Balancing Yoshi Discussion for the Balance Patch Project

[Mmac]

So, the SBR is developing a "Balance" Patch by adjusting values of separate characters such as Frames, Priority, Damage, and Knockback values. What it's not going to do is Make it "Melee 2.0", so no universal stuff, Hitstun increase, Shield Stun, Wavedashing, or anything like that.

I want to get ahead and start a discussion on how you should feel Yoshi should be balanced. I started with posting what I feel needs to be changed. You can add in to the list, or discuss something thats already on there.

But please be Realistic about it! We are not going to change Yoshi into "Snoshi Knight", Nothing like that. So lets get started!

Buffs:
- Increase Fsmash Damage 16% to 18%
- Increase Fsmash Knockback by 10%
--- The damage and knockback is just terrible for it's speed. A Slight increase can help
- Increase Dsmash Knockback by 20%-30%
--- Dsmash is almost useless when it was nerf. There's not really much of a point to use it when it's just basically a more punishable jab that could hit behind. His Dsmash should be return to it's former self with a reasonable 140%-150% from the center
- Remove Sourspot for Fair
- Increase Priority for Fair
--- Fair is alright, but Sourspot was completely unnecessary! He could use a priority boost too as it's terrible!
- Reduce "Breaking out of Shield" Lag
--- The main reason why his shield sucks is because he has to take time to break out! WTF! If you can't do this, at least consider the below.
- Reduce startup time of Shield Grab
--- It's terrible, and as being his ONLY option out of shield, I would really like it if the startup was reduced. That way he can actually punish from it, while maintaining a balanced risk from the afterlag still present.
- Increase Knockback Growth for Uthrow
--- As it stands now, it's basically a more useless version of Dthrow, because it has the same growth. Perhaps if it can kill at oh say 190% instead of 550%, then it can see more use.
- Increase Dthrow Damage 4% to 7%
--- For throwing someone violently to the ground, it sure does pathetic damage >_>
- Increase Double Jump Armour
--- It was nerfed again >_<. The least you could do is increase it a bit. Although he doesn't really need it anymore.....
- Increase "Breakout" Resistance for Egg Lay
--- Egg Lay is useless is because they break out too fast! If you can make it so that it takes longer to break out, that would be excellent!
- Remove Helpless state from EggRoll
--- PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD DO! I, along with others, am tired of killing myself because we do it accidently trying to Egg Toss forward.
- Increase Priority for Egg Roll
--- More or less, it completely sucks! While not as bad as Melee, it still gets beaten by tons of moves for it to be useful.


Nerfs:
...... Does Yoshi need Nerfs?


Discuss, NAO!

 

[Fingerp@ss]

I think having a patch to make the game more balanced is hoping for a little too much but wutever...

Of anything you've discussed I'd have to agree with the up and down throw segment the most. Definitely increase damage% for d-throw and increase knock back growth for the u-throw. D-throw looks so brutal and does crap damage. Maybe its like that cause Yoshi's grab is already good. I think that increasing the u-throw range is also a good idea and possibility of killing certain characters at high percentages (190%ish) would do, if its a fresh u-throw.

Also, as stated, f-air should receive more priority. That move is like a sledgehammer but is considered almost unusable in most cases. I would like it to have invincibility frames but thats just way too much already. I believe that Yoshi's brain is in his nose which is why the f-air doesnt go well. jk

The breakout resistance should be as is. I've never had a problem with a player breaking out too soon. Also I guess it depends on how you use the egg lay. My main purpose for it is a early kill after around 80% damage.

DJ armour is fine as is. Its one of the things that makes Yoshi good and should remain the same for now.

Priority for egg roll.....eh idk its kinda weird. It can stop certain charged smashes and some fully charged projectile moves and loses against some real weak attacks (cant really think of an example right now).

Reducing the "breaking out of shield lag" I would have to go with yes. Its probably one of Yoshi's biggest down sides. Even if the decrease in lag time only helps the grab out of shield it would greatly help Yoshi, maybe too much cause of the chain grabs on certain characters. But wutever I'll take it, its not like Yoshi's chaingrab is devastating.

Eggroll deaths.....nothing you can do about it. Learn not to kill yourself that way.

Dstycube will have a better list with better reasons than mine

 

[DstyCube]

If I were to put hacks onto my wii to make brawl more balanced id just go with melee 2.0 lol

BUFFS:
Reduce egg toss animation
Increase d-smash knock back to something similar to melee's (it was good back then)
Reduce start up lag on egg lay by a couple frames.
Reduce out of shield animation.
Needs better kill moves in general, so increase knockback on smashes.

NERFS:
Reduce utilt knockback, make it similar to that of Fox's. (lolol jk thats not a nerf but really, I couldn't think of any nerfs atm)

MISC:
Change color of all eggs (shield, egg toss, egg roll, egg lay) to correspond with Yoshi color.

NOTES:
I'll update this later, I needs sleep. Maybe I'll think of some better stuff by then.

 

[SOVAman]

NERFS:
Reduce utilt knockback, make it similar to that of Fox's. (lolol jk thats not a nerf but really, I couldn't think of any nerfs atm)

dats not a nerf thats a plus (easier combos)

 

[Deez.]

dats not a nerf thats a plus (easier combos)

Wait a minute! Lilb93 you learned to play brawl! why didn't you tell me this! you know we were both trying to figure out how to play this game at chu's Biweekly. ok now im pissed!

 

[Kiwikomix]

Buffs? I dunno, make dtilt's range equal to what its animation pretends it is, and I'll be happy.
Nerfs... get rid of the random invincibility frames he has every now and then.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

Jumping out of shield!

 

[Steeler]

lol the 'project' hasn't begun or anything. people are jumping the gun here, although discussion is always nice.

 

[Sharky]

decrease his friction a bit for more DR awesomeness =P

 

[bigman40]

Might as well not get too happy about it. The codes for a game can only hold 256 lines. That isn't enough to make an accurate patch.

But, if this were to even get anywhere, I'd have to say that we really can't change him too much. Changing his shield would deviate from his play style. So, in my opinion, here's the buffs and nerfs I thought for yoshi.

Buffs

1. Make Dsmash launch at a lower angle like it's self in melee (this would make it a good edgeguarding move and a viable kill move ), and increase knock back slightly.

2. Make the hitbox of the Dtilt like the animation. It shouldn't be like that.

3. Increase the Fsmash knock back. Since it's already a hard move to hit with, it should have the ability to efficiently kill at lower %s.

4. Make the priority on the Fair better. It doesn't need anything else than that so it can be used better.

5. Take out the "I can DI on every hit of the Dair" crap. That's more then annoying, and it's downright stupid for someone to be able to get out of a damage racking move that easily.

Nerfs

If I were to state them, then they would make Yoshi even better lol.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

.....*facepalm* your nerf sections are not cool

As nerfs are always more important for buffs (as a nerfed character can't break the game, but a buffed character can if done improperly).

Nerf's: Remove all his chaingrabs, every single 1 of them. There is no balance in the CG, instead they are a band-aid fix for actual balance when you look at Yoshi vs MK, or Yoshi vs Falco without a CG.

- Reduce Egg Roll's Priority, you may question this but well the egg lay can have some priority, but this should become a much more risky move, check my buff section for what I mean.

Ya my list of nerfs isn't too big, if there was anything else to nerf I'd say remove DR, but it's true value is uncertain and as such, there is no call to do this.

Buffs:
Egg roll, Give it strong Knockback, Egg roll is a move that can be easily punished, and has enough start up for virtually anyone to do so, if they are paying attention. As such this move should have a good reward for it's considerable risk. I said in my nerf section reduce it's priority, this is to make sure the risk is balanced out with the reward. The Knockback for Egg roll should by a bit higher, by a bit, significant enough that you know theres a difference, this should be the last resort surprise kill Yoshi pulls out.

Egg Toss, as it is now multiple uses of Egg toss result in the height bonus degrading.
This feature should stay, but to a less drastic level.
The first 2 uses of Egg toss should give you the exact same height, and then you start decreasing. Egg toss is not good for getting people off the ledge when your recovering, and at times Egg toss is your only thing that can even get you to the ledge, but once your there since your opponent can just hang there, Yoshi is left with nothing.
By removing the drastic degeneration (and replacing it with a better curve) Yoshi can atleast fair against people hogging the ledge vs him with better ease. While Yoshi's recovery is decent, he is still virtually the character who is affected by Foot stool Jumps the most. This could weaken the blow and even the ground to some extent for him.

Egg lay, increase the damage, it's up for Yoshi's to get this thing off, the range can't (well apparently can't) be increased and removing some frames makes it a spammy move. It should mostly stay the same, but give off more damage so that even though it can be broken out of easily, the opponent still feels something.
Increase the damage by about 3%.

Down Smash, reduce the frames by 2 and increase the Knockback.

dtilt, put a small amount of hitstun on this, the reason is that because of how it knocks the opponent away Yoshi cannot follow up, and while this would stay true even with hitstun (unless you wtf increased it) it allows him to try and close the distance gap inbetween their stun.

Back-air, decrease Knockback.
....=P

u-tilt, decrease knockback
f-tilt, reduce ending lag/give better IASA frames.
Although I could be wrong with what I wish =P.....

I expect someone to *facepalm* at my message >.>

 

[Mmac]

The project closed, so it looks like It's not going to take off.... at least anytime soon....

We pretty much covered everything already , so I am requesting a lock