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B-sticking Pikachu worth it?

Dreminem

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 31, 2007
Messages
41
Location
Raleigh NC
I just want to get suggestions because I have been testing out this B-sticking thing. It works great with edgeguarding and a defensive thunder. It also makes QAC easier for me. But I was wondering if it was worth losing the C-stick to smash. I am alittle slower on smashing people and sometimes I do Dtilts instead of Dsmash. It is hard to smash out of shields to because you crouch first so I have to press down down+A to smash out of shield.

It also helps with RAR but that isn't that big of a deal with pikachu.

Anyways, is it worth it or should I forget about it.
 

leafgreen386

Dirty camper
Joined
Mar 20, 2006
Messages
3,577
Location
Playing melee and smash ultimate
Losing the cstick to do aerials makes it far harder, maybe impossible, to perform a sh'd dair without landing lag. You're also losing some ability to DI on pika's aerials, which is a big hindrance as far as I'm concerned. Instant smashing, when you have stuff like pika's down and up smashes, just seems bad to lose in general.

I, personally, am going to learn to master the QAC and reverse thunder using the regular smash-stick, as it is very much humanly possible to do so and accurately, but it is physically impossible to be pressing both forward and back on the control stick at the same time. People were able to master infinite drillshines with fox in melee and easily use them in combat. I see no reason why a little control stick precision should be so hard to get down when pikachu has had a multi-directional quick attack since the N64 days, that in every game so far people have learned how to accurately control. So unless it's impossible for you to reverse thunder without the B-stick, I just don't see how the advantages can outweigh the disadvantages.
 

Metzger

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 1, 2008
Messages
110
Impossible to SH D-Air lagless? Are you kidding? It's probably easier to do without the C-Stick unless you're not jumping with the buttons.

As for the DI on aerials and instant smashes though, I'm inclined to agree when it comes to competitive play. It is much easier to QAC with the C-Stick - to the point that there are certain QAC maneuvers that are probably not possible without it - but the question is really what QAC options are you going to be able to utilize effectively. A lot of the extra QAC potential of the C-Stick is mindgames and not practical combo/approach utility.

That said, learning how to 1-frame smash without the C-Stick isn't that hard either, it's more of a question of how reliably you do it. If you find yourself D-Tilting or U-Tilting often when going for uncharged smashes sans C-Stick, you're probably going to lose more of your game setting C-Stick to specials.

Figure out which you have more trouble pulling off consistently and lean on the C-Stick for that area of your game.
 

Dreminem

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 31, 2007
Messages
41
Location
Raleigh NC
Well, I am pretty good at smashing. I haven't really tried to use the thing where you press DownB and back for the same effect of B-sticking.

To the first poster, I never said it would be hard for me to perfect the Up-B, I pretty much had it perfected other than a few mistakes I would make. I just find it easier to use it with the C-stick for precision. I can jump and aim right at the person's spot without having to worry about moving the analog stick from the up position to the exact spot. With B-sticking you can aim at the spot prior to using quick attack.

It makes it easier to do a quick Dair right next to them and such. It is also easier to hit them with lightning too since you don't have to go from up to diagnol to down. Not too hard but sometimes you don't go far enough from switching to down too early. It isn't really a problem of perfecting quick attack.

I think it is just a decision between which one is harder to perfect. I think I will try staying with B-sticking for awhile to see how it goes. If I can't Dsmash and do auto-cancelling very well I will switch back probably.

I still don't understand what you meant when you said it would be harder to use Dair and auto-cancel it with B-sticking. I thought it had almost nothing to do with it. It seems much harder to move from Y to C-stick than Y to A.
 

leafgreen386

Dirty camper
Joined
Mar 20, 2006
Messages
3,577
Location
Playing melee and smash ultimate
Ah, well, the sh dair thing may just be a problem I have, rather than one that's universal. I sh with X, and for some reason I find it easier and quicker to hit the cstick down after that than to hit the A button and down on the control stick.

And I'm not exactly sure what you were getting at with it not having to do with "perfecting QA." I would consider having a high degree of precision with it to be a part of perfecting it, but w/e.

Figure out which you have more trouble pulling off consistently and lean on the C-Stick for that area of your game.
No truer thing has been said in this thread, or at all for that matter, on the topic of smash vs special for the cstick.
 

Metzger

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 1, 2008
Messages
110
I found it was helpful to practice SH aerials (when messing with Ganondorf at the time) to hold down just before I hit my SH with the X button (or diagonal-down if I wanted the DI) and roll from X to A pretty much immediately. After practicing like that for a while it becomes much more natural than C-Sticking for SH D-Airs in my opinion, and you don't seem to lose any DI potential.
 

Tagxy

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 10, 2007
Messages
1,482
It is hard to smash out of shields to because you crouch first so I have to press down down+A to smash out of shield.
You have to stall a second. If you notice the smash out of shield doesnt happen right away, if you time it right you should hit it at the same time a c-stick would, and with practice consistency.

A lot of the extra QAC potential of the C-Stick is mindgames and not practical combo/approach utility.
I think there's definitely a lot of approach utility. Maybe it's just me but it seems like you'd need super human reflexes to pull of multiple QAC's from different directions. I found myself being more repetitive in battle if I wanted to do 4 or 5+ QAC's and the predictability was becoming punishable. Now instead of several left down, left-down, left-down QAC's, I can do a left-down followed up with a down-left followed up with a diagnol followed up with a left, diagnolback.

I don't know, it just seems like because of the nature of the QA (being quick and all), having the ability to deal with direction alone on the analog stick gives you much broader approach abilities all around.

I posted this somewhere else.

So now that brawl allows you to map the c-stick to other attacks, it might be a good idea to have a discussion about the advantages different mappings can have for pika so people can decide what works best for them.

So, this is my understanding so far. I might have errors so feel free to make any corrections.

So I think there's essentially three useful mappings, the standard one is

Smash - Smash lets you smash in any direction when you're standing still (dash attack if you're running) and do aerials while you're in the air. IMO, now that you can change the c-stick this seems like the least useful one. C-stick aerials are certainly cool because it allows you to DI (or not DI) the entire time rather then have to input the aerial direction then DI or worry about accidently DIing with the aerial direction you push. However, I find that smashing with the c-stick is just as easy without it, and there's nothing the the c-stick provides to smashing that you can't do the regular way given enough practice (plus its easier to stall a smash or charge it the regular way)

Attack - Attack lets you do the tilt attacks in their respective direction, as well as aerials. I already went over the importance of aerials for the c-stick in the smash. Tilts imo opinion are harder to pull off for all their applications then a smash, especially a side tilt. But more importantly, tilts allow you freedom of movement that a smash attack does not. For instance, I can move sideways and do an up or down tilt or crouch and spam utilts/side tilts, something that becomes impractical or impossible without the c-stick mapped to attack.

This was never relevant to smash attacks because I could hold pikachus movement in a direction/make him crouch, do the smash before his movement,crouching animation would end, and then have my finger back in the position he was headed/facing before the smash attack would even finish.

Special - This might be one that's only worth it for pikachu. He can do all his directional b-attacks and through voodoo magic his neutral (I can explain how, but its really not worth it). His side b doesn't have a great benefit with the c-stick, although no problems really either. You can only charge it if you press z while you use it. His down-b has one useful application with the c-stick. If you thunder diagnolly in the direction you want to fall, your momentum will change instantaneously as soon as you hit the thunder. Without the c-stick, you generally had to change your momentum and then thunder afterwards. Not huge, but still pretty helpful. [There's also a weird glitch where if you do change your direction backwards with the analog stick first, and then thunder, your momentum will change back to its original momentum.]

But the most useful aspect of changing his c-stick to special is for his quick attack. By doing so, you allow yourself an incredibly large increase in mobility with pikachu's QAC. It's hard to describe how much this increases your mobility without practicing and trying it for yourself, but it does take practice to pull out the potential of QAing using the c-stick. Here's a basic overview anyway. Since pikachu's normal QA requires that you push up on the analog stick and then input the direction you want to go, moving about becomes a slightly more arduous task, let alone doing a second quick attack where you would have to once again, push up on the analog stick and input the direction again. The c-stick allows you to pull off a QA and already have the direction you want to go instantaneously, making it incredibly easier to pull of multiple QA's (with QAC) that may have only been possible before with beyond human reflexes. Another useful tidbit, the standard QA with the C-stick is an short upwards QA, unless you're holding the the upwards direction. This is also helpful since pulling off short QA's in the heat of battle are difficult to do, and now doing a short QA up after a having previously done a QA is also a great deal easier.

Leafgreen responded with this:

I really didn't get this part. You say you could crouch and spam utilt or ftilt, even though when the cstick is set to smash this is exactly what happens anyway. Crouching with the control stick and pressing the cstick in a direction when it's set to smash will cause it to perform a tilt. It's ruined my attempts at dsmashing many times, often causing me to get punished for doing a dtilt, and has forced me to get out of the habit of CCing whenever I want to do a dsmash. I honestly never understood why people have trouble tilting, and performing a quick smash with the control stick and A is a much bigger problem for me. All you have to do is not push the control stick the whole way, and if the control stick was already pressed in the direction you want to tilt previously, even if it's pushed all the way, it will do tilts, not smashes, so doing them repeatedly isn't exactly hard either. Smashes, on the other hand, I find nigh impossible to perform with the A button without them charging, even if only briefly. Either that or I'll perform a tilt. Furthermore, saying that "it's easier to charge [a smash] the regular way" is completely irrelevant. Just because you have the cstick doesn't mean you need to use it, and if you want to charge a smash, you use the A button. Not a big deal. For those of us used to smashing with the cstick from melee, though, smash is infinitely more useful than attack, especially with pika's insane smashes. Due to crouching causing you to perform tilts, I think it has actually made it less useful.

Now... as for B-sticking... That's another case entirely. Some people will prefer smash, and others will prefer special, as they are two completely different areas that people may struggle with more or less in their game. Some people will have more trouble pulling off quick smashes and will miss being able to DI during aerials, while learning how to perform pika's B tricks with the control stick. Others will be able to get along without cstick smashes, and without the ability to DI all throughout their aerials, and will rely on the cstick to pull off pika's B tricks.
The only tilt I was able to do while crouching was a down tilt. I really don't see anything you can get out of a c-stick smash that you cant get out of a regular smash with practice. That's just not the case with c-stick b for pika or c-stick attack in general.
 

Spyckie

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 26, 2006
Messages
128
Location
Pittsburgh
Do people do sh upairs with up+a? I always accidentally double jump if I don't use the c-stick.
 

Scissors Sir

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 28, 2006
Messages
875
Location
Queens, NYC myspace.com/15453187
it all comes down to preference

For fairness I've tried both methods

The slight delay at the beginning of QA allows you to get ur direction(s) together

Don't take offense to this, but being predictable w/o the b-stick sounds like a personal problem. If you're not good at directing QA, I guess b-stick will work for you.

If you're comfortable with QA, you should have no problem using control stick.

The level of ease for each method is only measured by the players using them.
 

Kuronekokun

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 15, 2008
Messages
32
Location
USA, MN
I've been messing around with both styles, and here's what I think:

c-stick smash - Nice for Fair-> Dsmash, I find it a bit hard to move the control stick back up to activate Up+B after being in a diagonal down direction when doing multiple Quick attack cancels in a row.

c-stick special - A bit awkward. I use mostly Y (some X) to jump, and if I want to do an aerial -> go back into QAC, I have to move my right fingers pretty quickly. (I also have tap jump turned off). Definitely nice for doing RAR Thunder to edge guard though. (not sure if "RAR" is right, but I think you know what I mean.)

Personally I use the control stick + B button to QAC, and I use the c-stick special for RAR Thunders off the edge.
 

Metzger

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 1, 2008
Messages
110
it all comes down to preference

For fairness I've tried both methods

The slight delay at the beginning of QA allows you to get ur direction(s) together

Don't take offense to this, but being predictable w/o the b-stick sounds like a personal problem. If you're not good at directing QA, I guess b-stick will work for you.

If you're comfortable with QA, you should have no problem using control stick.

The level of ease for each method is only measured by the players using them.
Remember though this is not just about QA directionals but QAC, which can have a lot of QAs that only hop in one direction. Landing consective one-hop QAs using the QAC can be pretty difficult using the B button.

Like I said earlier though, I think you just need to look at what you're more consistent at.

Someone else mentioned that they often accidentally double jump when SH with up directionals - remember that you can turn off tap jumping (jumping via hitting up on the control stick) to prevent this very thing.
 

PokemonTrainerLisa

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 25, 2005
Messages
192
Location
Charleston, WV
Someone else mentioned that they often accidentally double jump when SH with up directionals - remember that you can turn off tap jumping (jumping via hitting up on the control stick) to prevent this very thing.
Awesome! I didn't know I could turn that off. ^^

By the way, this might be a dumb question, but...what is RAR? I have no idea what that means.
 

PokemonTrainerLisa

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 25, 2005
Messages
192
Location
Charleston, WV
Not only do I use the control stick + A button for Smash attacks, but also, I always charge my Smash attacks. Most people don't see that coming, since half people use un-charged Smash attacks anyway, lol. XD

So yeah, I'm definitely gonna use the B-stick setup for the C-stick. Though, it'll take me a while to get used to using the C-stick in gamepaly, since I've never used it before.
 

Doctor T

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 3, 2007
Messages
229
Location
Abilene, Texas
I posted this in the other Pika topic:

Remapping the B-Stick gives you MUCH more than just helping with QAC. The people over in the Lucas boards have been making a lot of discoveries about this. I personally never really used the C-Stick in Melee (I was fast enough to do my smashes without it), so I've already started switching over. I understand that not everyone will want to do this, but it is CERTAINLY worth looking into. This gives some enormous benefits for many characters, Lucas being the one that gains the most from it.

The following videos give a detailed demonstration of Wavebouncing, a new Advanced Technique that is useful for almost all characters, and that pretty much requires the use of the B-Stick (it has been proven possible without it, but it is extremely difficult to do without, much less master). The first video shows the biggest example, and the others show each character's use of Wavebouncing. Not that you can necessarily believe everything he says, but this is a good demonstration all the same:

PK Fire example using Lucas
Character Demonstration Part 1
Character Demonstration Part 2

Watch these and experiment for yourselves before you decide on whether or not to B-Stick. Also keep in mind that this is just one of the benefits... many B attacks have directional influences that can be eased greatly by using the B-Stick, Pikachu's QAC is just an example. ;)
Maybe that helps some people realize the potential of the B-Stick. Not just for Pika's QAC and reverse thunder, but for many other characters' AT's as well. I know I for one will be using the C-Stick for specials.
 
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