Battle of the Overworld and Underworld : Pit/Dark Pit Match Up Discussion (Week 2 :R.O.B)

[Funkermonster]

About the ROB mu, look above in this thread and plus my experience in the mu makes me think that approaching him is very difficult.

Dark Pit is stronger in a lot of mu's (stages strengthen them both a lot mu wise)debatable but also , etc

And punishing Sonic's side b with airels isn't always an option

Already saw the above in this thread, can't say I agree with it. Look at the post I made about the MU to see why, I think it is Pit who wins the MU, actually.. ROB mains themselves are saying otherwise and that its 40:60 against their favor right here too: http://smashboards.com/threads/r-o-b-matchup-thread-olimar-kirby.382714/. No offense, but I think maybe you're just being outplayed a little.

I disagree that Dark Pit is stronger for most MUs:

• Since his sideb has horizontal knockback instead of vertical, you have to be closer to the ledge to reliably kill with it.
• His Ftilt is slightly weaker with less damage
• You can't control his arrows as well as Pits and they don't move as fast. Even though they deal more damage it makes them less versatile and not as effective as an anti-camp tool, gimping, air dodge frame trap, and is harder to hit with. Pit already has a good amount of trouble killing, and t could be argued that Dark Pit has even more trouble killing since his arrows aren't as effective for gimping and for the sideb stuff.

The general consensus is that Pit has better abilities and that Dark Pit is a slightly worse version of him, although overall they are mostly the same character, you play them almost the exact same way, they win and lose against the same characters, and the gap between them isn't as big as like say, and .

Punishing Sonic the aerials isn't always an option, but that's why you have to make good reads with your opponent and make good guesses on what he intends to do. As mentioned before, his whole approach game is over-reliant on you making mistakes for him to punish and his actual options for going in directly are incredibly bad. Sonic is almost always easy to punish when he attempts an approach and he's essentially always putting himself at risk, its just that he has so many ways of mixing it up that its hard to tell which option he's going for.

 

[BaPr]

His Ftilt is slightly weaker with less damage

They both do the same percent. In training mode, the sweet spot with both do 10% and sour spot was 7%. Everything else is correct from what I can tell.

 

[FullMoon]

This is super late but the Greninja boards are talking about the angels: http://smashboards.com/threads/mast...-pit-duo-kirby-dedede-6-22-7-6.369356/page-22

We're mainly looking for advice for playing against you guys, so any input would be deeply appreciated.

 

[Berserker.]

Shulk boards wanna talk about Pit and that other character I try to forget intentionally

http://smashboards.com/threads/pit-dark-pit-match-up-thread-pits-jp-va-is-top-tier.409629/

Input appreciated tyty

 

[Moydow]

Greetings, angels of light!
The boards are now discussing the match-up, over at the Robin match-up thread. Any input from you guys would be much appreciated!

 

[Thinktron]

I have a pocket R.O.B and Play R.O.B vs pit a fair amount And the R.O.B boards firmly decided that this is in pits favor.

pit's arrows (while nerfed) still are amazing at trading with gyro and robo beam as its faster and can be aimed for conveniently, not to mention pits reflector being slightly more efficient.
up close Pit still wins by a small amount due to having more range and better combos out of grab due to ROBS unique body design, and awkward tilts.
in the air is even, while pit has more options when comboing pit in the air, when it comes to both characters jumping and attacking rob has lesss range but more airspeed, and a better up air, pit is slower in the air, but his attacks link easier and pit has more range but has less use of his projectiles.
Finally recovery..... Pits is faster, safer and since upperdash arm is powerful i could make an argument saying it is stronger.

Of course, R.O.B kills earlier and is great at punishing pit if he is to make an error. But pit is faster, and wins in a lot more scenarios.
At a for glory stand point id say this is even, but competitively i sadly say that pit takes the crown.

 

[BaPr]

I have a pocket R.O.B and Play R.O.B vs pit a fair amount And the R.O.B boards firmly decided that this is in pits favor.

pit's arrows (while nerfed) still are amazing at trading with gyro and robo beam as its faster and can be aimed for conveniently, not to mention pits reflector being slightly more efficient.
up close Pit still wins by a small amount due to having more range and better combos out of grab due to ROBS unique body design, and awkward tilts.
in the air is even, while pit has more options when comboing pit in the air, when it comes to both characters jumping and attacking rob has lesss range but more airspeed, and a better up air, pit is slower in the air, but his attacks link easier and pit has more range but has less use of his projectiles.
Finally recovery..... Pits is faster, safer and since upperdash arm is powerful i could make an argument saying it is stronger.

Of course, R.O.B kills earlier and is great at punishing pit if he is to make an error. But pit is faster, and wins in a lot more scenarios.
At a for glory stand point id say this is even, but competitively i sadly say that pit takes the crown.

How much in Pit's favor did they say it was? Or a link to the discussion would be nice

 

[Funkermonster]

How much in Pit's favor did they say it was? Or a link to the discussion would be nice

60:40, totally Pit's favor. 55:45 for Pitto.

The discussion: http://smashboards.com/threads/r-o-b-matchup-analysis-25-pit-dark-pit.405656/
Their MU chart: http://smashboards.com/threads/r-o-b-matchup-thread-olimar-kirby.382714/

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

To all Pits out there, the Rosalina sub-forum has a match-up discussion thread all set up to analyze Rosalina's match-up against Pit. Got anything to share for the Rosalina vs. Pit match-up? Then head to the following thread link...

http://smashboards.com/threads/410742/

In terms of the rules, be sure to go to the directory thread.

http://smashboards.com/threads/404194/

Also, for those who aren't bothering to go to Dark Pit's sub-forum, Dark Pit has his own match-up discussion thread, which is in the following link...

http://smashboards.com/threads/410744/

 

[Dabuz]

What's the MU spread for pit look like?

 

[Red Pittoo ~ Rekt]

What's the MU spread for pit look like?

The Rosaluma boards has some discussions on it and their Dark Pit vs. Rosaluma thread currently has 3 Pit mains saying that it's even between them but 55:45 Rosalinas favor against Pit, to be honest I agree with that. The post above yours has the links to the Rosalina MU discussions against the Angels. But, again in my opinion, Dark Pit has it even and Pit has a disadvantage by 55:45

 

[Dabuz]

I asked for the MU spread, not the Rosalina MU.

 

[Red Pittoo ~ Rekt]

I asked for the MU spread, not the Rosalina MU.

OH, I'm sorry. We haven't gotten much progress, everyone stops talking so we have only got through Sonic, Luigi, and R.O.B but the only won we actually agreed on was R.O.B (60:40 Pit, 55:45 Pittoo) hope I answered your question this time The Buzz

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

Already saw the above in this thread, can't say I agree with it. Look at the post I made about the MU to see why, I think it is Pit who wins the MU, actually.. ROB mains themselves are saying otherwise and that its 40:60 against their favor right here too: http://smashboards.com/threads/r-o-b-matchup-thread-olimar-kirby.382714/. No offense, but I think maybe you're just being outplayed a little.

I disagree that Dark Pit is stronger for most MUs:

• Since his sideb has horizontal knockback instead of vertical, you have to be closer to the ledge to reliably kill with it.
• His Ftilt is slightly weaker with less damage
• You can't control his arrows as well as Pits and they don't move as fast. Even though they deal more damage it makes them less versatile and not as effective as an anti-camp tool, gimping, air dodge frame trap, and is harder to hit with. Pit already has a good amount of trouble killing, and t could be argued that Dark Pit has even more trouble killing since his arrows aren't as effective for gimping and for the sideb stuff.

The general consensus is that Pit has better abilities and that Dark Pit is a slightly worse version of him, although overall they are mostly the same character, you play them almost the exact same way, they win and lose against the same characters, and the gap between them isn't as big as like say, and .

Punishing Sonic the aerials isn't always an option, but that's why you have to make good reads with your opponent and make good guesses on what he intends to do. As mentioned before, his whole approach game is over-reliant on you making mistakes for him to punish and his actual options for going in directly are incredibly bad. Sonic is almost always easy to punish when he attempts an approach and he's essentially always putting himself at risk, its just that he has so many ways of mixing it up that its hard to tell which option he's going for.

Dark pit does have some matchups that are more in his favor than pits, also nairo prefers dark pit over pit so make of that what you will.

 

[Red Pittoo ~ Rekt]

May we please get back to discussing. This thread is very quiet

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

Ok so what do we discuss now?

 

[Heracr055]

Since one of the most recent posts have been about Rosalina, let's discuss her. I don't have much experience with Pit vs Rosalina, so I'll address the Dark Pit matchup with her (since I imagine Electroshock Arm greatly improves dealing with her).

Getting rid of Luma is crucial in making the MU more manageable. Closing the gap isn't too hard; just know most Rosalinas will try to grab, down smash, jab or launch Luma. What I do is use Electroshock Arm to knock Luma off.

Don't underestimate Rosalina when they're separated. Her down smash, dash, jab and all her aerials are potent without Luma. Especially the up air and forward air; respect those moves. Anyways, grabs are more effective while Luma's away, so try to set up down throw combos at lower percents, and forward throw for the kill. Back air's fairly good here too, due to Rosalina's height and relatively safe distance on the hit box. Since Rosalina's recovery has no hit box, that is another opportunity to edge guard against her.

Just keep the pressure on her and dispose Luma as soon as possible, and the matchup becomes much more manageable. Overall I'd call this even.

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

Ya I feel people everywhere are starting to figure out how to deal with her. The Rosalina players decided that the dark pit matchup was even (due to electro shock kicking Lumas ***) and the pit matchup to be slightly in Rosalinas favor.

DP has a better off stage (only slightly due to speed) and has more range with his swords in the neutral. If the Rosalina isn't prepared to fight without Luma then DP wins. But a good Rosalina won't be helpless without luma.

Since one of the most recent posts have been about Rosalina, let's discuss her. I don't have much experience with Pit vs Rosalina, so I'll address the Dark Pit matchup with her (since I imagine Electroshock Arm greatly improves dealing with her).

Getting rid of Luma is crucial in making the MU more manageable. Closing the gap isn't too hard; just know most Rosalinas will try to grab, down smash, jab or launch Luma. What I do is use Electroshock Arm to knock Luma off.

Don't underestimate Rosalina when they're separated. Her down smash, dash, jab and all her aerials are potent without Luma. Especially the up air and forward air; respect those moves. Anyways, grabs are more effective while Luma's away, so try to set up down throw combos at lower percents, and forward throw for the kill. Back air's fairly good here too, due to Rosalina's height and relatively safe distance on the hit box. Since Rosalina's recovery has no hit box, that is another opportunity to edge guard against her.

Just keep the pressure on her and dispose Luma as soon as possible, and the matchup becomes much more manageable. Overall I'd call this even.

I agree with this analysis and can't really think of much to add. This MU will probably be decided by the neutral because both can edgeguard well and both have good recovery.

Anyone else have anything to add?

 

[Red Pittoo ~ Rekt]

I agreed with it being even. I was on Anthers Ladder and a Rosa dropped luma to the ledge and started jabbing. I couldn't make it back because of our linear recovery. Be aware of this. A lot of our moves kill luma easily but as stated, neutral really decides it. I say even

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

Are we the only 3 dark pit players here?... I mean we can keep takin about rosa if u want but idk what to say about this one. Know your fundamentals? I guess...

 

[Red Pittoo ~ Rekt]

Yea, this is why our forums need to merge... So quiet.

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

Ok so my friend plays Lucas and has ever since brawl, he is the defensive type and never approaches. No matter how many new tricks I learn we are always evenly matched. I looked over at the Lucas MU discussion and they seem to think that we have the advantage in this MU.I need some tips to beat him.

In so scared of his PK Fire even though I can reflect it for major knock back. It becomes a mixup game of "is he going to throw it?" He baits out my orbitars and punishes me when I guess wrong.

My other option is to approach from the air. This has mixed results as I'm not sure which attacks are safest to hit him with.

Once I do get in with a confirmed hit I find that he is so damn floaty and has godlike DI. He is such a difficult character to combo that the match goes by on a hit by hit based on reads I make. Nothing I do strings together.

And I know we are supposed to be top of the cast at edgeguarding but Lucas seems to be able to dance around everything I throw. And if I hit him far his PK Thunder reaches so far that usually I can't get to him before the cannon activates.

I feel like I'm not understanding the MU. Any help?

 

[Fujiwara]

Just remember one thing: PK Fire can be blocked or mirrored. The best way to deal with Ness or Lucas is to play defensive as well. Spacing and the use of arrows are the key of success but don't hesitate to grab him when he jumps right into you or just falls back into his safety zone after a failed fAir attempt.

Never try to force you into a melee-fight. Pit is faster than Ness and Lucas and you should build your playstyle around it. Dash attack, arrow-mindgames, feints and the mentioned spacing. It's your job to look for his after-delays and keep him busy with the arrows. Calculate how long you need to run to him when he recovers after you shot a arrow. Get him, punish him, but like I said, don't force you into a melee with him. Ness and Lucas are superior characters and counter your more easily.

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

Just remember one thing: PK Fire can be blocked or mirrored. The best way to deal with Ness or Lucas is to play defensive as well. Spacing and the use of arrows are the key of success but don't hesitate to grab him when he jumps right into you or just falls back into his safety zone after a failed fAir attempt.

Never try to force you into a melee-fight. Pit is faster than Ness and Lucas and you should build your playstyle around it. Dash attack, arrow-mindgames, feints and the mentioned spacing. It's your job to look for his after-delays and keep him busy with the arrows. Calculate how long you need to run to him when he recovers after you shot a arrow. Get him, punish him, but like I said, don't force you into a melee with him. Ness and Lucas are superior characters and counter your more easily.

He never approaches me and he will just sit by the edge waiting to absorb my arrows. If I do manage to hit him with 2 arrows that's great but the moment he absorbs a 3rd he heals from the last two. I feel arrows are unsafe against Lucas due to PSI magnet.

I need approach options. He out camps me and if I try to use arrows he ends up just healing more than taking damage

 

[Fujiwara]

stay close to him in your safety spacing zone but focus on the many different approaches you could do. He absorbs your arrows? You're close to him for a dash attack. He blocks the arrow and approachs you? Run into him and roll immediately back. It's all about the mindgames.

Pits playstyle is all about trolling, baiting and defensive play. Pay attention that he could use everytime a PK-fire. You have do remind yourself all the time that he can do that. It comes faster out then your arrows. The best option will be for you when he absorbs your arrow and you grab him right after these. Repeat it as many times as you need to, he'll need to change sooner or later. Try to remember which attacks and after delays let him open. Try fakeouts (full dSmash with a fSpecial right after that), believe me, the after delay is really minimal and even when he fires a PK fire there's still a chance you'll reflect and still hit him.

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

stay close to him in your safety spacing zone but focus on the many different approaches you could do. He absorbs your arrows? You're close to him for a dash attack. He blocks the arrow and approachs you? Run into him and roll immediately back. It's all about the mindgames.

Pits playstyle is all about trolling, baiting and defensive play. Pay attention that he could use everytime a PK-fire. You have do remind yourself all the time that he can do that. It comes faster out then your arrows. The best option will be for you when he absorbs your arrow and you grab him right after these. Repeat it as many times as you need to, he'll need to change sooner or later. Try to remember which attacks and after delays let him open. Try fakeouts (full dSmash with a fSpecial right after that), believe me, the after delay is really minimal and even when he fires a PK fire there's still a chance you'll reflect and still hit him.

I'll give this a shot. Iv always felt like pit was more about punishing mistakes than causing them. He probably can't absorb my arrows that close, and The new patch actually sped up our arrows by 3 frames I think. Also increased our damage by 1%.

Any advice for off stage and securing the kill?... Guess I could switch to guiding arrows and gimp his PK Thunder, but then my arrows become useless in the neutral.

EDIT: thank you for your input. I hope I'm not derailing the thread but it was kinda dead...

 

[Red Pittoo ~ Rekt]

Glad there is chatter but I feel we all need to talk MU's going down the tier list... we have discussed 3 MU's but only ruled 1 or 2...

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

Ok so who next? Give us a character to discuss. In general I don't think either pits have any bad MUs because their such balanced characters.

 

[SilverWolfLaguz]

What about ? I personally don't have too much trouble with him (maybe I'm just so used to fighting him online?), but I can see why this could be a tricky MU. That speed and power, the uair which can combo into itself, oh and that ridiculous dash grab range.

I have a video of a match against , but because my Wii U won't read my SD card for whatever reason, I'll have to send it to one of you guys to upload it.

 

[Fujiwara]

Ok so who next? Give us a character to discuss. In general I don't think either pits have any bad MUs because their such balanced characters.

Unfortunately they are not against most top-tiers. Mostly because they simply have better approaches and no real pain in the ass-afterdelay like we do or simply because of the priorities/hitboxes.

What about ? I personally don't have too much trouble with him (maybe I'm just so used to fighting him online?), but I can see why this could be a tricky MU. That speed and power, the uair which can combo into itself, oh and that ridiculous dash grab range.

I have a video of a match against , but because my Wii U won't read my SD card for whatever reason, I'll have to send it to one of you guys to upload it.

I think CF is manageable but you're not allowed to use attacks with afterdelays because he can easily grab you, like Roy or Sonic.

 

[Red Pittoo ~ Rekt]

I think we should go down the recent tier list so we're able to cover the most important characters and so it will be organized. I don't know how everyone feels about this because there is only 3 of us really talking and we can't cover the MU's well. I hate how everyone left this thread dessert ;~;

 

[Red Pittoo ~ Rekt]

Oh my gosh, there is another match up thread that was posted. Forget this one and go there
EDIT: It's on the Pit boards by the way

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

Oh my gosh, there is another match up thread that was posted. Forget this one and go there
EDIT: It's on the Pit boards by the way

Then you should make a link

 

[Red Pittoo ~ Rekt]

http://smashboards.com/threads/the-...discussion-thread.387520/page-2#post-19824543