Barrel rolls galore!

[Sauron_The_Great]

Sauron_The_Great submitted a new guide:

Barrel rolls galore! - An average guide to Fox

How to describe fox?? Hes a glass cannon. A risky character that literally everyone plays. Fox can use amazingly fast attacks to dizzy his opponent and rack up damage, but is a lightweight, with a quick falling speed and a play style that leaves much to speed and skill. To start off, here's a pros and cons list:
Pros:
Fast- he can outrun all characters
quick, rapid projectile
counter that can be used to combo and reflect projectiles
two recoveries
fox illusion can be used to knock opponent into...

Read more about this guide...

 

[Gannonspetmoblin]

CunningKitsune has to step their game up

 

[C-SAF]

CunningKitsune has to step their game up

@ Sauron_The_Great actually read some of CunningKitsune's guide. Its amazing and one of the best guides to a character I have ever seen. If you don't think you can do half as well as he can, you should stop making guides. I know you said this is a guide for "average" fox, but this is far below average. This is the description of a noob fox and has several factual errors (Captain Falcon is actually the fastest character).

 

[Sauron_The_Great]

This guide is for beginners. Thats what a guide is for. Its not for Mango.

 

[C-SAF]

This guide is for beginners. Thats what a guide is for. Its not for Mango.

Its not for beginners either though, its still got a lot of misinformation and bad habits. If a beginner reads a guide, its because they want to get better quickly, not learn how to be a beginner. If I'd never played melee, but tried it for the first time one day, this is how I would play fox. (btw, even CunningKitsune's guide is not for Mango)

 

[MudkipUniverse]

Here's my review:

As @ C-SAF had said, this is the description of a noob fox.

"d-throw can combo into smashes, reflectors, and dashes"
Dthrow can be teched. Also I don't mind if you call it a reflector, but please call it a shine.

"His throws lead to combos, especially his down throw"
His Uthrow is his best throw, It has chaingrabs, and often leads to Bair/Uair (i think)

"Cons: fox illusion can send you off the stage if you aren't careful"
That's not a con if you simply avoid suiciding

"fox illusion can be used to knock opponent into air repeated times"
you have got to be the most reckless fox i have ever heard of. Fox Illusion spam? I think you've been playing against CPU'S, who can't adapt to your habits.

"In the air, fox needs to maintain total control, dominating with his f-airs and keeping his opponents grounded if possible."
pro tip; jump above fox
pro tip; use a move to beat out the Fair

"u-throw can combo into a u-air string"
are you playing against humans

"If forced into the air, chained u-airs rack up massive damage and easily get ko's"
your guide sucks

0/10

 

[Pr0fessor Flash]

-72/10 @ Sauron_The_Great
CunningKitsune=10/10

 

[Boomhound]

Props for anyone writing a guide, it's difficult as new players are always looking for guaranteed combos and set ups but for the most part Melee doesn't work like that.
That's why better received guides don't really commit to those ideas and are more theory-craft oriented.

New players hate hearing 'practice your shhfls and shine follow-ups' as it means they'll have to invest a huge amount of time in the game before they can even move properly- but that's just the way it is, game is hard.

 

[C-SAF]

Props for anyone writing a guide, it's difficult as new players are always looking for guaranteed combos and set ups but for the most part Melee doesn't work like that.
That's why better received guides don't really commit to those ideas and are more theory-craft oriented.

The best guides do tell you about guaranteed combos and set ups, Melee fox has many. This guide just didn't describe any.

 

[Sauron_The_Great]

The best guides do tell you about guaranteed combos and set ups, Melee fox has many. This guide just didn't describe any.

And new players need to learn how to play before they get to big combos. Ya think Mango was just a prodigy from the start?

 

[MudkipUniverse]

And new players need to learn how to play before they get to big combos. Ya think Mango was just a prodigy from the start?

This isn't "teaching you the basics" though. It's teaching you how to fight CPU's

 

[C-SAF]

And new players need to learn how to play before they get to big combos. Ya think Mango was just a prodigy from the start?

There are many very simple guaranteed and almost guaranteed combos and follow ups for fox. I'll reinterate, you don't need a guide to play fox the way its set out in your guide, this is just how noobs play fox. This is a reoccurring theme in all your guides.

 

[Gannonspetmoblin]

Keep fighting the good fight @ C-SAF (but not too hard, I wanna read more of these threads in the future!)

 

[C-SAF]

Keep fighting the good fight @ C-SAF (but not too hard, I wanna read more of these threads in the future!)

I hold u solely responsible for this thread. Ur a s sick man Gannonspetmoblin lol

 

[Sauron_The_Great]

There are many very simple guaranteed and almost guaranteed combos and follow ups for fox. I'll reinterate, you don't need a guide to play fox the way its set out in your guide, this is just how noobs play fox. This is a reoccurring theme in all your guides.

Bub, guides aren't for pros. guides are for players who just picked up the game and/or found out about competitive smash.

 

[C-SAF]

Bub, guides aren't for pros. guides are for players who just picked up the game and/or found out about competitive smash.

So basically u. Ur the people ur own guide is targeted at.

Wrong information isn't for anyone, why on earth would new players find misinformation useful.

 

[Sauron_The_Great]

Buddy, do you really want to do this? You need a lesson in respect. NOW

 

[Sauron_The_Great]

Keep fighting the good fight @ C-SAF (but not too hard, I wanna read more of these threads in the future!)

f**k you, you f**king troll you.

 

[C-SAF]

Buddy, do you really want to do this? You need a lesson in respect. NOW

f**k you, you f**king troll you.

Its funny looking at these side by side.

If u took any of the advice given to u, you wouldn't be trolled. Ur bringing it on urself.

 

[dude it's raining]

Here's my review:

As @ C-SAF had said, this is the description of a noob fox.

"d-throw can combo into smashes, reflectors, and dashes"
Dthrow can be teched. Also I don't mind if you call it a reflector, but please call it a shine.

"His throws lead to combos, especially his down throw"
His Uthrow is his best throw, It has chaingrabs, and often leads to Bair/Uair (i think)

"Cons: fox illusion can send you off the stage if you aren't careful"
That's not a con if you simply avoid suiciding

"fox illusion can be used to knock opponent into air repeated times"
you have got to be the most reckless fox i have ever heard of. Fox Illusion spam? I think you've been playing against CPU'S, who can't adapt to your habits.

"In the air, fox needs to maintain total control, dominating with his f-airs and keeping his opponents grounded if possible."
pro tip; jump above fox
pro tip; use a move to beat out the Fair

"u-throw can combo into a u-air string"
are you playing against humans

"If forced into the air, chained u-airs rack up massive damage and easily get ko's"
your guide sucks

0/10

Here is my review of your review:

A very good guide for beginners would say: beginners probably can't tech dthrow, so until your opponents learn the timing, enjoy free damage. Yes, it doesn't "combo", but it can work.
By the way, that is an important aspect of smash - picking up your opponents' habits, and exploiting them.

Everyone SD's with spacie sideB's. Don't tell beginners they need perfect tech skill.

If your opponent let's you combo them with sideB, why should you not? As long as you can recognize when an opponent picks up on your unsafe approaches.

Yes, Fox's Fair sucks. One other thing the guide should change is that "keeping his opponents grounded if possible" should be keeping his opponents in the air if possible. Juggling your opponent is a poweful situation, but even if you're not hitting your opponent, you always have positional advantage when you are below your opponent.

Uthrow -> Uair is one of the most basic and powerful combos in the game. The guide seems spot on at that.

Same with Uair juggling. It's spot on - it racks up damage and easily KO's.


If I didn't mention a point, your criticism was accurate.

 

[C-SAF]

Here is my review of your review:

A very good guide for beginners would say: beginners probably can't tech dthrow, so until your opponents learn the timing, enjoy free damage. Yes, it doesn't "combo", but it can work.
By the way, that is an important aspect of smash - picking up your opponents' habits, and exploiting them.

Everyone SD's with spacie sideB's. Don't tell beginners they need perfect tech skill.

If your opponent let's you combo them with sideB, why should you not? As long as you can recognize when an opponent picks up on your unsafe approaches.

Yes, Fox's Fair sucks. One other thing the guide should change is that "keeping his opponents grounded if possible" should be keeping his opponents in the air if possible. Juggling your opponent is a poweful situation, but even if you're not hitting your opponent, you always have positional advantage when you are below your opponent.

Uthrow -> Uair is one of the most basic and powerful combos in the game. The guide seems spot on at that.

Same with Uair juggling. It's spot on - it racks up damage and easily KO's.


If I didn't mention a point, your criticism was accurate.

This guide doesn't even optimize the lower level stuff. There are many easy gimmicks that will help u win games when u and ur friends first pick it up. If u actually want to get good at the game though, don't rely on these gimmicks.

Dthrow to shine might work but its still dumb because you can do more damage off any aerial. Also, if ur spamming sideB and its working, then ur playing people who don't even know what a shield is yet. If that's the case, then the first thing in this guide should be explaining what a shield is and how to use it.

"Everyone SD's with spacie sideB's. Don't tell beginners they need perfect tech skill."

Nothing in this guide requires any techskill. Its not asking the reader to waveshine or short hop laser so the only reason they would sideB off stage is if they just did a sideB off the stage. Asking them not to intentionally kill themselves seem like relatively little.

Good advice for beginners of the level ur describing would be to learn the fundementals of the game. Practice dashdancing, L-canceling, and shorthopping. Doing these things, then learning to "read ur opponent".

 

[dude it's raining]

This guide doesn't even optimize the lower level stuff. There are many easy gimmicks that will help u win games when u and ur friends first pick it up. If u actually want to get good at the game though, don't rely on these gimmicks.

Dthrow to shine might work but its still dumb because you can do more damage off any aerial. Also, if ur spamming sideB and its working, then ur playing people who don't even know what a shield is yet. If that's the case, then the first thing in this guide should be explaining what a shield is and how to use it.

"Everyone SD's with spacie sideB's. Don't tell beginners they need perfect tech skill."

Nothing in this guide requires any techskill. Its not asking the reader to waveshine or short hop laser so the only reason they would sideB off stage is if they just did a sideB off the stage. Asking them not to intentionally kill themselves seem like relatively little.

Good advice for beginners of the level ur describing would be to learn the fundementals of the game. Practice dashdancing, L-canceling, and shorthopping. Doing these things, then learning to "read ur opponent".

Gosh, you're hard to work with. If you were commenting on my guide, I would've abandoned it too.
Everything you've said is just a different way of saying what I'm saying. I've pm'd the dude who made these guides, and hope to work with him to improve them. You just seem to want to argue, bruh.

 

[dude it's raining]

I remember back in 6th grade when I first played smash. My friend had melee, and I remember we'd gang up on the cpu bowsers, we unlocked M2, etc. I remember checking out the guides on gamefaqs, and having my mind blown when I found out that Puff's down-B actually did something. I didn't become a competitive smasher until my freshman roommate in college reintroduced me to the game. But I remember as a kid thinking about what it would take to be a pro; I was intimidated by the depth of the game and what it would take to become good. My most immediate challenge was shielding - I was afraid of holding it to long, and having to learn when to use it and not use it. So I decided to never use it - to me, smash was just a game I played at my friend's house.

I wasn't a very competitive kid, but the kinds of guides Sauron_The_Great makes are the kinds of guides I think would appeal to kids that are like I was, only more competitive. Looking through the comments on these guides, it at first annoyed me how Sauron_The_Great kept being all "I'm not writing a guide for mango", but know I see that you probably drove him to being that dramatic, and that he has a point. He's not writing a guide for mango or any competitive smasher. And he's not writing a guide for someone who wants to beat a competitive smasher. He's writing a guide for that kid Timmy down the street who wants to beat that kid Billy next door.

There are only 2 things wrong with this situation: 1) Sauron_The_Great sucks at writing guides 2) He lacks a support group.

TBH, y'all have been disgustingly nasty to this 14-year-old. To be fair, he hasn't done a good job of avoiding provocation.

But this is a smash community, dammit.

I'm sure you all read the article about M2K leaving his sponsor. That dude has such a strong heart. When his friend has been ripping him off for years, M2K is focused on trying to avoid hurting the guy personally.

That is what it means to be a community. If you all are trying to learn in-game stuff from M2K, you should also learn some out-of-game stuff from him. That is why I want to meet M2K someday - not just to play against him, but to meet that dude who walks around in a blanket and has a heart stronger than 9000 men.

 

[C-SAF]

Gosh, you're hard to work with. If you were commenting on my guide, I would've abandoned it too.
Everything you've said is just a different way of saying what I'm saying. I've pm'd the dude who made these guides, and hope to work with him to improve them. You just seem to want to argue, bruh.

Well if ur willing to do that go for it. Rather than writing guides though, he would be far better off reading some. We pointed out what was wrong with it, and he got defensive over a paragraph that had less info than the SmashWiki. If u think the smash community is the only place in the world where you'll get criticism for having no clue what ur talking about and writing a guide then check out any other competive community.

EDIT: to be fair too, these guides didn't state they were for extreme noobs when they started. First they were just guides, then "average guides", now ur saying they are guides for people on their first day of playing.

 

[Sauron_The_Great]

@ C-SAF , Get of your high ****ing horse. I note that you joined in August. I joined in September. How much more experience you you think you have? Not a whole ****ing lot.

 

[dude it's raining]

Yo, Sauron_The_Great, you gotta quit digging yourself in.

 

[Gannonspetmoblin]

I apologize for nothing. Sauron's written 5 guides now, and none of them have had any sort of valuable kernel of truth to work off of. His "tips" are all outdated and naive, and every time he makes a new guide the denizens of that character's board are quick to point them out. I don't think they could be helpful to anyone, no matter what their level of noobiness, because the insights are incredibly lacking and there's more misdirection than anything else. I myself wrote a very lengthy post on his first guide trying to help him and telling him to focus on studying the game rather than trying to disseminate information that he doesn't have. He's now moved on to characters he doesn't play/doesn't understand/already have amazing guides written for them. No matter how much people may modify this guide, it won't have even one thousandth of the use that CunningKitsune's mammoth guide is. Sauron is clearly just stubborn and believes far too much in his own abilities. Admittedly, he's 14, but some of the best players in my region are in that 14-16 age range, and are more knowledgeable, and more ready to heed advice than give it out.

Anyways, the claim we've been "disgustingly nasty" is pretty hilarious. We've done more to try to help him out than you have, but we've reached a point where we realize it's folly and the tragic turns into the comedic. Tons of people have been dumb on the internet as a kid and been chewed out for it, myself absolutely included. I can look back on my past self, have a laugh and shake my head. Hopefully Sauron will grow up to be someone who can see where they have failed in the past and move past it, and not continually stick his head in the sand when people unanimously give him decent advice.

I'm gonna stop posting in these from now on though because at this point it feels like I'm being reverse-trolled...

 

[MudkipUniverse]

I don't see how this guide helps out people of ANY competitive skill

@ Gannonspetmoblin I'm 13 and I don't suck (we have Silentwolf and bladewise)

 

[Gannonspetmoblin]

@ Gannonspetmoblin I'm 13 and I don't suck (we have Silentwolf and bladewise)

I didn't mean to say that you suck, I think I took steps to imply the opposite. Having top players in your region doesn't necessarily make you good (PPMD being a good example of a skilled player in a region lacking much talent), however I do believe you when you say you don't suck. Either way, you articulate yourself a million times better than I did when I joined these boards when I was 15, never would have guessed you were so young, lol.

 

[C-SAF]

@ C-SAF , Get of your high ****ing horse. I note that you joined in August. I joined in September. How much more experience you you think you have? Not a whole ****ing lot.

From reading ur guides it would seem like a lot. Ive played the game much longer than Ive had an account btw. GameCube was first gaming system (and the best in my opinion lol), and melee my favourite game forever. Anyway I don't care about this anymore, just know ur attitude towards criticism has got to change if u want to be welcomed the way u want to be. Knowing that u know nothing is the first step to that. Don't act like u can write a guide to like 5 characters in this game when there are more resources now to learn this game then ever. New players should know when they read these that this is bad advice, and that they should check out some of the other great resources on this site; many of which are VERY beginner friendly. Other people have put a lot of work into their information, with endless hours of fact checking and editing. I don't see that here, and I feel no shame in telling u the way it is.

Peace

(Gets back on horse, and rides away)

 

[dude it's raining]

I hope everyone's seen this.

Sauron_The_Great making these guides started a bad atmosphere that is being perpetuated by everyone in this thread (me included). I myself want to apologize for using words like disgusting and nasty. I'm not always good with words. I'm aware of the effort many people have made to get these guides into shape (I think I remember noticing this debate back before I had ever posted anything on smashboards). A lot of you seem to be of the competitive-smash-elitist mindset, and I think this debate shouldn't be about competitive vs casual smash, but about guide quality (although, the guides themselves started out with that mixup).


@ Sauron_The_Great Please decide whether to commit time to making these guides at least not filled with information, or just delete them. If you hope to someday comeback to them, just copy/paste what you've got onto your computer.

 

[dude it's raining]

...I think I took steps to imply the opposite....

That seems to be the trend in this thread. Every time somebody posts something, everyone else wonders what they really meant by it.

 

[7upjawa]

"Beginners don't even know what wavedashing is" let me please ask you, what the first competitive thing you learned was?

 

[Sauron_The_Great]

dashdancing and grab combos

 

[7upjawa]

You had to learn dashdancing?
Either way, its tough to make a guide, just edit it some based on all the criticism instead of defending mistakes.

 

[Sauron_The_Great]

You had to learn dashdancing?
Either way, its tough to make a guide, just edit it some based on all the criticism instead of defending mistakes.

and your problem with dashdancing is? Dude, ever heard of mindgames?

 

[The Soap]

and your problem with dashdancing is? Dude, ever heard of mindgames?

If a beginner read your guide they wouldn't have.

 

[Sauron_The_Great]

If a beginner read your guide they wouldn't have.

get out. now.

 

[MudkipUniverse]

Sauron, a beginner guide wouldn't depict stuff that only begginers would do, it would show the basics of playing as a competitive fox. Which it doesn't.

 

[Sauron_The_Great]

Sauron, a beginner guide wouldn't depict stuff that only begginers would do, it would show the basics of playing as a competitive fox. Which it doesn't.

dude one does not simply go from beginner to pro in 1.5 seconds.