe position in neutral, since his high-commitment moves can't be thrown out relentlessly. patience is vital in this matchup. just don't be frustrated and get impatient due to pressure and know how to navigate the wall of projectiles you will no doubt have to fight through.

edit: very brief rundown of how i'd suggest pit react to projectiles (note that powershielding or spotdodging are options for most projectiles, but not necessarily the best option; if possible, the best option is often to just not be in range of the projectile, so you need to know how link can zone and control the stage if you decide to avoid it outright):

- arrows: powershield, spotdodge or outcamp with arrow-jumping. powershielding negates arrows and can be used to approach link. the purely horizontal trajectory means you can't get camped out in the air and multiple jumps mean pit can camp out link more effectively (if he wants to commit to arrow-camping, which is kinda silly but whatevs~) and force him to use a different option. it can be used to zone you on the ground if you don't powershield, so if he forces you to jump, be wary of boomerang and z-air punish. camping tool with good range, but predictable trajectory. very rarely charged fully or held, more useful for mid-range pressure and zoning.

- boomerang: powershield, spotdodge or jump. powershielding is, again, a good way to beat boomerang's zoning potential and approach link. the ability to aim boomerang's trajectory means arrow-jumping isn't really an option. jumping over it is a safe option if you're out of link's range, just be wary of zoning, airdodge baiting and z-air. i would advise against riding the wind unless you're sure about hat you're doing and ho to approach with it, since it's a very easy setup for link if you get pulled right back into his space. useful for damage, setups and zoning by limiting your movement options, but it doesn't have the rapid camping potential of arrows.

- bomb: shield (debatably better than powershielding), spotdodge or grab. powershielding the bomb itself is not as effective here if it's just the bomb being thrown at you, since the bomb will remain active if you powershield (in other words, it will just bounce off shield and continue to explode); on the other hand, default shielding it will render it inactive, so bear that in mind when you respond to it. try grab it if you can, practice air-grabbing or catching it with another move (dash attack is a good choice if you're within range to punish link); just remember to release it before it explodes, and bear in mind that link may set up a bomb-grab to prevent you from immediately using your next move (since the input for normal move or grab will throw the bomb instead). this is more of a trap than a true projectile, as the timed hitbox means it can still be a threat even if you shield it. keep an eye on how bombs are used, as it is a strong embellishment to link's projectile game.

edit: did some research on bomb properties. it's a bit complex, so check this thread for further information.

- z-air: powershield or spotdodge. not a true projectile, but worth mentioning. z-air is a low-commitment, high-range option that can be used to space and followup from projectile zoning. approaching link can be difficult due to z-air, and it helps him approach safely himself, and it can be used at the ledge to keep you from punishing his getup. a good spacing tool that you need to keep track of.

- grab: spotdodge or roll behind. again, not a true projectile, but worth mentioning. link's tether grab has good range, is reasonably fast and sets up for a fast pummel, u-throw -> u-air combos and u-throw itself can kill at just higher than 100%. if you're being zoned with projectiles and link has good stage control, he can throw out grab as a surprise option and get great reward off of it. be aware of its range and try to avoid situations here link can get the grab (e.g. if you shield too often or whiff an unsafe move). mix up your powershields with spotdodges to keep him guessing and make it difficult to punish with grab. if you can roll behind him hen he uses it, you have an opening to punish. not something he will use very often, but worth bearing in mind.

 

[Mr. ShinyUmbreon]

link's frame data otherwise isn't very good. Though he does have a few good Cqc options. Try not to shield too much in mid-range, you can get grabbed and take an easy 25% for it. It's important to close the gap between you and him so we can d-throw to upsmash him instead.

 

[Wintropy]

updated my initial post with some ideas for responding to individual projectiles.

it's been a while since i've fought a good link, so i might be a bit off with my notes, but a friend of mine used to main him and ireland is full of links, so i should be able to get some matches in if people want feedback?

 

[Sensane]

Link wouldn't be a good idea to use orbitars against; even if you reflect the projectile, his shield may invalidate it and just make us of the orbitars pointless. Instead, use them against some of his aerials due to the ending lag on some of them. I'd also say that upperdash/electroshock may kill early if one of his moves hits your super armor. I killed a Link earlier than normal by doing that.