Back-throw suicide.

[Wiwiweb]

Hi everyone.

Recently, I tryed to see who is killed first when you Kirbycide with a back-throw.
I used two human player, with one not playing, in a one stock Melee. I found both characters were killed together, no matter what the opponent is.... but...
Then I took Player 2 controler by mistake instead of Player 1... and strangely, now the opponent was dying before Kirby. I tested many things and it seems Player 1 dies with the opponent while Player 2, 3 and 4 dies after the opponent.

Was I correct or did i do a mistake ? Does dying order is really affected by the number of the player ? What have you discovered ?

Thanks for the answers.

 

[~Tac~]

Hi everyone.

Recently, I tryed to see who is killed first when you Kirbycide with a back-throw.
I used two human player, with one not playing, in a one stock Melee. I found both characters were killed together, no matter what the opponent is.... but...
Then I took Player 2 controler by mistake instead of Player 1... and strangely, now the opponent was dying before Kirby. I tested many things and it seems Player 1 dies with the opponent while Player 2, 3 and 4 dies after the opponent.

Was I correct or did i do a mistake ? Does dying order is really affected by the number of the player ? What have you discovered ?

Thanks for the answers.

Thats a REALLY good question. But it seems that on 1 of the 3 parts of the ledge, character size, AND stage makes all the difference. That being said...its vitually unknown as that would make over 5,000 possibilities and combonations.

So in short words, suicide is a gamble. 3 chances.
~Pray it works and the opponent dies first.
~You die first and lose the entire match on a .33% chance.
~You both lose, and take a risk in sudden death. (Depends on melee type.)

 

[Wiwiweb]

I used the same charachters and the same stages, so the only other thing it could be is randomness, like you said. It would surprise me because I tryed many times. I'll have to try again with another character.

 

[Buttcrust]

When I practiced this I noticed some degree of unexplainable "randomness" but in general the bigger, heavier characters died first consistantly.

My theory is that the bottom of the stage (where the explosions of death occur) is not completely flat. I've noticed some randomness in swallowcides as well. I think maybe there is some very slight contour to the bottom and that it depends where you hit the kill line.

So, if your weren't standing in exactly the same place at the start of each throw it could have affected your results... if my theory is correct that is.

 

[Red Exodus]

My guess is, if you grab a tall opponent like Ganondorf he'll die first, but if you try with another Kirby or a Fox or Falco you'll both die or you'l die first most likely.

Also, have any of you grabbed an opponent, bthrowed and they just seem to slip out of the grab? It happens to me all the time, it's annoying >.>

 

[~Tac~]

When I practiced this I noticed some degree of unexplainable "randomness" but in general the bigger, heavier characters died first consistantly.

My theory is that the bottom of the stage (where the explosions of death occur) is not completely flat. I've noticed some randomness in swallowcides as well. I think maybe there is some very slight contour to the bottom and that it depends where you hit the kill line.

So, if your weren't standing in exactly the same place at the start of each throw it could have affected your results... if my theory is correct that is.

I agree. For some reason, I think depending on the stage..the "even-ness" of the death line below the stage differs in altitude and shape. For example, Final destination is flat. The underside slants down into a cone/pointed shape. The closer to the pointed areas that are lower to the line of death, that line slightly rises. Thats just my theory.

*My picture screwed up so I took it off*

 

[Wiwiweb]

My experiments

Ok, so here is what i did...

First, i wanted to see if the opponent's character was influencing death order.
I did some 1 stock matches with Kirby for P1 and another char for P2, always in Final Destination ; Here are the results :
Pichu -> Sudden Death
Bowser -> Kirby Wins
I did it many times and it's always the same result, no "random thing" invoved. I did that with Ganondorf too, just to be sure i was right and he dies before Kirby, like Bowser.

So it seems bigger characters dies before Kirby while small ones dies in the same moment. That's not a discovery, i'm sure you knew before, but here's the interesting part :

All these matches were made with Kirby as P1. Now, I put Kirby as P2 and the opponent as P1.
Pichu -> Kirby Wins
Bowser -> Kirby Wins
Anyone else -> Kirby Wins.
Yeah, the strange part is the Pichu. He dies at the same moment if Kirby is P1 and he dies before Kirby if Kirby is P2. I tryed it many times and it's always the same result, so there is no randomness involved. Try it !
So it seems hte player's number is influencing the death order... how strange ! By the way, I have a PAL version because I'm French, maybe that's it...

 

[Sliq]

I was under the impression that, regarding the size issue, t!mmy had already figured this out.

I am, however, intrigued by the controller port thing. Does it matter which controller port they are? Like if Pichu was port 1 and Kirby port 2, and Pichu dies first, is this the same if Pichu is port 4?

 

[TheHiveMind]

swallowcides are better.

 

[t!MmY]

I've pretty much always play port 3 (for the yellow star) so never noticed port differences before. The reason behind this could be something to do with port priority. For instance, "SD Priority" would be given to the lower controller port first, which would explain why Kirby wins when not P1.

Usually it's better to have priority over another play (exchanging blows, etc), but I guess not in this case. Lol.

 

[Wiwiweb]

In short, dont ever be Player 1 again

 

[~Tac~]

Roflmuffins. Nah, player slot has nothing to do with it. Although I just prefer being on the egde rather than middle. P1 and P4.

 

[Wiwiweb]

Well then, how is it possible that P1 Kirby always dies with Pichu while P2 Kirby always dies after Pichu . Try it, you'll see.

 

[Sliq]

Roflmuffins. Nah, player slot has nothing to do with it. Although I just prefer being on the egde rather than middle. P1 and P4.

Did you just decide not to read any of the posts, because he has DATA that proves your "lolling" comment wrong. Read a topic before you post. For our benefit and yours (so we don't waste our time reading, and so you don't waste your time writing (and also so you don't look like an idiot)).

I'm sorry if I'm coming off as harsh, but laziness and stupidity are things that shouldn't be tolerated (not saying persecute, I'm saying change it so that they aren't lazy and stupid...which is what I'm trying to do).

 

[~Tac~]

Did you just decide not to read any of the posts, because he has DATA that proves your "lolling" comment wrong. Read a topic before you post. For our benefit and yours (so we don't waste our time reading, and so you don't waste your time writing (and also so you don't look like an idiot)).

I'm sorry if I'm coming off as harsh, but laziness and stupidity are things that shouldn't be tolerated (not saying persecute, I'm saying change it so that they aren't lazy and stupid...which is what I'm trying to do).

I don't take it harshly at all, just a discussion of opinions. But I'm pretty much 95% positive that controller slot doesn't affect a character's fall speed and death-line explosion order. As I posted earlier, 2nd or 3rd. Theres so many combonations, its virtually impossible to test them all without getting bored or having a CPU do this each of the 5000+ times.
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I just tested this about 50 times in total. Used all possible scenarios in 1 stock matches.
1) P1 vs P2 - Grabbed Pichu from front and back.
2) P1 vs P3- Grabbed Pichu from front and back.
3) P1 vs P4- Grabbed Pichu from front and back.
4) P2 vs P3- Grabbed Pichu from front and back.
5) P2 vs P4- Grabbed Pichu from front and back.
6) P3 vs P4- Grabbed Pichu from front and back.

I'm not going to list all the results, but the short version is that the controller slot made no difference in death order. Pichu and Kirby died in randomized orders, and about 60% of the deaths they died at the same time. Each had 0%, no handicap, damage ratio 1.0.

Thus I'm sticking with my first theory that back-throw suiciding is a .33 chance of:
~You die first
~Opponent dies first
~You both die at the same time and risk sudden death.

If that differs from you, then I'd guess that different versions have different results. Either way, its a risk.

 

[Wiwiweb]

I see what you mean. I was thinking you were wrong because, if you do the same match 5 times in a row, it'll be the same results, so there's no random involved. But you are saying there is so many combinations it's like random, right ? In that case, maybe it's right...

By the way, I did my tests in Super Sudden Death Mode, to be sure the opponent wont break out of the throw while falling.

 

[CJR]

Its a good theory about the controller ports, and you were sharp in spotting it. If controller ports did make a difference, I think the effect would be manifest in other parts of the game. Has anyone made a mention about a port preference for a priority advantage? Kirby can't be the only character which cares about a single frame difference...