Balancing Pokemon Trainer

[Thinkaman]

Link to original post: [drupal=692]Balancing Pokemon Trainer[/drupal]



Pokemon Trainer seeks to maximize use of all three sub-characters to make use of their combined advantages:
Squirtle seeks to safely build damage on the opponent with fast and evasive attacks.
Ivysaur seeks to safely build damage on the opponent with ranged attacks.
Charizard seeks to easily KO the opponent with quick, powerful attacks.

Pokemon Trainer is restricted by those with high mobility who can easily punish a Pokemon Change.
Squirtle has difficulty against characters with high priority, and is lightweight.
Ivysuar has trouble with fast moving, anti-camping characters, and is easily gimped.
Charizard is disadvantaged against characters with fast attacks and projectiles, and is easily comboed.

-Squirtle d-throw KOs easily.
+D-smashes of all Pokemon poor options.
+Squirtle B and Side-B largely useless.
+Ivysaur recovery terrible.
+Charizard aerials highly situational.

- Drastically reduce Squirtle D-Smash knockback growth.
- Reduce u-throw knockback.
- Reduce Squirtle aerial damage.
- Drastically reduce Squirtle fair, bair, uair knockback.

+ Increase hitstun on all Squirtle aerials.
+ Drastically increase base knockback on Squirtle d-throw and b-throw.
+ Increase Squirtle d-smash damage; add super armor.
+ Drastically increase Squirtle uncharged B hitstun.
+ Drastically increase Squirtle B charge capacity/knockback.
+ Increase Squirtle Side-B speed.

+ Drastically reduce ending lag for Ivysaur dair; increased vertical boost, can now help recovery.
+ Increase knockback growth for Ivysaur f-throw.
+ Increase damage for Ivysaur U-Smash.
+ Drastically increase base knockback for Ivysaur D-Smash.

- Reduce base knockback for Charizard b-throw.

+ Drastically increase glide speed.
+ Drastically increase knockback growth for Charizard bair, nair, uair.
+ Increase damage for fair sourspot.
+ Drastically increase Charizard D-Smash damage.

Squirtle is now a terrible character, unless the opponent is below 50%, in which case Squirtle is now the best character in the game. Modified Squirtle has almost no redeeming factors except for good evasion and unrivaled combo ability against low percent opponents.

Ivysaur is still an excellent damage builder with some KO potential, and the ability to create distance. Recovery can be slightly improved through clever use of dair, which I think is novel.

Charizard about the same, with a more reliable chainthrow at low percents and more KO options at high percents. Charizard should become one of the best KOers in the game, but remains poor at damage buildings unless he is allowed to get throws and rock smashes in.

On the whole, Pokemon Trainer has more capacity and more motivation to switch Pokemon. My main concern is that with these polarized setup, an early death on Charizard before a KO is achieved could prove terrible for PT...

 

[Steeler]

this is a horrible idea.

the way to balance pokemon trainer is by

1. making ivysaur better, as she is a bad character. the other two are average to above average.

2. allowing more freedom for switching.

to accomplish the first, you have the interesting idea of using dair to recover. it's clever and i like it. improving the dsmash is also nice, as it has great range but does absolutely nothing otherwise. which brings me to another similar move: bair. bair does 4 or 5% when fresh. making it so it does around 8-10% fresh would suddenly make people actually fear approaching her when she spaces with it. improving razor leaf would also be interesting, because as it stands, most other projectiles beat razor leaf camping, and ivysaur dearly relies on camping because its approach is pretty bad, particularly on the ground.

second, more freedom for switching. there's one simple solution to this, and it would be making the game load the character data before the match, instead of during it. i suspect this is impossible to hack though. another idea would be to give the pokemon 0 lag when they first become vulnerable to attack, so they can shield, spot dodge, attack, etc.

your plan to balance pt relies on pt using all three pokemon even more than he does now. what you fail to realize is that each pokemon has a few very bad matchups, and increased interdependence makes it ridiculously difficult for pt to overcome this, even if the other two do "okay".

the point is that all three pokemon are three COMPLETE characters, and should be played as such. extensively using each pokemon in each matchup is just a terrible idea, as none of the three are overpowered or terrific to begin with.

also, squirtle can already combo opponents to 50% with utilts -> uairs -> follow up aerials. the proposed nerf is unnecessary.

oh, also fatigue is stupid and the timer should be removed, if not the whole stamina system. pokemon trainer can be easily punished for it by generally campy, non-confrontational, and gay gameplay by mobile opponents.

 

[Thinkaman]

Obviously, we have completely different opinions on the entire point of Pokemon Trainer.

You seem to wish that all three Pokemon were separate character on the character select screen, and that the trainer in the background was thrown into a blender.

I think the entire point of Pokemon Trainer is that you have three characters. If you play Pokemon Trainer and switch often, you gain a substantial advantage. If you don't switch, you face steep penalties. If anything, I think the stamina timer should be *lower*! I *don't* think the pokemon are "COMPLETE" characters! Squirtle has an extremely low weight, any yet does not have any overwhelming advantages to make up for it like Jigglypuff, G&W, Kirby, or Meta Knight. Ivysaur is the closest thing to a complete character, but suffers in reliable KO power without much to overcome it. Charizard is pretty heavy and has great recovery, but that's negated and then some because he gets knocked around so much that he's perhaps the easiest character in the game to build damage on.

Pokemon Trainer is best played when you switch as to eliminate these massive handicaps. You shouldn't die at 70% or 80% as Squirtle, because you should be Ivysaur by then. You shouldn't have to take someone to 180% with Ivysaur to get a KO, because you can kill them as Charizard at 120%. You shouldn't have to worry about getting combo'd to 80% ridiculously fast as Charizard, because you shouldn't be Charizard at 0%.

Meanwhile, I am baffled that you somehow think Ivysaur is an outright bad character while the other two are above average. Ivysaur does not have reliable KO power, but is otherwise a pretty solid character. Razor leaf is a good projectile, due to it's unusual properties of passing through other objects. Bair is a FANTASTIC move, as is nair and to a lesser extent fair. F-tilt punishes ground attacks very well, F-Smash is surprisingly viable, and I actually hit people with dash attack and Vine Whip quite often.

Giving Pokemon Zero lag when changing is a terrible idea. It allows Pokemon to change at any time on the ground to get out of any situation with no penalty...

However, this reminds me of one big thing I forgot: I'd like it if Pokemon Trainer had an option to use Down-B to switch BACKWARDS. It would make stamina more of a problem if utilized, but it would give players more control over a match. (Like if you are a low percent Ivysaur and they are at a high percent, you'd prefer to switch to Squirtle than Charizard.) And yes, it would in some sense let you play a single Pokemon by allowing you to switch back to one that just died.

 

[Steeler]

what squirtle has over jiggles, gw, kirby, mk, etc is amazing ground mobility with shellshifting, and as such, a terrific grab game. coupled with dthrow, squirtle is a reliable killer. some pokemon trainers like to switch out of charizard, the "ko machine", because it's more effective to just get a quick dthrow in with squirtle. and, like kirby, jiggs, and mk, squirtle can very quickly and efficiently link attacks together at low percent, even with the lack of hitstun. squirtle is definitely one of the top 3 quickest overall attacking characters in the game. he also has better ko potential than jigglypuff, and slightly below kirby's level. mk is just a ridiculous gimper, but excluding that, squirtle has similar ko potential as well. and gw's smashes are just crazy dumb lol.

squirtle is a complete character. i recall A2ZOMG mentioning in a pt matchup discussion that inui thought squirtle was near s-rank in ability. i think that's a little exaggerated, but squirtle definitely is not a bad character.

ivysaur, on the other hand, is a fairly campy character, agreed? depends on good defensive options and razor leaf to pressure from afar. the problem with that is that ivysaur is often outcamped by other characters. as such, ivysaur has a very difficult time approaching, as his approach is already average at best against characters that can't camp exceedingly well. razor leaf is actually more like mario's fireballs, in that most cases, its most effectively used to help approach at mid range. and there's nothing wrong with that, it's just that ivysaur doesn't like to approach in general. for a character that depends more heavily than most on camping and forcing an approach, ivysaur is outclassed by too many characters.

you are also ignoring the biggest reason why ivysaur isn't as good as squirtle or charizard: recovery. it is dumb. ivysaur is one of the 5 slowest characters in brawl when it comes to moving horizontally. and that's why olimar's recovery isn't as big of a problem as ivysaur's, because when olimar di's well, he can usually make it within a double jump of the edge. and whistle armor doesn't hurt. when ivysaur di's well, its double jump is usually not enough to reach the edge. ivy's dj is average or worse anyway, in height. razor leaf helps a bit, but it does not travel very far. and ivysaur has to use it at a certain point, directly horizontal to the edge, or else it is pointless. good edgehogging players can time the hog around that obstacle, so it can't really be considered incredibly reliable at saving ivy from hogs.

bair is a good move, but it does only 4%. it's not as fantastic as gw's turtle, for example. it does a good job of spacing, but is pretty bad at actually damaging the opponent. the good thing is that it has little landing lag and can be followed up with an ftilt. bair on its own is not that great.

fsmash is very easy to predict, because it's ivysaur's only usable ko move on the ground. it isn't even all that strong with good di. usmash is very slow, dsmash is dumb, ftilt and dtilt don't kill, utilt only kills at like 150% with no or bad di. uthrow and bthrow also kill at around 150% at best. lack of good, quick options is not good for ivy. fsmash has good range, but is not incredibly safe on block. the most reliable ko move ivysaur has is fair.

i like how your (well, everyone's) biggest knock on charizard is that he's juggle bait, when the same is true of ivysaur. nair and bair are the only usable moves in these situations. nair has no range, so disjointed hitboxes negate its quickness. bair is nice, but it leaves ivysaur with a huge blindspot in front, slightly below, and above him.

in addition, charizard, like ivysaur, has good defensive options to prevent a juggle from occurring in the first place. zard has the best non tether grab range in brawl, along with flamethrower, rock smash, jabs that are quick and cover a good part of zard's body, dtilt, utilt, and usmash. all of these options are quick and most have good range. his grabs are incredibly important and cannot be understated. a good grab game is one of charizard's biggest positives as a character.

i think it's ironic that you think ivysaur is the most complete character, when he has the most trouble landing KOs and has one of the worst recoveries in the game, if not the worst.

pokemon trainers already play to eliminate 'massive' handicaps. the conflicting problem with this is that in any individual matchup, each pokemon is effective to a differing degree, both due to the inherent character strengths and weaknesses AND because of the pokemon trainer player's strongest and weakest pokemon. basically what i'm saying is that perhaps Charizard SHOULD be out at 0%, because Ivysaur matches up so poorly that you had to sacrifice it the previous stock so that Ivy wouldn't come out on a fresh stock and lose any advantage you had.

i think creating your own set order would be better than switching backwards. more flexibility to figure out what order works best in a given matchup. but they'd accomplish the same goal.

why encourage more switching between the pokemon without fixing pokemon switch as it is? i would certainly switch more, with the pokemon as they are, if pokemon switch weren't so punishable at low to mid percents.

edit: another problem with razor leaf camping is that you are slowly sucking time away from your stamina timer, which is why against a character that is equally effective at camping or better, ivysaur gets the short end of the stick.

 

[Retro Gaming]

The main problem I see with fatigue is the timer. The timer should be non-existent. Seriously, knowing that having Squirtle out and doing nothing but watching it do its idle dance for two minutes leads to being fatigued makes me furious. Let’s be realistic: Nothing becomes fatigued while doing absolutely nothing. I think that, if a fatigue system were to remain, it should be based only on moves that connect, similarly to stale move effects. What this would essentially give you is 120 moves before fatigue occurs (Perhaps lower this count slightly for balance).

Also, why do switch times vary? Why do the characters get loaded when a player chooses to switch, instead of before a match? This sometimes turns what would otherwise be a safe switch into the loss of a stock. In addition, why is Pokemon Trainer unable to switch in mid-air? I'm sure a little ingenuity could make a fair system that wouldn't let a Pokemon Trainer camp below the stage with switches.

And as far as I'm concerned, Charizard is the most complete character of the three. He has average ground and aerial game, an above average gimp game and an average recovery. On the other hand, Squirtle lacks KO power and range, while Ivysaur lacks recovery and the ability to land KOs.

Squirtle's specials are all pretty much useless. Unlike Mario's FLUDD, the pushback from Water Gun isn't very effective. I understand the charge is significantly less, but you're going to have a hard time canceling anything with Water Gun. Withdraw is a terrible option at almost all times because if you are footstool'd you inquire a period of vulnerability, which can lead to death off-stage. Not like there are any real advantages to using it, either. Minimal damage, easy to shield grab, and can be hit away from the stage when used to recover.

Ivysaur's main problem is lack of damage output and aerial movement. First of all, Bair needs to do more damage (approximately 8%). I don't even care if the knock back is increased or not, as long as this move does 5-8%, depending on staleness. Really, the only options Ivysaur has for effective damage are smashes (Not Dsmash), Ftilt, and Nair. You won't be able to pull out the smashes to damage, nor will you be able to Nair without letting opponents breach your spacing. Razor Leaf's priority needs to increase. Right now it has a nice effect of "going-through" certain solid objects (Waddles, Luigi's Mansion pillars, other characters, etc.) This needs to be much better. It should be able to beat most (if not all) solid projectiles.

Pokemon Trainer should be a reflection of the Pokemon games. In those, you do not use every Pokemon versus every opponent but are more often trying to set up your most capable Pokemon to defeat your opponent, while your other Pokemon are helping you get a set-up or else sitting out because they are ineffective. The current system is too strict; it requires you to make switches, even when you wouldn't do it in good judgment. (Would you send in Squirtle on Eirka?)

 

[Steeler]

retro explains stuff better than i do. :D

 

[Zephramrill]

yeah retro just won the thread. I find Fatigue and switch so infuriating

 

[Plum]

Instant switch would be a bit unfair, faster certainly, like as fast as it could happen in the show, but punishable like it is in the games. You switch mid battle and your opponent could get a hit on you. In Brawl as it is that one hit can spell death, so rather make it fast enough where as it still has the option to be a bad choice but only if the opponent sees it coming and can get to you quick enough. I don't see how that would be unfair at all, as Zelda/Shiek use a system like that and they can also switch in the air. Anyone who watched an episode of the show could see Ash switching mid air, shouldn't Red be able to too?

Ivy was one of those characters who got worse over time. Thought to be great minus recovery in the beginning until the metagame developed to show more. Her ground game isn't as great as some think and her aerial game is just missing without a better spacing move or some decent mobility. She is in the most need of improvements.
Charizard is a pretty reliable tank and will more than often take out a stock before dying himself with his kill power and above average recovery.
Squirtle just needs some sunglasses and he would instant win. (I am remembering so much about that show now ) Kinda like how dark blue Yoshi needs some sunglasses (for any Super Mario RPG fans out there)