Auto-facing your opponent needs to go

[Farowe]

As you all know ultimate introduced a small feature for ryu/ken in which they always face their opponent during 1v1s. While this is a nice nod to street fighter the fact that this feature isn’t optional is harmful for ryu/kens’ performance.

Now, i ain’t tallking about RAR as that is still simple to do despite this new mechanic; i am talking about consistency and this mechanic simply ruins it. During a cross-up or a close encounter there are moments in which it is simply difficult to see exactly where your opponent is facing or your oponent moves to your back as you were executing your input and you miss it; a failed shoryuken a stock your opponent could have loss at that moment.

Not to mention that on doubles this mechanic is disabled and so the players needs a different mindset regarding to positioning as turning around and reverse special becomes relevant again which further adds innecesary complexity to the character.

This is not street fighter, this is smash bros a much more faster paced and aerial game were cross-ups during neutral are common and decisive in giving or taking victory so this mechanic needs to go or atleast become optional.

And for all apologists of this new mechanic: learn to turn around and invert input specials fgs

 

[Swordmaster102]

Hey Farowe. As a Ryu main back in sm4sh, I can completely sympathize with what you are saying. As of now, I just find it limiting him as a character and at times because of the machanic not working correctly, inputs are easily missed. The absolute only benefit I see with the machanic is where you cross up your opponent with say a n-air or f-air, and you can land safely and start for say, down tilting. This is because it takes more time for the opponent to turn around and grab/attack before the down tilts will come out. Even though I don’t like it as of now, mainly because of the inconsistency in where the game fails to make you face your opponent at times, I do think that over the growth of the game many Ryu players will find it a good thing as they get used to it. A patch just needs to come out though that fixes some glitches with the machanic (making it more consistent), and as well making an option to turn it off entirely for the sake of players playing like from sm4sh.

 

[Farowe]

Hey Farowe. As a Ryu main back in sm4sh, I can completely sympathize with what you are saying. As of now, I just find it limiting him as a character and at times because of the machanic not working correctly, inputs are easily missed. The absolute only benefit I see with the machanic is where you cross up your opponent with say a n-air or f-air, and you can land safely and start for say, down tilting. This is because it takes more time for the opponent to turn around and grab/attack before the down tilts will come out. Even though I don’t like it as of now, mainly because of the inconsistency in where the game fails to make you face your opponent at times, I do think that over the growth of the game many Ryu players will find it a good thing as they get used to it. A patch just needs to come out though that fixes some glitches with the machanic (making it more consistent), and as well making an option to turn it off entirely for the sake of players playing like from sm4sh.

There are very few instances in which you would really need a frame perfect turn around as turn around can be buffered in almost all instances. Input specials on the other (specifically shoryuken) take around 5-15 frames for the player to input it in the control pad which is enough time for the opponent to change position messing up the resulting action (tatsu instead of shoryu) ruining the potential ko as the player could have reversed his shoryuken imediatelly after noticing the change of position but this is not posible as the game executes the tatsu instead leaving you wide open.

I really don’t think its a matter of preference there are close encounter in which is humanely impossible to notice the player is on our back and then proceed to input shoryuken, we normally input shoryuken then at the last moment we invert it; this is not posible with the current mechanics, on the other hand turning around can be buffered thus thats why i believe this mechanics makes ryu/ken objectively worse.

 

[Swordmaster102]

There are very few instances in which you would really need a frame perfect turn around as turn around can be buffered in almost all instances. Input specials on the other (specifically shoryuken) take around 5-15 frames for the player to input it in the control pad which is enough time for the opponent to change position messing up the resulting action (tatsu instead of shoryu) ruining the potential ko as the player could have reversed his shoryuken imediatelly after noticing the change of position but this is not posible as the game executes the tatsu instead leaving you wide open.

I really don’t think its a matter of preference there are close encounter in which is humanely impossible to notice the player is on our back and then proceed to input shoryuken, we normally input shoryuken then at the last moment we invert it; this is not posible with the current mechanics, on the other hand turning around can be buffered thus thats why i believe this mechanics makes ryu/ken objectively worse.

Ok. I see what you are saying.

 

[malicecrossrevolver]

no, we have to adjust.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Nah. It makes tech chasing a pure numbers game. Also cross-up pressure is super strong due to this.

Also the not being able to invert your input at the last moment is not because the auto face.

It is due to the input latency which is about 2 frames greater than Smash 4. The game just straight up responds more slowly to inputs.

 

[Farowe]

Nah. It makes tech chasing a pure numbers game. Also cross-up pressure is super strong due to this.

Also the not being able to invert your input at the last moment is not because the auto face.

It is due to the input latency which is about 2 frames greater than Smash 4. The game just straight up responds more slowly to inputs.

The nerfs given to nair drastically reduce the instances in which you can tech chase your opponent as ryu’s neutral game no longer revolves in chasing his opponent so while it indeed makes tech chasing brain dead easy this is not an enough advantage towards not having this mechanic at all.

Again, the mechanics make cross-up pressure brain dead but you could already buffer turn arounds, so with enough skill you could perform the same.

Inverting input is still possible so i never argued otherwise; what i am describing is an scenario in which you anticipate the way your opponent will be facing and proceed to execute the inputs to attack in that direction yet at the very last moments you notice your oponent changes direction then you invert the input; without auto-facing mechanics you will perform reverse shoryuken hitting the opponent; with auto-facing mechanics you will performa a tatsu making yourselve very punishable.

This has nothing to do with ultimate’s hard coded input lag, it is an inherent flaw with the auto-facing mechanics which no longer allow us to correct our inputs at the last moment so we now need to guess which direction we will be facing when crossing our enemy as reacting at the last moment is almost impossible given the 5-15 frames needed the execute the input in the gamepad thus making shoryuken inconsistent in a lot of scenarios which could have turned the tide of the battle. (Trust me, when you fight against quick fighters you really want that shoryuken to have a 100% hit chance since chances are your opponent will not give you another opportunity at taking the ko)

no, we have to adjust.

ryu, mid tier, hope you enjoy that sight; but hey, we adjusted didn’t we?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ryu was obsolete the moment Ken arrived so to be frank I truly do not care about his tier placement.

Just keeping it real.

And I am not seeing how the auto-face stops you from inputting a move in the opposite direction. If you input a reverse special it comes out, no? But if you are doing it on hard reaction the only think that would stop you is the input lag. Unless you are claiming the auto face overrides your input which does not seem to be the case from any play testing anyone in the discord has done.

But again, from how the game is programmed the ONLY thing that would screw up your reverse input is the latency programmed into the game itself. Because the game simply would not acknowledge that you reversed due to the latency, before you the shoryu came out.

And honestly...in what scenarios would you need to reverse shoryu? Utilt has a smaller SDI modifier. And doing two utilts is not optimal anyways. You want utilt to jab or utilt to cl.ftilt. So other than a hail mary shoryu, why is this relevant?

 

[Farowe]

Ryu was obsolete the moment Ken arrived so to be frank I truly do not care about his tier placement.

Just keeping it real.

And I am not seeing how the auto-face stops you from inputting a move in the opposite direction. If you input a reverse special it comes out, no? But if you are doing it on hard reaction the only think that would stop you is the input lag. Unless you are claiming the auto face overrides your input which does not seem to be the case from any play testing anyone in the discord has done.

But again, from how the game is programmed the ONLY thing that would screw up your reverse input is the latency programmed into the game itself. Because the game simply would not acknowledge that you reversed due to the latency, before you the shoryu came out.

And honestly...in what scenarios would you need to reverse shoryu? Utilt has a smaller SDI modifier. And doing two utilts is not optimal anyways. You want utilt to jab or utilt to cl.ftilt. So other than a hail mary shoryu, why is this relevant?

Again, i am not arguing about about inverting inputs as that is already possible (although more difficult with the new buffer) ; i am arguing about the fact that autofacing doesnt help with inputs at all when you are too close to the opponent since the game coding doesn’t consider the direction you were facing when you started to make the input rather it takes the direction ryu/ken is facing at the very same frame you finish the input which is really problematic.

In what scenarios is inverting inputs important?

FGS have you ever even landed (with enough momentum) a dair, sour spot fair, falling uair or an uptilt in which your opponent agressively smash di towards you? These are all scenarios in which your opponent is literally above you and jump+shoryuken would take the stock.

As matter of fact, high level play with ryu relies a lot on jump+shoryuken as opponents scarcely give you a chance to perform a full kill setup so taking stocks with ryu is an scenario of blink and you will miss it.

The thing is that since executing the input requieres 5-15 frames the human thing to do is to start executing the input at the moment of jumping (or even before) so we naturally do shoryuken at the same direction we were facing and a couple of frames after we proceed to invert it if needed. Now with the current mechanics we have to guess were we are gonna be facing since again, the game doesnt consider which direction you were facing when input started but rather when input finished so if you guess wrong you will execute a tatsu instead of shoryu.

Since Ryu’s shoryuken has a specific sweetspot we can’t afford to input shoryuken at the last moment, we have to anticipate so we have enough timing to hit the sweetspot thus we would need to guess now since auto-turning around is frame 1 and the buffer is bs.

All in all between this new mechanic and the new buffer ryu has really suffered a lot so whoever plays with him is forced to adopt a more simple and even campy neutral rather than the more interesting agressive neutral since landing a kill move would be much more inconsistent and punishable than ever. Good luck ranking high with that.

 

[Emblem Lord]

There is no high level play of Ryu in this game right now.

You seem set in your explanation right now. Even though your explanation actually supports what I am saying. The auto-face does not matter as long as you can react in time. But the input delay makes that impossible. And again Ryu now has buttons that give you the placement you need.

And even IF your explanation is right. The solution is the same.

Drop the character OR just deal with it.

Because the auto-face is not going anywhere.

 

[Farowe]

There is no high level play of Ryu in this game right now.

You seem set in your explanation right now. Even though your explanation actually supports what I am saying. The auto-face does not matter as long as you can react in time. But the input delay makes that impossible. And again Ryu now has buttons that give you the placement you need.

And even IF your explanation is right. The solution is the same.

Drop the character OR just deal with it.

Because the auto-face is not going anywhere.

Well yeah, at the end of the day this gimmick will stay without even making it toggleable i just wanted to point out the problems that this new mechanic introduced but still, you are right, we either drop the character or adapt.

From all this topic i want to point put that ryu’s neutral will definitely change; is it for worse? I don’t really know, it all depends on how exploitable aerial cancels and tilt out dash will be.

I won’t drop ryu, at worst i could see myself switching to ken as their play still is still ton of fun.

Going onto forward, i realistically believe that the developers need to make changes into the buffer and the inherent input delay which, you will all agree with me, are the bigger causes of ryu/ken’s overall lack of consistency but that is for another topic.

 

[Shieldlesscap]

I'd like to point out that spamming Down Tilt is a ledge trap that covers all options except for jumping because of this mechanic. In addition, Dash Dancing is really good with the autoturnaround.

I think the autoturnaround is actually really good for Ryu and Ken, the only issue is that it seems to mess with input Tatsu while running, but you can fix this by delaying your Tatsu or using a button instead, so...

 

[Mistah777]

As you all know ultimate introduced a small feature for ryu/ken in which they always face their opponent during 1v1s. While this is a nice nod to street fighter the fact that this feature isn’t optional is harmful for ryu/kens’ performance.

Now, i ain’t tallking about RAR as that is still simple to do despite this new mechanic; i am talking about consistency and this mechanic simply ruins it. During a cross-up or a close encounter there are moments in which it is simply difficult to see exactly where your opponent is facing or your oponent moves to your back as you were executing your input and you miss it; a failed shoryuken a stock your opponent could have loss at that moment.

Not to mention that on doubles this mechanic is disabled and so the players needs a different mindset regarding to positioning as turning around and reverse special becomes relevant again which further adds innecesary complexity to the character.

This is not street fighter, this is smash bros a much more faster paced and aerial game were cross-ups during neutral are common and decisive in giving or taking victory so this mechanic needs to go or atleast become optional.

And for all apologists of this new mechanic: learn to turn around and invert input specials fgs

You can still RAR, cross ups are better, it’s not a problem except for people stuck in Sm4sh mentality
Suck it up and adapt