B-sticking-Pros vs. Cons

[Tyr_03]

I've noticed a lot of people are wondering whether they should learn B-sticking or stick with default controls so I thought I'd make a list of the goods and bads of both that people are welcome to add to and consider while making their controller choices.

Pros
-Allows retreating PK Fires
-Zap Jump is much easier
-Magnet Pull is easier to control and use

Cons
-Harder to control DI for earials
-A chance of tripping on forward smashes (due to smashed analog stick)
-Have to get used to new controls if used to melee controls

 

[Levitas]

Yes, you can still SDI with the bstick set. The cstick doesn't normally do any SDI, and ASDI doesn't exist in this game, so it makes no difference.

That said, the third con is trivial. Getting used to new controls should be excluded because for this argument we should really be comparing the ideal bstick lucas vs the ideal non-bstick lucas.

I was playing against another Lucas today that goes by Rofa (he lurks here sometimes). He doesn't bstick, I do. I had a huge advantage on him as a direct result: I could out camp him solidly. So another pro could be that it helps determine lucas dittos in favor of the bstick user.

Another important pro for bsticking is that using the bstick helps lucas mask aerial approaches. If you've been jumping forawards almost into their range and then shooting backwards due to the wavebounce a bunch, then the opponent won't be as likely to be prepared for a normal SH Nair or Fair approach, as it starts off looking identical to the bstick pk fire.

 

[Manu]

Just to bring up a point, a dedicated non bsticker could easily emulate the bstick. Tho harder to do would allow that player to move off the edge and do some nasty spikes. That and I have yet to see the Bstick be able to perform the dash assisted Pkfire waveland. Though really I don't have a choice since my gc controller went gimpy.

 

[Levitas]

Um, you do the dash assisted PK waveland the same way as normal when you have the bstick config. And if you're good at using the wavebounce without the bstick, that's great for you, do it by all means. However, I think it's far easier to do aerials with A and Z (another mod I use) than it is to spam wavebounce pk fires with an unmodified control scheme.

Ok, you can ignore everything I just said because I'm probably bsticking's strongest advocate. I'll leave the supporting to anyone else that feels it's good for a while.

 

[Tyr_03]

I can't use "helps determine dittos" as a pro because there's no way of knowing whether you were just better than this other person who doesn't B-stick while you do. It could be he just had a harder time adjusting to it than others would which isn't a good thing to put on pros either because if people continue to use B-sticking then most people will learn to adjust to its playing style. Also I think the third con is a valid point because it is still an issue for players new to Brawl if they have been playing melee and should be considered when choosing a controller option. As far as I'm concerned the verdict is still out on whether wavebouncing is absolutely necesary as a Lucas player or not. I think until more tournament statistics have been gathered it would be unfair to say that it is.

 

[Levitas]

So far I'm aware of Galeon's tournament win with bsticking, what does Non-bsticking have so far?

 

[Manu]

tourney vids of that would be nice. and when I think of it dapkwl (don't you love acronyms) is possible but just not in the way I would find comfortable.

edit: I need to lurk moar =/ found the vids and will start studying.

 

[Trozz]

Retreating PK Fires make it worthwhile imo. I love mixing up advancing fires with retreating ones. Zap jumping is too difficult to pull off every time to make it really practical for recovery (though I do it anyway from time to time).

 

[Manu]

As much as I disdain bstick for Lucas I love it on Pikachu. Quack attacks are much easier, and that led me to the pktech Tyr discovered that also seems easier with bstick.

 

[TechnoMonster]

I still use non B-stick, I try to space effectively without it, and I feel I still play effectively.

 

[Aevin]

I love it. I find that the adjustments in controls are trivial. With the up disabled as a jump, I have no problem placing my aerials where I want them using the control stick and A button. Instant smash attacks were convenient, but not at all difficult to replicate with quick fingers. When B-sticking, you get to mix up your PK Fire landings, alternating between the B-sticked and non-b-sticked to throw opponents off guard, and get the extra bonus of the turn around on the aerials, which I find very useful for landing spikes. With retreating PK Fires, even opponents who know my tricks well are hard pressed to pursue me and take advantage of the PK Fire lag. It really works wonders, in my opinion.

 

[GofG]

The reason why Levitas (and me for that matter) so fervently encourages b-sticking is because of how he believes Lucas should be played. That is, your "neutral" state, when you aren't really doing anything, should be spent PKFing. It's not like you're spamming it for damage, but rather, you're simply limiting their approach options and at the same time you have the option of quickly advancing on them at any moment by simply SHPKFing instead of WBing.

 

[Powda]

I personally feel B-sticking is necessary against some matchups and you are limiting yourself by avoiding it. Wavebouncing is extremely hard without it and you miss it more often at critical times. Being able to pull out the psi magnet on a wim helps out a ton against characters like Pit.
You have 2 types of Zap jumps that send you in 2 directions. I believe the B-stick Zap jump is a huge part of lucas mind games. Performing a B-stick zap jump without the B-stick is near impossible.


I don't even know why there is argument about the B-stick..I almost feel like the people who ask are the ones not even trying it out. It is night and day IMO.

 

[Jihnsius]

Whether a technique is easy or hard is no arguement as to whether or not B-Sticking is better than C-Sticking. Every technique used with the B-Stick can be emulated just as well without given enough practice, though every technique performed with the C-Stick cannot be emulated with the B-Stick. Overall, B-Stick is easier, yes, but C-Stick is better.

 

[Levitas]

Jihnsius, there's a funny thing about the statement you just made that I'm not usre if you've realized. The aerial control that you want to accomplish with the cstick is actually the same difficulty to pull off without the cstick as pulling a bstick emulation through normal controls. In fact, the button input is exactly the same substituting B for A if you wanted to do a fair with full aerial control backwards.

I could say it's entirely possible to do all the aerial control things without the cstick, just impractical, and I could say that it's impractical to do the wavebounce without the bstick, but entirely possible. That doesn't change the fact that nobody will wavebounce PK F with normal controls unless they're intentionally trying to make their fingers tired quickly.

 

[Jihnsius]

I guess that makes sense, as either way you're going to be losing a couple frames of accuracy which could measure out to a few units of measurement in certain situations, whether it be B-Sticking a PK Fire or C-Sticking an aerial. However, it might be useful to also bring up the fact that sacrificing the C-Stick for smashes and aerials will also force you to DI a direction you may not want to in certain situations, whereas sacrificing the B-Stick does the same thing to your special attacks.

I guess, logically, neither is better, it's just a matter of convenience depending on your playstyle.

 

[Tyr_03]

yeah I have to say this may be an entirely personal thing based upon your playing style. A more aggressive Lucas player may want to stay with the c-stick while a more defensive Lucas may prefer b-sticking. I've used both and am still not sure which one I'm going to stick with. Both have their issues. My biggest irritation with b-sticking is accidently using the wrong B move because I angled the c-stick slightly. But that's just my own inadequacy as far as I can tell.

 

[Jihnsius]

On a less technical and more physiological standpoint, I'd say that anyone used to C-Sticking that wants to play Lucas to his full potential should switch to B-Sticking. After having been getting used to B-Sticking, I find myself smash attacking a lot less often, saving their knockback for when you can put them to better use.

 

[Powda]

Levitas took the words out of my mouth.

I see 2 situations here. Bstick and Cstick.

To me all moves performed with the Cstick and Bstick can be performed without the stick at all. So the stick in essence is there to allow you to perform harder moves faster.

I for one find little to no lag performing smash attacks in Brawl. In melee I could see and feel the difference in speed but in Brawl I can smash attack just as fast as the Cstick can. Correct me if I am wrong plz.

However, with all the B moves I cannot perform certain moves consistantly with the same ease. Bstick zap jumping for instance, or wave bouncing. Yes they can be emulated but like levitas said not practical.

Edit.
So ya, just a matter of preference....is it harder for you to get smash attacks off or B moves off, up to you.

 

[shae_hawk]

For me, the B-sticking really didn't make alot of sense until I played more and more characters it could be used against. My main opponents are G&W, Falco, and Peach. All are characters where your PKF is ridiculously gimped. Peach has great approach on it, G&W has that dang bucket and Falco with his better projectile (imo) and reflector. You just can't use it as much on them or you may find yourself in bad situations.

Then I started playing Marth, Ike, Kirby, Pokemon Trainer, R.O.B., and it made way more sense. In these matches you can use Bstick PKF to its full potential. Against Marth and Ike especially that extra spacing really helps. I find B-sticking overall really suits Lucas' play style, even if its a bit hard to get used to at first.

 

[Mr.E]

I've certainly never had trouble performing Zap Jumps regardless, though, but it does allow for B-Sticking Zap Jumps into a high Magnet Pull. Another advantage barely mentioned once in the thread so far is auto-RARing BAirs.

Honestly, I don't see much reason not to learn to B-Stick if you plan on maining Lucas. He gets far more of a benefit from it than any other character and the only real disadvantage is what, you can't space a SHFF FAir as well? How often do you do that anyway when NAir is generally safer and combos better? The hardest part is weaning yourself off the C-Stick smashing, namely the Stick since his DSmash has rare uses and USmash is so slow it hardly matters.

In somewhat related news, learning B-Sticking controls helped me play Toon Link better as well, who can B-Stick his Boomerang to great effect and loves auto-RARing into BAir combos with full forward momentum. Completely off-base from how much it helps Lucas, but those who are hesitant to switch should realize these skills are useful for more than just this one character.

 

[toasty]

Jihnsius, there's a funny thing about the statement you just made that I'm not usre if you've realized. The aerial control that you want to accomplish with the cstick is actually the same difficulty to pull off without the cstick as pulling a bstick emulation through normal controls. In fact, the button input is exactly the same substituting B for A if you wanted to do a fair with full aerial control backwards.

I could say it's entirely possible to do all the aerial control things without the cstick, just impractical, and I could say that it's impractical to do the wavebounce without the bstick, but entirely possible. That doesn't change the fact that nobody will wavebounce PK F with normal controls unless they're intentionally trying to make their fingers tired quickly.

The point, at least for me, is that having more control over my aerials is more important to me and more akin to my current playstyle than wavebouncing. I've said it before: it all depends on your style of play. I might have to adopt bsticking for specific matchups. It'll just take a lot of time and practice being able to switch fluidly. So far my experiences with Bsticking haven't been horrible but they don't really go with my playstyle enough for me to lose my cstick aerials.
I've also made good use of the change in Brawl where if you hold up or down on the control stick you can't up or down smash [respectively] with the Cstick, instead you will up and down tilt [both of which are awesome for Lucas, and in an intense moment I've pressed up too hard to do a tilt and I did a smash instead...and you KNOW how that goes when you miss an upsmash.]

I know I'm repeating myself, but you really have to understand: it depends on your playstyle.

I didn't read the second page of posts so if someone else ranted along the same lines as I did, my bad for repeating.

 

[shadowfox2769]

personally i set my tilts to the c-stick but the only problem w/ that is if u hit 2 in a row really fast you start to jump...

 

[Seanson]

the following part refers to easiness of performing functions:

with bstick or cstick, you have 2 almost exactly the same situations. the c stick allows for straight momentum aerials, meaning you can keep moving forward while doing a back air.

1. the b stick can be done the same effect by using a b move one way then quickly tapping the j stick the other way.
2. doing straight momentum aerials without the c-stick is holding a direction, for a microsecond tapping the other direction and attacking, then holding the initial direction again.

in essense, these are the exact same joystick movements, but if you use c stick, you need to hit B to get the b stick effect, or if you use the b stick, you need to hit A to get the c-stick effect. in the end, i think it comes down to what one you do more. obviously moving one direction while attacking in the other is a defensive tactic, so it comes down to which attack is better: pk fire or forward/back aerials. They each have their pros and cons.

remember that everything can be done regardless of your control setup. to do both b-sticking AND c-sticking you will need to get good at joystick movements and fast button pressing anyways. so stick with the one you like.

 

[Fishcake56]

This is my experience with b-stick versus c-stick.

I learned about b-sticking before I purchased Brawl so I have been using this setup for Lucas for a month or so. Of course, I found that using the b-stick made spacing with pk fire a breeze. I also discovered that b-sticked psi magnets were amazing for off-the-stage spikes and magnet infinite edge-stalls. I also owned a ridiculously old gamecube controller with no up/down smash functionability and so I learned how to pk thunder with the bstick. The b-stick allows for an amazingly intuitive control of Lucas's special attacks.

Initially, the people I played against were swept away by the ferocity of Lucas's tricks. The pk fire spam was especially harrowing for my friends. However, like all good players, they adapted. And quick. They learned to avoid the attack through hearing, since there is a slight delay in between Lucas saying the first part of "PEE KAY FYE-UR" and the attack actually coming out of his hands. Little by little my wavebounce advantage was demolished as they short hopped fast fell air dodged to approach, attacked the bolt head on, or SH jumped over the buggers entirely.

I was not a strong melee player. I am not a strong melee player. I am a melee scrub. Having defeated all of my friends in middle school, my shiek was shelved during high school after losing to a Peach played by a guy on the football team. I hold no strong feelings for melee but I see now that I should have learned the basics of character movement before giving up the stuff. I didn't even c-stick for pete's sake. As a result, my Lucas suffered from stilted aerials and perpetually inaccurate fsmashes.

I reviewed my playstyle and concluded that I needed to learn how to c-stick my aerials before b-sticking burned itself into my muscle memory. So I changed things up.

Immediately, I became a more offensive Lucas. As someone mentioned before, b-sticking lends itself to a more defense-oriented style of play whereas c-sticking is the complete opposite. I was actually consistently getting kills on characters at or below a hundred percent. Most of this was due to the amazing discovery of c-sticked bairs. No longer having to rely on occasional pk thunder gimp kills and difficult magnet spikes for below-100 kills, I began widening the stock gap between my opponent and myself from one to two stocks (occasionally three stocking some people who were still used to my defensive camping). Of course, the fast fmashes (very noticeable against quick foes) and appropriately timed dsmashes helped as well.

I have also come along in terms of spacing. C-sticked aerials are amazing for spacing, especially when your opponent is used to approaching nairs and shield-grabs through them all the time. The most amazing aspect of c-sticked aerials that I’ve experienced so far is the increased likelihood of baiting the opponent. Whereas b-sticked pk fire is both an offensive and defensive tool, spamming the move stalls the game and doesn’t really open up any approaches for you or your opponent. A smart foe won’t rush in blindly, get nailed by a fire, and be punished for it. They will approach carefully and IF they get hit, then chances are you will be recovering from the small landing lag on the pk fire and won’t be able to follow up with anything fast enough to really make them pay. Maybe they will get hit just to see how you will react, who knows. I know that c-sticking a fair/bair can have some devastating consequences if it hits AND still provide enough spacing to be tricky to punish if it doesn’t. I believe a c-sticked aerial is a b-sticked pk fire with greater risk/reward.

I have come across two techniques in the tactical discussions board which make c-sticking (or even tilt-sticking) even more appealing; true pivot and pivot fmash. Both accomplish the same goal as spacing techniques, though the latter is more limited. I suppose you can even pivot dmash with the former. Both techniques are most effective using a c-stick setup as opposed to a b-stick setup. I am trying to incorporate them into my play.

True Pivot (by phanna): http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=162220

Pivot fmash (also by phanna): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2X9oqJEXYMM

Feel free to disagree and explain how b-sticking is all sorts of pwnsaucedeluxe. I am still learning.

 

[toasty]

Music to my ****ing ears.

 

[Shibby]

I personally feel B-sticking is necessary against some matchups and you are limiting yourself by avoiding it. Wavebouncing is extremely hard without it and you miss it more often at critical times. Being able to pull out the psi magnet on a wim helps out a ton against characters like Pit.
You have 2 types of Zap jumps that send you in 2 directions. I believe the B-stick Zap jump is a huge part of lucas mind games. Performing a B-stick zap jump without the B-stick is near impossible.


I don't even know why there is argument about the B-stick..I almost feel like the people who ask are the ones not even trying it out. It is night and day IMO.

I have my control stick tap up jump set to off. I recently switched to "B-Stick" so I'm still working on that.

Is is possible to do a zap jump with "tap up jump" off? Unless I have jump set to left trigger I guess...

 

[Deeja]

I was skeptical about b-sticking at first because i figured i was doing well without it so why bother, but then i saw a few videos of it put to use and figured i should take it up. At first it was really hard to get use to after playing one way for a month so i just forgot about it. Now that i have a tournament coming up on friday i figured i'd better learn it, and after a day or two i'm use to it, and i must say it makes a huge difference, and i'm glad i took the time to learn it.

 

[sine qua non]

I'm willing to bet that 90% of people who notion for C-stick over B, have not actually used it for more than 10 minutes.

If a character has advanced physics, you utulize them. (And yes, I'm basically saying that someone who uses C-stick wavebounces much less than a B-sticker) Watch all the Lucas vids you want, and determine who uses C and who B, its quite simple. Once you've done this, you can get a general idea of how each play style prevails.

(However, falling into any certain pattern reveals a weakness)

 

[MASTER719]

I wish the Classic controller had two C-Sticks, then their 'd be no problem

 

[toasty]

I'm willing to bet that 90% of people who notion for C-stick over B, have not actually used it for more than 10 minutes.

I'll admit that I haven't tried it much. As I've said before, it doesn't sound as appealing considering my style of play and my near dependence on the cstick for aerials. The main reason why I haven't invested time in it is because it would take me an incredibly great amount of time to 1) get used to bsticking, 2) develop a good style using it, 3) switch back to Csticking with my other characters without accidentally trying to Bstick [and vice versa]
and...well...I'm 23. And the real world is catching up to me. I simply don't have that kind of time anymore

 

[Tyr_03]

I've spent hours on both and prefer the regular c-stick. I keep an extra name with b-sticking controls on in just in case I feel like using it though. As fun as annoying the heck out of people by spamming PK Fire is, I find I'm more effective playing a more agressive Lucas. I'm sure it's different for different players though.

 

[Levitas]

Vidjo's lucas never approaches, making it the opposite of any aggressive lucas.

Also, his lucas is considerably better than mine, helped no doubt by the fact that he's flat out better at this game.

 

[Foxy]

From playing a ton against GofG's Lucas I can at least say that retreating PKF's are Lucas' best tool.

Honestly, even if I'm playing "perfect defense", which is obviously the most useful mindset in Brawl, and he can't land a single PKF on me, it still pressures and helps him keep distance.

If my defense is weaker or I'm playing particularly offensively, I can take a lot of PKF's in the face without really noticing. The greatest thing (for Lucas) about wavebouncing PKF is that often times I'm about to run in and approach, sometimes to punish PKF startup lag, but often times without even seeing the animation begin, and suddenly Lucas just shoots away a ridiculous range and my approach becomes totally worthless.

I'm not sure if any of that made sense - these school computers make the quick reply box about an square inch in size - so I couldn't really remember or see anything I said.