Battlefield and FD in competitive 64?

[Metallinatus]

I was thinking for some time of making this thread when I saw the new poll about 1P stages playable in VS mode, so that helped me decide to finally do it now.

What I want is to ask what you people think of the idea of using hacked Smash 64 cartridges or ROMs where you can choose Battlefield and Final Destination from the Fighting Polygon Team and the Master Hand fights in tournaments. I don't know if that was already tried before, in which case, sorry if I'm beating a dead horse with that post

I think that having those two stages available could change a lot the metagame of 64, as the most "neutral" stage you can choose in VS is Dream Land, and, well.... it doesn't do the job as well as those two in my opinion.

So, what do you guys think? Is it a good idea? Has it been tried before?

 

[Shears]

I think @ AthensHorseParty is trying it for a tournament.

 

[caneut]

I think @ AthensHorseParty is trying it for a tournament.

 

[Metallinatus]

Are you and Athens the same user? Are you trying it? Sorry, I'm not very sure of anything by the comments

 

[Saltsizzle]

Are you and Athens the same user? Are you trying it? Sorry, I'm not very sure of anything by the comments

He is referring to this thread.

Also I know that cobr has some thoughts/experience about this question, but i believe he is banned on here. You might have better luck posting this question to r/smashbros or r/ssb64

 

[Technical_Knockout]

i prefer having platforms so fd doesn't appeal to me... battlefield might be cool.

 

[Metallinatus]

He is referring to this thread.

Also I know that cobr has some thoughts/experience about this question, but i believe he is banned on here. You might have better luck posting this question to r/smashbros or r/ssb64

Well, ok, but I just wanted to know what the people here on Smashboards thought of that, I do not exactly want to start something, but I like the idea.

 

[clydeaker]

I like the idea. Although I'm no expert on the subject of hacking, I know its possible to access these stages with cheat codes, the only problem is that they freeze at the end, there hard to access, and have a few multilayer bugs and issues.

If you were able able to fix/patch these stages so they could be easily accessed on the stage select screen, removed freezing, they ended with the results screen and went back to character select, fixed the spawn locations (if they are an issue), fixed timer issues like on final destination, and fixed any other minor bugs I would love this.

this is kind of like what people did to Brawl with mods like Brawl +, Brawl -, Balanced Brawl, and Project M... but to a lesser extent. To my knowledge Project M became popular when new characters [and stages] were added. Brawl - and Balanced Brawl aren't very popular in tournaments compared to Project M. So maybe by fixing and adding stages this could become very successful.

The stages I would love to see for SSB tournament play would be:

Spoiler

- Dream Land (no wind):

- Remove wind, although this isn't necessary for competitive play.​

- Battlefield:

- Make it easily accessible without cheat devices.
- Fix the glitch where characters are auto killed if they smash DI into the stage.
- Make it functional is VS mode.
- Replace Sector Z on stage select screen.​

- Final Destination:

- Make it easily accessible without cheat devices.
- Maybe fix the background so it will change like in the 1P Game, although this isn't necessary.
- Prevent crashing.
- Fix stage so it can handle more than 2 players without crashing.
- Fix results screen outcome so it won't go to the continue screen if P2, P3, or P4 win. make it go to the results screen.
- Make it functional in VS mode.
- Replace Saffron City on stage select screen.​

- Metal Mario's Stage:

- Make it easily accessible without cheat devices.
- Make it functional in VS mode.
- Replace Planet Zebes on stage select screen.​

- Tutorial Stage:

- Make it easily accessible without cheat devices.
- Make it functional in VS mode.
- Increase the left blast line away fro the stage to be even with the right blast line.
- Maybe increase the top blast line a bit.
- Make the left edge grab-able so it will match the right edge.
- Replace Mushroom Kingdom on stage select screen.​

- Yoshi's Island no clouds:

- Note: this is technically a different stage than Yoshi's Island (VS Mode) because by default it's has a different access code number, the blast lines are closer and more centered around the stage, and there aren't any clouds.
- Make it easily accessible without cheat devices.
- Make it functional in VS mode.
- Replaces Yoshi's Island (VS mode) on the stage select screen.​

- Congo Jungle:

- Stays the same.​

- Hyrule Castle (no tornado):

- Remove wind.​

- Peach's Castle:

- Stays the same​

Character specific hacks I would love to see:

Spoiler

I don't want any character balances or changes at all. the game is already fairly balanced as is. No phisics changes ether.

I know this is kind of a stretch, but what if you you hacked the game to include the Fighting Polygon Team as alternate character costumes kind of like how Project M has alternate costumes. Metal Mario would also be a cool alternate costume for Mario as well.

I would also love to see Metal Mario as a playable legal character unless he turns out to be OP, if he is overpowered it would still be cool to see Metal Mario, Giant Donkey Kong, and if possible Master Hand as playable character easter eggs that are banned it tournament play, kind of like Giga Bowser in Project M or the Master Hand Glitch in Melee.

Here are some neat threads that could help you with this.
- http://smashboards.com/threads/gameshark-code-collection.341009/
- http://smashboards.com/threads/what-beta-and-1p-stages-should-be-playable-in-vs-mode.404562/
- http://smashboards.com/threads/tour...ings-gameshark-elo-and-much-much-more.355659/
- http://smashboards.com/threads/update-29-05-2015-pre-stage-editor-tests.403626/

 

[caneut]

the whole reason for other stages is to benefit lower tiered cast

battlefield ****s up most low tier recovery's

final D is literally the most ******** stage for 64. its the same as sectorz except smaller. all you can do is attack from the left or right, no continued combos because of platforms. all FD would do is increase match times and show us extremely gimpy play.

 

[AthensHorseParty]

I actually think the main argument for more stages would be to allow for more options and playstyles to be explored. Everybody has a lot of strong opinions about why stage X or Y should be banned or would be terrible but a lot of the time it just seems like speculation to me. I realize a lot of people on Kalliera have tried playing on certain stages like BF and MC over the years but not nearly to the same extent as Dream Land, and regardless even the DL centric meta has changed over the years both in netplay and at tournaments if I'm not mistaken. So I feel like it really remains to be seen what will happen unless people just start trying it out.

Cane and me are different people, he's just frowny that I'm having a tournament in the city he lives but it's not on console.

 

[caneut]

I actually think the main argument for more stages would be to allow for more options and playstyles to be explored. Everybody has a lot of strong opinions about why stage X or Y should be banned or would be terrible but a lot of the time it just seems like speculation to me. I realize a lot of people on Kalliera have tried playing on certain stages like BF and MC over the years but not nearly to the same extent as Dream Land, and regardless even the DL centric meta has changed over the years both in netplay and at tournaments if I'm not mistaken. So I feel like it really remains to be seen what will happen unless people just start trying it out.

Cane and me are different people, he's just frowny that I'm having a tournament in the city he lives but it's not on console.

We've already seen what happens. People camp the left side of hyrule. Characters that don't have good matchup's against characters who have good horizontal moves well greatly depreciate. Those characters are low tiers.

 

[KnitePhox]

might be cool, works on console

http://smashboards.com/threads/19xxte-ssb64-rom-hack.402248/page-3#post-19311966

 

[Combo Blaze]

A lot of movement options comes from the platforms in DL. Remove those and you gimp a number of characters approaches. Have fun approaching a Fox with DK. lmao

 

[AthensHorseParty]

Well ************ I can also just pick kirby and hover above the platforms for the entire ****ing game waiting to dair him. There's ways to be cheap and campy and gimmicky on any stage but there's also ways to deal with them. Plus why does every 64 player alive forget that DSR and bans exist? Your DK might lose a single game in a 3-0 set. So what? If you're capable of winning on a stage with platforms you still win the set 3-1. Even if they had 3 different stages they could cheese you out on the neutral start is dream land and you'd get 2 counterpicks so you'd win 3-2. In a BO3 set you could just ban FD and still win 2-0. What's the difference?

The point of competition is about proving that you're a better player than someone else and a more robust of assessment of skill comes from having to deal with different situations. Why do you think competitive melee isn't just played on Battlefield only and no other stages? Because not only does it allow for players to try to come up with different ways to beat each other but also to beat someone you have to prove you are better than them in a variety of situations.

Think about what it means to 3-0 someone in a best of 5 set. Say I beat cane's Fox with my Kirby 3-0 on Dream Land. In a Dream Land only ruleset that could easily just mean that I played campy as **** and never came down from the top platform except when I could get in a safe dair. It's cane's fault for not figuring out how to adapt but it's still not as easy to argue that I'm the better player. But in a ruleset where FD is an option a 3-0 win means that I can beat his fox on Dream Land and still win two games on FD with him laser camping.

I just don't see how there's any argument that adding more stages is going to over-centralize the meta compared to a ruleset with only one stage. The worst case scenario would just be that people play kirby and pikachu slightly more than they already do but still with the benefit of more meaningful results and more interesting sets to watch. Plus not having to hear that ****ing music over and over and over again.

 

[ganas]

not having to hear that ****ing music over and over and over again.

There's always the no music code, or of course this version of the song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbNJyhZJjDU

 

[felipe_9595]

Here we have plenty of experience in FD and BF:

Both are ****.

If you Di on BF ledges you kill yourself.
FD is humungous, and it only benefits characters like Pikachu, Kirby, Falcon and Fox (Arguably Yoshi too).

 

[Shears]

@ AthensHorseParty the whole DSR, stage striking, counterpicking argument has been made for years and beat to death. There are more good reasons than bad reasons to having only Dreamland and if you don't believe/understand them, read through the years of discussions or quietly sit angrily at major tournaments repressing any thoughts of counterpicking until you're a middle aged man taking it out on your innocent/unsuspecting wife. Additionally, application of this in a major isn't possible because it requires gameshark and majors are sponsored by Nintendo (and we all know what happened to PM by all the random noobs posting in 64).

Anyway, how is fox not broken on FD? I haven't played on the stage but playing it in my head I can't imagine anyone having a chance against him. The stage is big enough for him to always be able to run away. Laser camping makes only a few characters able to approach and those approaches are beaten by fox using an aerial or something. Because there are no platforms, any character approaching above is coming in with either a jump or double jump (probably double jump if fox lasers) and that will be so easy for fox to read and beat that he just uairs any vertical approaching character. A few characters can approach horizontally under the lasers, however since fox is so fast he can run away, or just standing laser, jump over them and attack, etc. I just don't see how fox is touched on FD. Additionally, I think FD makes pika much worse. If a pika doesn't sweet spot the ledge every time than any decently fast character will have such an easy time edgeguarding pika, and basically pika offstage means pika is dead. I honestly think on a stage like FD pika won't be viable, whether or not you ban fox.

 

[clydeaker]

W

Here we have plenty of experience in FD and BF:

Both are ****.

If you Di on BF ledges you kill yourself.
FD is humungous, and it only benefits characters like Pikachu, Kirby, Falcon and Fox (Arguably Yoshi too).

What if In addition to hacking the stages into the game you patch battlefield so DI on ledges don't kill you and so any other glitches are fixed.

 

[caneut]

Well mother****er I can also just pick kirby and hover above the platforms for the entire ****ing game waiting to dair him.

We both know that doesn't work.

 

[Combo Blaze]

The point of competition is about proving that you're a better player than someone else and a more robust of assessment of skill comes from having to deal with different situations. Why do you think competitive melee isn't just played on Battlefield only and no other stages?

Because they have a good number of stages that don't only benefit the top 2~4 or gimp the rest, or they might even benefit them. Also Final Destination isn't liked as much anymore and Pokemon Stadium has gotten some hate so it's not perfect. There's also always been a number of players who've been in favor of BF only from what I remember. Anyways at the end of the day even if you wanted to a legitimate tournament wouldn't be able to run those stages because they're GS only and it would be unfair to players who have no way to practice on it.

 

[SheerMadness]

I like FD as a competitive stage.

I hate vertical camping. FD eliminates that.

I think it would be perfectly fine as a counterpick stage. DK would suck and Fox lasers would be borderline OP but there would be balances. Like Ness and Link being more viable.

I'll take horizontal camping over vertical camping all day. Vertical is more broken IMO. Try playing as Ness vs a vertically campy Kirby on DL and tell me it's not.

 

[Purtle]

if BF's edge's weren't super messed up I'd love to try it.

 

[Sensei]

FD is huge and people take forever to die. Battlefield has weird edges, but I love the layout. If FD had smaller blast zones and Battlefield had normal ledges, they would be amazing.

 

[clydeaker]

I now understand why Battlefield and Final Destination have may some controversial issues, but what about other 1P Game stages like Metal Cavern and Yoshi's island without clouds? Could those be part of the competitive 64 scene?

 

[Shears]

I now understand why Battlefield and Final Destination have may some controversial issues, but what about other 1P Game stages like Metal Cavern and Yoshi's island without clouds? Could those be part of the competitive 64 scene?

You and no one you know must have ever played 64 on a console at a tournament in your entire life. These stages aren't feasible not because of competitive viability, janky ****, personal preference, familiarity, camping, etc.

THESE STAGES DO NOT EXIST AND WILL NOT EXIST IN COMPETITIVE 64 BECAUSE THEY REQUIRE A GAMESHARK.

Lets talk logistics, you have 180+ person Apex with 32+ setups. That means you need 32+ gamesharks. Not only does gameshark crash and cause other problems, but there just isn't enough around for every setup to have one. Oh and the performance of these devices are not stable and sometime won't be able to work at all depending on which on you have. Its like Russian roulette with your cartridge.

"Go acquire enough gamesharks"

Well after you secure Nintendo as a sponsor for the tournament why don't you try to convince them that you don't want to play on the game with the settings they decided on because its ****ty and they're stupid and you should play on the settings with the game you want because you have the gameshark to do it. While you're at it don't forget to say "and **** you Nintendo".

Asking why hack stages aren't feasible in competitive 64 is the same as asking the rest of the community why project plagiarism doesn't exist anymore.

Kids these days god damnit.

 

[clydeaker]

You and no one you know must have ever played 64 on a console at a tournament in your entire life. These stages aren't feasible not because of competitive viability, janky ****, personal preference, familiarity, camping, etc.

THESE STAGES DO NOT EXIST AND WILL NOT EXIST IN COMPETITIVE 64 BECAUSE THEY REQUIRE A GAMESHARK.

Lets talk logistics, you have 180+ person Apex with 32+ setups. That means you need 32+ gamesharks. Not only does gameshark crash and cause other problems, but there just isn't enough around for every setup to have one. Oh and the performance of these devices are not stable and sometime won't be able to work at all depending on which on you have. Its like Russian roulette with your cartridge.

"Go acquire enough gamesharks"

Well after you secure Nintendo as a sponsor for the tournament why don't you try to convince them that you don't want to play on the game with the settings they decided on because its ****ty and they're stupid and you should play on the settings with the game you want because you have the gameshark to do it. While you're at it don't forget to say "and **** you Nintendo".

Asking why hack stages aren't feasible in competitive 64 is the same as asking the rest of the community why project plagiarism doesn't exist anymore.

Kids these days god damnit.

Well, thanks for kindly* letting me know.

I see your point. When I said competitive play I didn't necessarily mean on the large scale with huge universal tournament events with hundreds of people. I meant competitive as in things like local weeklies. I thought the term "competitive" was associated with competition, but I now realize it has a different meaning among smashers. Its a way to describe a universal ruleset that's ment specifically for large scale tournaments only. I'm sorry for my misuse of the word.

I was hoping for a response about how the stages are or aren't fair for competition like how Final Destination's blast lines are too big, Battlefield has the DI edge glitch disrupting play, and how Metal Cavern might be too small.

Now I'm going to ask again:
Disregarding gameshark issues. How dose Metal cavern and Yoshi's Island no clouds work in (in game) a competition? Are they fair stages?

 

[KnitePhox]

n64 flashcarts are more stable and infinitely easier to use than gamesharks, but they are way more expensive too; an ok trade off imo. not saying that many people actually buying and using either would ever happen, neat thought though.

http://www.stoneagegamer.com/flash-carts/everdrive64-nintendo-64/
("cheapest" one would be fine for our purposes)

http://www.ebay.com/bhp/gameshark-pro-n64
(3.2 and 3.3 only, super MAYBE on 3.0/3.1)

 

[caneut]

n64 flashcarts are more stable and infinitely easier to use than gamesharks, but they are way more expensive too; an ok trade off imo. not saying that many people actually buying and using either would ever happen, neat thought though.

http://www.stoneagegamer.com/flash-carts/everdrive64-nintendo-64/
("cheapest" one would be fine for our purposes)

http://www.ebay.com/bhp/gameshark-pro-n64
(3.2 and 3.3 only, super MAYBE on 3.0/3.1)

how do you know what gs you have again?

 

[KnitePhox]

how do you know what gs you have again?

after booting it up, it will be in title screen

 

[AthensHorseParty]

Well after you secure Nintendo as a sponsor for the tournament why don't you try to convince them that you don't want to play on the game with the settings they decided on because its ****ty and they're stupid and you should play on the settings with the game you want because you have the gameshark to do it. While you're at it don't forget to say "and **** you Nintendo".

Asking why hack stages aren't feasible in competitive 64 is the same as asking the rest of the community why project plagiarism doesn't exist anymore.

Kids these days god damnit.

Yeah this is probably the real issue. Lol at Project Plagiarism, did you know I got reddit gold one time for making an info post about how copyright law works and has been applied to games and modding (If you think that not making money off of something precludes it from being illegal infringement guess what you are uninformed abut copyright law). Did you know reddit gold is actually worthless?

That and the other logistical things like gameshark/flash cart issues is what prevents these stages from becoming part of any major tourney ruleset but as clydewhatshsname said small get togethers like the one I'm having can still try it out and experiment around and people could potentially do netplay tourneys with it and stuff but as you can see Clydey boy smash 64 players are an ornery bunch who hate change and love reverse ledge DI.

Of course if there ever was a day when Nintendo actually embraced competivie events on their out of print 20 year old n64 game who knows if they'd be "offended" that we don't like any of the other stages besdies Dream Land. Maybe in a few years Apex will be forced to be random stage, items on, time mattch 4 person free for all. Enjoy the good times while they last.

 

[Shears]

Of course if there ever was a day when Nintendo actually embraced competivie events on their out of print 20 year old n64 game who knows if they'd be "offended" that we don't like any of the other stages besdies Dream Land. Maybe in a few years Apex will be forced to be random stage, items on, time mattch 4 person free for all. Enjoy the good times while they last.

Studstill 2016 Apex Champion.

 

[clydeaker]

- Project M requires every set up to use an SD card with the most recent fullw works and has been applied to games and modding (If you think that not making money off of something precludes it from being illegal infringement guess what you are uninformed abut copyright law). Did you know reddit gold is actually worthless? version downloaded.
- Smash for Wii U tournaments often require gamecube adapters and custom move sets along with the DLC characters downloaded.

I don't see how this is that different? a Gameshark isn't nearly as demanding for a small local weekly as these games.

 

[Combo Blaze]

For PM everyone needs those to play the game, so everyone has to deal with it together.
For Sm4sh...
The people who want to use the GC set up should have to deal with that issue their self (we have the same issue with some players). Custom moves are their own thing no? DLC is the only argument that's comparable, but I think DLC is dumb because of stuff like this.

I prefer to keep it DL only since requiring a GS isn't necessary and DL only works fine. (Japan has done DL since forever)

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

Can someone post a video of said ledge DI from battlefield. I have described it before but I don't remember someone posting a video

 

[Respect38]

Bumping this thread, as Jorgasms requested that discussing the legality of stages shouldn't occur in the 19XX thread.

With that in mind, just to know what people think, as we've now seen some higher level play on these stages, what does the status of Final Destination, Battlefield, and Metal Cavern look like? Coming up next week we'll get to see Yoshi's Island from the 1P Mode [which is both smaller and cloudless] which should be another interesting stage as well.

[Also, should the same rules about dark skins that have been created regarding Congo Jungle be used for Final Destination? We saw a match where Dark Samus was active, but I don't think that Shears thought it was an issue. How bad is it? Comparable in any way to Congo Jungle?]

Also, what are we to make of the Tutorial Stage? It's well known for having camera issues, with the camera highly favoring the right side of the stage, but this problem can be slightly alleviated with a Gameshark code that stretches the screen and makes more of the area left of the stage visible. Is there anything else about the stage that makes it broken? Its blast zones [which are fairly close on the right side and are closer to the ceiling than the top platform of Dreamland] make it extremely unique, and I feel like it deserves a shot like the other 1P stages that were previously considered way too jank to be worthy of playing. [which, I believe, has given way to, at the best, an argument that the current legal stages are already sufficient and much more balanced than any of those 4 stages]

Finally, since what a part of what 19XX should ultimately aim to do is to give free access for players to play all the characters in the game, what should we make of those characters? Obviously, all the polygon characters wouldn't be broken in competitive, because, except for a few of them, they're all very underpowered due to not being able to grab or do special moves, but they have an issue where they don't show a stock counter, so there is a perfectly legitimate reason to ban them until that issue is fixed.

On the other hand, both Metal Mario and Giant DK are different. Because they don't have the 1P handicap that they have as CPUs in that mode, they both work as valid characters that have unique strengths compared to their clones, but also have exploitable weaknesses as well. Because it seems like, generally, there has been the view that they aren't A-tier, but also aren't D-tier, I feel like they should be legal for the fact that they add more diversity to the meta, just like adding stages do. Considering the main reason for banning them previously was the obvious fact that they aren't accessible in the vanilla game could be going away in the future, and neither Giant DK nor Metal Mario provoke a Meta Knight-like situation, then there's no notable problem with the characters whenever they are fully implemented.

 

[ThaJakester]

To everyone that says Gameshark stages are unfeasible in tourney due to not all players having a gameshark to practice them on...all you need to do as a TO is to allow people to simply gentleman clause the gameshark stages Just don't REQUIRE them in your ruleset! That is precisely what I plan to do! At my local events, gamesharks will be available on all my setups as they're not really that expensive. Players will have the option to "gentleman clause the gameshark ruleset," meaning that players can go 1-2-1 and ban the stages they don't wish to play on accordingly. DSR will be enacted and all that good stuff!

The only thing negating this idea for me is the fact that FD is so huge with the blast zones and Battlefield apparently has messed up ledges!? I didn't know this

Another issue I found with using Gameshark is that it is insanely easy for players to accidently freeze the game due to plugging/unplugging their controllers to roughly and thus shaking up the cartridges causing the freeze My solution to this however is to get controller extension cables to leave permanently in the consoles during tourney for players to plug their controllers into! I just wish that on the market there were "1ft N64 controller extension cables..." I've only found 6ft extension cables online :U

 

[ThaJakester]

Maybe through Gameshark is is possible to add even more codes to shrink the FD blastzones and also fix Battlefield's edges? Has anyone tried this?

 

[KnitePhox]

i was thinking about something like feasible use of new stages and additions yesterday with hipstur

maybe someday in the future someone will make a 3rd party N64DD to bring addons and mods for games on original hardware



but then again for all that with easy access we already have emulators