As a casual...

[ICANTCOUNT123456]

NOTE, THIS IS NOT MEANT TO BE OFFENSIVE IN ANY WAY.

I am, in fact, a casual player. I play with Items, and play on any stage I want to. I'm not a gainst tourney players, but i just want to know one thing...

I understand not playing with items and stages. You can turn any items off, and use any stage you want. Thats how the game was meant to be played, however you want. But, i don't understand tourney players NEED for glitches, i mean, in other games, if someone finds a glitch, players will get angry at the developers, because they didn't test the game properly. But in the smash series, Tourney players try TO FIND as much glitches as possible, WHY? i don't understand? is there something im missing here?

 

[iron blade]

They give you an advantage to win. I don't use them though.

 

[Tachita]

Because doing glitches, such as wavedashing, requiers a lot more skill than doing a tech, and in the competitive scene people use their skill to win, thats also why they don't play with items or in cool stages like Wario Ware

 

[SeriousWB]

Oh for god's sake, IM mostly a casual Smash player and I'm getting sick of these threads.

 

[NintendoTogepi]

I think the glitch thing is stupid too.

Why do you need to use glitches to win?

The items thing is okay (heh, I'll probably turn them off) and so is the stage thing I guess....but the need of glitches to win?

 

[DeuceBlade]

They play for money, & prizes. That usually makes you want to do anything thats possible to win.

 

[-Knux-]

Guess what? I don't use wavedashing, and I win in Melee. My friends don't use the so called "glitches" and we still have fun.

And quit calling them glitches. It's getting stupid seeing people whine about advanced techinques being glitches. If you don't understand, don't ask. If you don't like them, don't use them or play people who do. Get over it.

 

[Ageman20XX]

As much as I try to stay out of these topics, I kinda feel the same way. I fail to understand how exploiting a glitch makes you a better player. Just because it takes "skill" to replicate a glitch doesn't mean that you're better at the game - it means the opposite. It means that instead of using the tools, abilities, items, and stages that are given to you, you instead resort to - what I feel is - cheating.

If there was a glitch in Pokemon that gave you an obvious advantage (let's say a combination of things that gave you an instant KO) it would not be tolerated in not only tournament play - but pretty much any match. Why is Smash so different?

-Age

EDIT:

And quit calling them glitches. It's getting stupid seeing people whine about advanced techinques being glitches. If you don't understand, don't ask. If you don't like them, don't use them or play people who do. Get over it.

I'm pretty sure he's not talking about so-called advanced techs. Things like wavedashing (if I understand it correctly) is clearly a glitch and I'm pretty sure the topic creator meant glitches.

 

[SomeRandomGuy]

They need glitches to win. J/K (or am I...)

 

[Jael Irish]

I don't really even consider them glitches but techniques used in game play. If you look at everything as a glitch it makes it sound so bad. As for WHY we use our "Techniques", same as listed above, To Win. Playing against friends is one thing, but paying for a tournament is completely different.

 

[Nuvia]

in b4 wavedashing/l-canceling aren't glitches

I've honestly never bothered with that stuff because I see no need for it.

 

[DeuceBlade]

They need glitches to win. J/K (or am I...)

You are correct lol.

 

[Hellbeing]

... these discussions are getting really annoying and are just copies of eachother, i swear i saw at least 4 other threads the exact same as this one

 

[Zjiin]

I wouldn't say competitive players use glitches, it's more like they exploit the system.

If a casual player likes to shoot missles a lot and finds out if he does that as he is landing, that he can shoot even faster, does that mean he plays unfair?

Competitive players are just those of us who spent a little more time with the game and learned "short cuts" to doing what casual players do, but better. You think everyday players wouldn't wavedash if it was very simple to do for beginners? Of course they would. Some people just get defensive when they see people doing things they can't do, by making fun of it, instead of just learning it.

 

[Papapaint]

As much as I try to stay out of these topics, I kinda feel the same way. I fail to understand how exploiting a glitch makes you a better player.

It doesn't. Using available tools to your advantage makes you a better player.

Just because it takes "skill" to replicate a glitch doesn't mean that you're better at the game - it means the opposite. It means that instead of using the tools, abilities, items, and stages that are given to you, you instead resort to - what I feel is - cheating.

The concept of "cheating" only applies if it were to give one player a grossly unfair advantage over the others. These tools are available for everyone to use.

If there was a glitch in Pokemon that gave you an obvious advantage (let's say a combination of things that gave you an instant KO) it would not be tolerated in not only tournament play - but pretty much any match. Why is Smash so different?

Differences:
1. Wavedashing does not give you an automatic KO, or any noticeable advantage on its own.
2. L-Cancelling does not give you an automatic KO, or any noticeable advantage on its own.
3. Dash Dancing does not give you an automatic KO, or any noticeable advantage on its own.
4. Pivoting does not give you an automatic KO, or any noticeable advantage on its own.
5. Sheild Grabbing does not give you an automatic KO, or any noticeable advantage on its own.
6. Move-Cancelling does not give you an automatic KO, or any noticeable advantage on its own.

With the techniques comes an understanding, and without training and building up that understanding of the game, they're no more or less useful than turning left. These "glitches" (some are, some aren't) are merely available tools. The idea that they're instant-wins is ignorance.

I'm pretty sure he's not talking about so-called advanced techs. Things like wavedashing (if I understand it correctly) is clearly a glitch and I'm pretty sure the topic creator meant glitches.

My point stands whether they're glitches or not, which should, in my opinion, not matter at all.

Any questions?

 

[HeroXL]

You guys please....its not that we need them to win. Thats so ridiculous it makes me think that you just say it to get competitive smashers angry. Every competetive smasher can win without them but when everyone is playing on that same level and a different way of fighting (thats all it really is!!) is discovered that lets the player win against those players that fight on a different level then why wouldn't he take it? Now all the other players see this happening and they either choose to change their fighting style or not. As time went on the gap between these players grew bigger as more chose to stay with their fighting style and more chose to change it. Eventually, the players were completely divided and it was as if they were both from different planets. So, they started creating threads like this to try to understand what the other is thinking for choosing to play the way they do. Glitches or not, ment to to be in the game or not, they are there and some will use them while others wont. Just know that there are going to be huge differences between the people who do use them and the ones who don't. It has nothing to do with skill, I have no doubt that many of the casual players could learn AT's and use them well.

 

[brawl1994]

we do anything to win, except cheating

 

[ShortAssassin]

It doesn't. Using available tools to your advantage makes you a better player.



The concept of "cheating" only applies if it were to give one player a grossly unfair advantage over the others. These tools are available for everyone to use.



Differences:
1. Wavedashing does not give you an automatic KO, or any noticeable advantage on its own.
2. L-Cancelling does not give you an automatic KO, or any noticeable advantage on its own.
3. Dash Dancing does not give you an automatic KO, or any noticeable advantage on its own.
4. Pivoting does not give you an automatic KO, or any noticeable advantage on its own.
5. Sheild Grabbing does not give you an automatic KO, or any noticeable advantage on its own.
6. Move-Cancelling does not give you an automatic KO, or any noticeable advantage on its own.

With the techniques comes an understanding, and without training and building up that understanding of the game, they're no more or less useful than turning left. These "glitches" (some are, some aren't) are merely available tools. The idea that they're instant-wins is ignorance.



My point stands whether they're glitches or not, which should, in my opinion, not matter at all.

Any questions?

Well said.

Thread over?

 

[Smooth Criminal]

It doesn't. Using available tools to your advantage makes you a better player.



The concept of "cheating" only applies if it were to give one player a grossly unfair advantage over the others. These tools are available for everyone to use.



Differences:
1. Wavedashing does not give you an automatic KO, or any noticeable advantage on its own.
2. L-Cancelling does not give you an automatic KO, or any noticeable advantage on its own.
3. Dash Dancing does not give you an automatic KO, or any noticeable advantage on its own.
4. Pivoting does not give you an automatic KO, or any noticeable advantage on its own.
5. Sheild Grabbing does not give you an automatic KO, or any noticeable advantage on its own.
6. Move-Cancelling does not give you an automatic KO, or any noticeable advantage on its own.

With the techniques comes an understanding, and without training and building up that understanding of the game, they're no more or less useful than turning left. These "glitches" (some are, some aren't) are merely available tools. The idea that they're instant-wins is ignorance.



My point stands whether they're glitches or not, which should, in my opinion, not matter at all.

Any questions?

I'm with the Short Assassin.

Thread over. Requesting lock.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Metalknux]

For the last time, wavedashing is not a glitch. If someone crashes into the ground while they still have momentum, they will slide. It's common sense. Just because pros start spamming it doesn't automatically make it a glitch. The same thing with Fox/Falco's Up and B. If you crash into the ground, you bounce in that direction. If I decided to use that as a primary from of movement, it doesn't just become a glitch.

 

[Ageman20XX]

I'm with the Short Assassin.

Thread over. Requesting lock.

Smooth Criminal

Did you even read the post they were quoting?

-Age

 

[ShortAssassin]

Did you even read the post they were quoting?

-Age

He quoted the same quote I quoted...

 

[Chaosblade77]

It's these type of threads that make all of us casuals look bad

 

[kitsuneboy_geoff]

OP, let me tell you this right now. I'm a casual player as well (although probably better player than most casuals) but I can accept the pro way of playing.

And guess what? Even when I play against pros with items on, on the funky stages, they're still awesome players, and many of them'll beat be 70% of the time. There's nothing wrong with a pro method of playing, it doesn't make them any less good of a Smash player. (Well, for the most part. They tend to suicide with items and kill themselves on Big Blue a lot more than most of the casuals I know ~.^ )

Pro players, please don't judge us casuals by these sorts of threads.

 

[Shuma]

Who cares? with Wii-Fi and Updates the Smash team could just destroy the glitches once the game is released. If you're so worried 'bout it.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Did you even read the post they were quoting?

-Age

Nope. Not at all. No digo el inglés and all that.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Jackal478]

Okay,

They use them because everybody else does, and Adv. Tech. users have an advantage most of the time. So people use te same methods to equal out everyone.

and Wavedashing is not a glitch. It wasn't meant to be in the game, but its not a glitch. Wavedashing is what we like to call an Exploit, but you can look into that some other time, this isn't a WD thead.

 

[SmashBro99]

They play for money, & prizes. That usually makes you want to do anything thats possible to win.

That right there.

 

[Ageman20XX]

Nope. Not at all. No digo el inglés and all that.
Smooth Criminal

Here, let me help you, Smooth. Requesting a lock on a thread that you're not even taking the time to read kinda makes you a bit ignorant, no?

------------------

It doesn't. Using available tools to your advantage makes you a better player.

Define "available tools". In Pokemon Gold & Silver, if you deposited a Pokemon into your box and then tried to switch boxes, it would start saving. Turning the game off during that save ended up duplicating/cloning that Pokemon exactly (and any item attached). That is clearly a glitch and I sincerely doubt Nintendo wanted that to be available to players.

The concept of "cheating" only applies if it were to give one player a grossly unfair advantage over the others. These tools are available for everyone to use.

So, given my example above, you're saying just because something is readily available in the game means it's not a glitch or not cheating? Cloning Pokemon by that method (especially rare ones like the legendaries) is clearly cheating regardless of whether or not it's available for everyone to use.
I think you (as well as many others, no offense) are confused on what "tools" are. If something is purposefully put into the game for you to use, that's a tool. If you found something in a game that the developers did not intend to be there, that's an exploit. Snaking in Mario Kart (no matter how broken it is or isn't) is a tool because it's there on purpose. Wavedashing, for example, was not.

Differences:
1. Wavedashing does not give you an automatic KO, or any noticeable advantage on its own.
2. L-Cancelling does not give you an automatic KO, or any noticeable advantage on its own.
3. Dash Dancing does not give you an automatic KO, or any noticeable advantage on its own.
4. Pivoting does not give you an automatic KO, or any noticeable advantage on its own.
5. Sheild Grabbing does not give you an automatic KO, or any noticeable advantage on its own.
6. Move-Cancelling does not give you an automatic KO, or any noticeable advantage on its own.

I think you missed the point of my example. I wasn't saying that any of the glitches KOed anyone (I'm not ignorant) - I guess it went completely over your head - my bad. I was comparing it to the fact that in other games any glitch is frowned upon. Yet, in Smash, it seems to be some kind of bragging right and allowed.

With the techniques comes an understanding, and without training and building up that understanding of the game, they're no more or less useful than turning left. These "glitches" (some are, some aren't) are merely available tools. The idea that they're instant-wins is ignorance.

Again, I never said they were instant wins or even implied it - you misunderstood my comparison - which kind of implies your ignorance, not mine. Please make sure you understand before insulting someone.

My point stands whether they're glitches or not, which should, in my opinion, not matter at all.

Any questions?

Yes, now that I've explained a post that I felt was fairly easy to understand, I'd hope people will actually read before "requesting lock" like idiots. It's a discussion - if you don't wanna be part of it leave. And if you wanna complain about topics, why not complain about one of the other 100 flooding the forum? Or are you just selectively ignorant?

-Age

EDIT : I just want to make it extremely clear that I'm not looking to argue, fight or make enemies. I just wanted to contribute to the discussion and defend the point of view for new and/or casual players. Unfortunately on this board it seems to be extremely easy to make enemies - even though most of the time it's the fault of the people who comment without actually reading what they're replying to. But yes, I don't want to make enemies and I just want to have the same right to speak that all of the elitists here feel they have.

 

[OrlanduEX]

*sigh*

Why do people post these threads without lurking? It doesn't matter that you don't "mean" to offend. You offend everyone with your ignorance when there are plenty of threads about this already.

First of all, Advanced Techniques are not glitches. You offend everyone when you refer to them as such. Go read up some threads on the ATs in Melee and realize that they were all programmed into the game. Even wavedashing is not a glitch, just a manipulation of the games' mechanics.

Second of all, competitive Smashers don't NEED ATs to win. ATs simply allow the game to be played at a higher level of competition and make the gameplay deeper.
If you hadn't realized, Smash isn't much more than spamming smash attacks without them. While this is fun, it is not suitable for high level competitive play.
Some of us find competition MORE fun.

Now go lurk moar before posting another thread like this.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

We don't look for glitches, we look for depth. Since sakurai screwed up making Brawl a deep game on purpose, we can only hope that he did it on accident, mostly in the form of exploitations of the physics and/or glitches. There's nothing wrong with using a glitch as long as it adds to the gameplay/depth.

 

[Itakio]

The reason as to why we use "glitches" to win is because, when money is on the line, we seek every advantage possible to gain. And why shouldn't we? Sure, you can come to the tournament and play the game how it was "meant to be played," but you will lose out to everyone else who is pushing the game to it's limits.

Also, glitches give games depth. They often require a significant amount of dexterity and skill, though why it makes us want to play more is something I don't know.

 

[OrlanduEX]

Define "available tools". In Pokemon Gold & Silver, if you deposited a Pokemon into your box and then tried to switch boxes, it would start saving. Turning the game off during that save ended up duplicating/cloning that Pokemon exactly (and any item attached). That is clearly a glitch and I sincerely doubt Nintendo wanted that to be available to players.

Lurk the f*** moar. Advanced Techniques are not cheating/glitches.
Short Hop, fast fall, directional influence, edgehogging, short hop laser, shine spiking, ken combos, desync'd Ice Climbers, and ALL the other techniques were PROGRAMMED INTO THE F***ING GAME.

Learn some more about the game before posting please.

 

[mezbomber]

I suggest that we no longer label smashers as casual or competitive because the majority of people are gonna lie somewhere in between. I think it's more accurate to separate smashers as those who play for money and those who don't. After all, isn't there such a thing as casual competition? I can play casually with friends, but by definition it's still a competition and, obviously, it's fun to win. However, I don't think anyone can casually play for money. Also, I think wavedashing is cool and ups the intensity of a battle (when used appropriately)...whether you call it a glitch or not is somewhat irrelevant. But, for instance, when I play Falco dittos with my friend, it's all about hitting every tech and L-cancel moreso than wavedashing. ATs are cool but their utility sometimes become subjective to the match-ups you're playing.


What I question more than anything is the use of items. I wish some of the non-overpowered items could be more generally accepted in tournament play, rather than ban all items.

actually, I'm gonna shut up right now because I don't smash for money. I don't like the mentality of smashing for money, so I'm not going to make it any of my business. Carry on everyone...smash as you like. And please don't mind my opinions, they are not meant to be taken personally.

 

[Lauf]

http://www.sirlin.net/archive/playing-to-win-part-1/
OP can you read this please
i know you want to contribute but please be respectful, by not just calling them glitches and learn what the AT are
By your pokemon gold and silver glitch/exploit, yes the creators may not have intended for it to be in the game, but people would still use them.

 

[Smash-Master9009]

i clearly understand the whole no items and only certain stage rules, me and my friends have tournements like that, but we also have normal matches too. i think glitches and techs are little tricks that players know, and by using them its kind of a way to show your superiority over the noob players, and its not "cheap" or "stupid" because it does take practice and skill.

 

[OrlanduEX]

I suggest that we no longer label smashers as casual or competitive because the majority of people are gonna lie somewhere in between. I think it's more accurate to separate smashers as those who play for money and those who don't. After all, isn't there such a thing as casual competition? I can play casually with friends, but by definition it's still a competition and, obviously, it's fun to win. However, I don't think anyone can casually play for money. Also, I think wavedashing is cool and ups the intensity of a battle (when used appropriately)...whether you call it a glitch or not is somewhat irrelevant. But, for instance, when I play Falco dittos with my friend, it's all about hitting
every tech and L-cancel moreso than wavedashing. ATs are cool but their utility sometimes
become subjective to the match-ups you're playing.

The names casual and competitive have their inaccuracies, but we've been using them for years and they generally mean what they say.
Casual = prioritizes fun over competition
Competitive = plays to win, doesn't care how games was "meant" to be played, doesn't live by honor codes that discourage "cheap" moves/strategies

What I question more than anything is the use of items. I wish some of the non-overpowered items could be more generally accepted in tournament play, rather than ban all items.

Items, while suitable for casual play, do not foster competition. They actually impair it as they introduce a great amount of unnecessary randomness.

actually, I'm gonna shut up right now because I don't smash for money. I don't like the mentality of smashing for money, so I'm not going to make it any of my business. Carry on everyone...smash as you like. And please don't mind my opinions, they are not meant to be taken personally.

Way to waste everyone's time....

 

[Libomasus]

What people need to understand is that even if they were glitches, or the developer never intended for us to use them, they all add to the game. Glitches or not, they don't break the game like cloning a pokemon does.

I don't get why people feel so offended by "Glitches" anyways. As someone who has been in videogame development before, games aren't all-appreciable nor do the creators always have a clear set of rules in mind when creating them. Often times the competitive community will influence and mold fighting games, we've been doing it for a long time too. I mean, there have been Melee tournaments going on for 6 years now. If something is broken it gets banned, but they aren't broken, proven by years of experience.

Besides, I can count the number of AT's that are actually glitches on my hands. Even then, half of them are banned and aren't used in competitive play.

 

[Metalknux]

For the last time, wavedashing is not a glitch. If someone crashes into the ground while they still have momentum, they will slide. It's common sense. Just because pros start spamming it doesn't automatically make it a glitch. The same thing with Fox/Falco's Up and B. If you crash into the ground, you bounce in that direction. If I decided to use that as a primary from of movement, it doesn't just become a glitch.

This .

 

[Papapaint]

Define "available tools". In Pokemon Gold & Silver, if you deposited a Pokemon into your box and then tried to switch boxes, it would start saving. Turning the game off during that save ended up duplicating/cloning that Pokemon exactly (and any item attached). That is clearly a glitch and I sincerely doubt Nintendo wanted that to be available to players.

I'm sorry, that's just not even comparable. Using advanced techniques--whether they're glitches or not--changes a few aspects of the game, like available movement, tactical decision, etc. It's not an entire revamping of how the game works.

So, given my example above, you're saying just because something is readily available in the game means it's not a glitch or not cheating? Cloning Pokemon by that method (especially rare ones like the legendaries) is clearly cheating regardless of whether or not it's available for everyone to use.

Because it gives one person a gross advantage. It's disgusting to think that one person can EV train their legendary and copy it endlessly and then take it to a tournament. That's a gross advantage. Sliding because momentum brought you to the ground in a fighting game is not.

I think you (as well as many others, no offense) are confused on what "tools" are. If something is purposefully put into the game for you to use, that's a tool. If you found something in a game that the developers did not intend to be there, that's an exploit. Snaking in Mario Kart (no matter how broken it is or isn't) is a tool because it's there on purpose. Wavedashing, for example, was not.

Offense taken. You're insulting me.

No offense, but you're flat wrong. Only one Advanced Technique can be argued as a glitch--and that's wavedashing. Everything else is intentionally programmed.

I think you missed the point of my example. I wasn't saying that any of the glitches KOed anyone (I'm not ignorant) - I guess it went completely over your head - my bad. I was comparing it to the fact that in other games any glitch is frowned upon. Yet, in Smash, it seems to be some kind of bragging right and allowed.

"(let's say a combination of things that gave you an instant KO)"

Okay. Let's pretend you didn't say that for a second...

Define "glitch." I define it as an unintended effect of a code. Seeing as how everything but Wavedashing is either intended or banned...

Again, I never said they were instant wins or even implied it - you misunderstood my comparison - which kind of implies your ignorance, not mine. Please make sure you understand before insulting someone.

No, you just directly compared it to a situation with an instant win.

Yes, now that I've explained a post that I felt was fairly easy to understand, I'd hope people will actually read before "requesting lock" like idiots. It's a discussion - if you don't wanna be part of it leave. And if you wanna complain about topics, why not complain about one of the other 100 flooding the forum? Or are you just selectively ignorant?

"Selectively ignorant," to me, implies someone who calls advanced techniques glitches without doing research. GG.

EDIT : I just want to make it extremely clear that I'm not looking to argue, fight or make enemies. I just wanted to contribute to the discussion and defend the point of view for new and/or casual players. Unfortunately on this board it seems to be extremely easy to make enemies - even though most of the time it's the fault of the people who comment without actually reading what they're replying to. But yes, I don't want to make enemies and I just want to have the same right to speak that all of the elitists here feel they have.

"Selectively Ignorant" is an interesting choice of words for someone not looking to argue. Because to me... them's... them's fightin words.