Official Art management- Shulk moveset analysis (Current move: D-throw)

[Masonomace]

Did you get hit by the tree? If not, I'm assuming you either did a retreating Nair, the tree only came in contact with the disjointed hitbox, or Nair flat out beats the Tree in terms of priority.

Nah I just straight up had Hyper Smash Shulk contest the tree head-on with FF N-air using the up-close Blade hitbox. So N-air straight up beats tree's priority. And if Hyper Smash N-air can do it with a measly 2.8%, then I imagine Back Slash can easily do it too.

In my case of Backslash beating out a full charged Aura Sphere when the Lucario was past 100%, Backslash cancelled the Aura Sphere while still keeping Backslash's hitbox out. That probably happened because the Aura Sphere only touched Backslash's hitbox alone and not Shulk's hurtbox. I'm pretty sure that if the Aura Sphere touched both Backslash's hitbox and Shulk's hurtbox, it would still hit Shulk. Depends on how far away Lucario was to consider if both hitboxes would trade or not.

Yeah as long as Back Slash's hitbox staying disjointed away from Shulk's hurtbox hits the projectile first, Shulk's good. Y'know those times Shulk is falling down with Back Slash & literally back slashes a projectile with the the usual 10% up close hit? I'm sure that has better priority than the sourspot 9% from a distance. Because my testings for N-air just with the Vanilla damages 7% & 8% & Buster's 9.8% & 11.2% damages have quite a difference of priority surprisingly.

It's safe to say that Back Slash has a similar kind of priority like an aerial mentioned by @ erico9001 . So the 10% / 9% would definitely perform better than all of Shulk's aerials except for the 2nd sweetspot hits of U-air & D-air, & sweetspot B-air. And when we involve Monado art damage multipliers, Buster art makes Back Slash combatting projectiles ever better.
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EDIT: One last thing before I rate Back Slash. Lately whether I've played opponents on FG, playing my friends offline, or players from smashladder.com, I've come to appreciate using Back Slash for opponents who use their Forward directional roll to disengage away from me because their back is technically facing toward us after the invincibility wears off. This is very satisfying <3.

Patch 1.1.0 Back Slash art (Front hit)
Overall rating: 1/2
翔 / 疾 / 斬: 1/2
盾 / 撃:

Patch 1.1.0 Back Slash art (Back hit)
Overall rating: 1/2
翔 / 疾:
盾 / 撃: 1/2
斬:

---
The rating for the back hit of BS with the Buster art active seems like a stretch, but when you remember the move on-shield is safe on characters who have terrible friction can't punish you, damage on-hit can go from the front at the least dealing 12.6% to the most 14%, from the back dealing 18.2% with the sourspot Landing hitbox to the usual 22.4% with the sweetspot Startup or Falling hitbox can become safe on-hit at early percents, & the startup frame data getting buffed thus the move is all-around faster, it no longer feels that much of a stretch.

 

[Berserker.]

We're going to move on to Air Slash soon

Anyone have any final word on back scratch?

 

[erico9001]

Back Slash is hype when you land it

 

[Berserker.]

Alright. Air Slash discussion starts now

 

[Masonomace]

Air Slash
The move can induce great amounts of excitement when both hits connect favorably. This physical battle art also happens to have more than several applications because it's a reliable recovery and a kill option.

Overall rating: 1/2
Jump:1/2
Speed:
Shield:
Buster:1/2
Smash:

Rating qualifications:
-Recovery
-Applications
-Safety

RAS is also a term that stands for Reversed Air Slash.

Recovery
Basically, Jump and Speed increase their respective ratings for the recovery they excel in. Jump arts not only increase the vertical height to both hits of Air Slash, but also the drift speed in between the first and second hits. This varies on how much you decide to delay the second hit due to the Jump arts' increased fall speed giving a slightly mixed result recovering vertically and horizontally. Ultimately with a Jump art, you'll have a favorable result. For the Speed and Shield arts, their rating focuses on the great or less success of the horizontal drift speed because Speed and Shield do not affect the vertical height of Air Slash one bit. With the Speed art, your drift speed in between the first and second hit improves more than with the Jump art, so it's vital that you utilize this feature more. On the other hand, Shield reduces the drift speed traveled in between the first and second hit, so it's not very useful in comparison to Jump or Speed. Although, a little gain of drift speed will always be better than choosing not to drift at all.

Applications
Every Monado art helps better their respective rating except for Shield. Jump and Speed possess the ability to recover horizontally thanks to their drift speed increase and by delaying the second hit. Jump not only increases the vertical height but also the speed that Shulk travels while ascending upwards during the first hit. Buster's knockback decrease doesn't apply to the first hit because it has a set Base Weighted Knockback, so know that your attacks will still string into each other. Smash's increased knockback makes Air Slash a viable kill option especially if used off stage.

Air Slash by itself has its own uses. For instance, delaying the second hit while holding your joystick towards the ledge and inputting the Z button holds the beet result because getting hit beforehand means your Z input comes out as airdodge. Airdodge for Shulk finishes quicker than even F-air, making it the fastest and safest option inputted just in case your Air Slash is interrupted. Other helpful applications include snapping to the ledge with either the second hit within range to the "magnet zone", or by using an aerial and utilize the move's FAF aka IASA window to snap to the ledge immediately. F-air is best for this but all of Shulk's aerials can do this too including aidodge i think. . .? --- Another usage we can make out of Air Slash is by holding down on the joystick while the first hit rises upward to avoid grabbing the ledge. "Why do this when we can snap to the ledge?", because Air Slash done in this manner can edge-guard someone recovering for low or very low and launch them away and avoid grabbing the ledge with the second hit. This is especially useful with the Jump Speed and Smash arts due to their strong points. Also, Jump arts increasing the vertical height and hitting with the second hit means that you're that much higher off the ground, so you kill slightly earlier than with a vanilla Air Slash.

Safety
This point is mostly for those times you use Air Slash while recovering to the ledge and attacking the edge-guarding opponent within range. And I'm typing this to tell you NOT to do it often. If anything, it's better done sparingly to catch them by surprise of the move's range or when they slip up making a mistake. Speed Shield and Smash reduce damage and shield knockback so it's usually unwise commiting to hit one when they've readied their bubble shield and drop it to punish you. Meanwhile Jump Speed and Shield have their perks since getting punished and launched away doesn't mean much to Jump or Speed. But with Shield, you dont get launched as far but if it's at later percents then you must think to deactivate Shield as soon as you're hit and airdodge after the art's deactivation to remove Shield's air speed debuff and revert back to vanilla air speed. Smash art launched does fly farther so you may need to cycle to Jump or Speed. Buster art most of all gets love from this point thanks to the increased damage and shield knockback since it either ruins characters holding shield having bad friction, or the Air Slash's spacing is performed well.

Stages also get a mention in this point since wall stages don't give Shulk much safety, but using Air Slash on a stage with larger lip surfaces makes that range look even better and may get a reaction out of the player like, "man that range. ." or, "dat poke!" or something. This strategy relies on not over-extending the height above the ledge. Maximum safety using any applications is much preferred and essential to living longer, and know that one can just run off ledge and edge-guard with an aerial like B-air to stage spike you. For this case, reversing Air Slash and either snapping the ledge or holding the joystick down to use both hits in that situation requires your judgment and reading.

And remember, always think to tech the stage spike, and don't be too close to the wall or lip surface because then it becomes impossible to tech.

 

[Goesasu]

^amazing but missed one of the most important topics, Air slash as a ground frame 10 attack and as a combo extender.

 

[Masonomace]

^amazing but missed one of the most important topics, Air slash as a ground frame 10 attack and as a combo extender.

I also forgot to talk about how the Jump arts greatly increase the hitbox of the rising first hit, and the scrooging potential too.

I think inputting a grounded or airborne Air Slash and immediately holding your joystick towards a direction sliiiiiiiiiightly increases the hitbox range in front of Shulk, which might be further improved by the Jump and Speed arts. And I forgot to talk about traveling backwards with Air Slash.

Man, I'm slipping. . Frame 10 startup is lovely given that the character is Shulk.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

Air Slash is imo Shulk's best ledge trump option since it's guaranteed. A ledge trump AS will kill pretty early in both Vanilla and Smash

 

[Masonomace]

Air Slash is imo Shulk's best ledge trump option since it's guaranteed. A ledge trump AS will kill pretty early in both Vanilla and Smash

I'm not going to lie. I've never used Air Slash after a successful ledge trump, but is it viable? I mean if they don't get ledge trumped because they buffered a ledge input then owell, but if I do get the trump, then will we truly get enough frame advantage to RAS to their direction and seal their stock? Apologies for the questions btw.

And I would suggest Jump art for ledge trumping Air Slash since Shulk is traveling faster while ascending upward and you're scooping the opponent higher up too, which would lead to a slightly earlier kill option than vanilla Air Slash. However, a character may or may not string into the second hit so results may vary.

Oh, and actually I think I have ledge trumped Air Slash before and it was on Fox, but he flies farther and higher up than most characters, so my Air Slash whiffed him. I need to practice Air Slash ledge trumping.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

I'm not going to lie. I've never used Air Slash after a successful ledge trump, but is it viable? I mean if they don't get ledge trumped because they buffered a ledge input then owell, but if I do get the trump, then will we truly get enough frame advantage to RAS to their direction and seal their stock? Apologies for the questions btw.

And I would suggest Jump art for ledge trumping Air Slash since Shulk is traveling faster while ascending upward and you're scooping the opponent higher up too, which would lead to a slightly earlier kill option than vanilla Air Slash. However, a character may or may not string into the second hit so results may vary.

Oh, and actually I think I have ledge trumped Air Slash before and it was on Fox, but he flies farther and higher up than most characters, so my Air Slash whiffed him. I need to practice Air Slash ledge trumping.

If you do manage to get the ledge trump, reverse Air Slash is guaranteed if you grabbed the ledge very quickly after your opponent did and you input the drop down > Air Slash fast. If you do it too late, it's not guaranteed. Btw, I just tested and ledge trump > RAS is definitely possible on Fox

 

[erico9001]

So, if we are talking about regular air slash, this is probably a good thing to repost:

Ever curious what grounded opponents Air Slash works on (both hits)?

Note: The only things that change how high the opponent is hit by air slash are the rage effect, whether or not the opponent is crouching, whether or not the move is tipped, and the position he is in relation to you.
-The opponent's damage does not matter. They can be at 999% and it will work.
-Your Monado Art does not matter at all, except for Monado Jump.
-edit: staling does not matter
-edit: Oh, and DI affects it too.

I will be testing opponents who are standing on level ground.

Shulk at 0%, Air Slash does not work on:
Jigglypuff
Shield Shulk

Shulk at 0%, Jump Air Slash does not work on:
Bowser
Wario
Link
Marth
Ike
Robin
King Dedede
Charizard
Captain Falcon
Monado Jump Shulk
Monado Shield Shulk
Lucina
Mega Man

When rage makes normal air slash stop working:
(It's important you read these as your own percents, not the opponents' percents)

Luigi ~142%
Peach ~110%
Rosalina ~85%
G&W ~55%
Little Mac ~125%
Zelda ~97%
ZSS ~120%
Pit ~149%
Paulutena ~114%
Kirby ~56%
Meta Knight ~128%
Falco ~116%
Pikachu ~75%
Ness ~120%
Villager ~136%
Olimar ~84%
WFT ~139%
Smash Shulk ~140% (note, this is when YOU are at 140% and in any mode but Jump)
Dark Pit ~149%
Pac-Man ~126%

When rage makes Jump air slash stop working:
Jigglypuff ~110%

When rage makes normal air slash start working:
Shield Shulk ~86%

When rage makes Jump air slash start working:
Bowser ~89%
Wario ~57%
Link ~36%
Marth ~35%
Ike ~42%
Robin ~43%
King Dedede ~58%
Charizard ~47%
Captain Falcon ~52%
Monado Jump Shulk ~57%
Shield Shulk: never
Lucina ~35%
Mega Man ~99%

Notes:
Tipping makes the move go lower, meaning the percent at which it starts and stops working are both higher. I did these tests without tipping (although, I'm not fully sure I didn't tip some of the earliest tests). I also use the move as quick as possible; delaying the two hits makes Shulk go higher. Delaying, therefore, raises both the starting and ending percents. Delay the attack at higher percents and don't delay at lower percents.

This is still somewhat of a work in progress for that reason.

Ahh Air Slash. It is a great move. It is frame 10 (tied for 2nd fastest ATTACK with down tilt), about the same horizontal range as down tilt but with that huge vertical movement, nice damage.

You should really use this move when:
- In the air, in general. It's a nice move there. Can hit opponents above you, obiously, or scoop opponents up from below you. The scooping works better on light/slow falling characters than heavt/fast falling.
- On the ground, as a punish. ASOOS (out of shield) is really good, as well as RASOOS.
- On the ground, as a combo finisher. It is nice for combos, but it will be the end of the combo.
- On the ground, as a surprise attack, maybe. I say maybe, because if you miss, you are going to be punished hard.
- When you need to recover (durr). For maximum recovery distance, use when still spaced out from the edge, and drift between the two slashes.
Speaking of recovery:

I have completed the degrees of inclination for Shulk's recoveries! I've also reviewed it and fixed any math or recording errors. This time, higher degree = longer distance recovered. Umm, these values cannot be exact, due to using platforms uniformly spaced apart. The platforms are pretty close together, so there is not going to be much difference. However, monado jump and decisive jump probably do not have the exact same drift angle, even though it reads like they do.

Form of recovery|Neutral fall angle|Monado Jump's angle|Decisive Jump's angle|Hyper Jump's angle|Monado Speed's angle|Decisive Speed's angle|Hyper Speed's angle
Just drifting|–49.6°| –42°| –42°|–43.5°|–40°|–37.8|–35°
Drift with an air jump|–35.9°| –18°| –16.7°|–15.4°|–25.4°|–23°|–23°
Drift then Air Slash|–34°| –19.3°| –16.7 |–15.4°|–19.3°|–19°|–14°
Drift then Advancing Air Slash|–29.9°| –23°| –21.8°|–20.6°|–19.3°|–18°|–16.7°
Drift then Mighty Air Slash| –34°|–24.2°| –15.4°|–12.7°|–20.6°|–18°|–14°
Drift, air jump, and Air Slash| –11.3°|+14°| +18°| +18°|+1.4°|+2.9°| +2.9°
Drift, air jump, and Advancing Air Slash|–5.7°| +9.9°| +12.7°|+12.7°| +1.4°|+1.4°| –1.4°
Drift, air jump, and Mighty Air Slash| –12.7°|+16.6°| +18°|+21.8°|0°| 0°| 0°

Discussion:
- As Mace wrote, the most efficient way to recover with mighty air slash - for both vertical and horizontal length - is to use both strikes very quickly. Given this, I retested the mighty air slashes and updated the tables with the information.

Spoiler: custom Speed arts have noticeable, significant air speed differences

- You'll notice that decisive speed and hyper speed make quite the difference with angle of inclination. This is just due to the higher speed each of them have. With the earlier tests of decisive speed, this air speed difference did not appear as strongly, because as Mace has shown me, Decisive Speed actually has lower jump height than regular speed

Spoiler: Mighty Air Slash is now better for recovery than previously thought. Quite significant differences with Jump

- Now that we know the true way to maximize recovery with mighty air slash, it has shown to be better in all fields, giving it a more significant lead over regular air slash while in Monado Jump. It also happens to beat advancing air slash when it comes to Hyper Speed.

Spoiler: Mighty Air Slash does improve recovery distance if you are in regular/hyper arts and switch to it

-If using regular arts or Hyper arts, it does not matter much that mighty air slash has the least total distance traveled other than jump arts and Hyper Speed. We always just switch to Jump if we need the extra recovery, anyways. Looking at it like that, mighty air slash does have the best recovery IF you make sure to save Monado Jump for when you need it!

Spoiler: Decisive Arts + Mighty Air Slash: Not good

-Mighty Air Slash is not an overall optimal choice to pair with decisive arts. It only benefits recovery if you happen to be in Monado Jump. You've cut your recovery on all arts other than that one. This means you're move vulnerable in Smash, Buster, Speed, and especially Shield. Decisive Shield is an amazing benefit to using decisive arts, but with mighty air slash, you might as well be dead if you end up off-stage!

Spoiler: Mighty Air Slash + Hyper arts = maybe good

-Mighty Air Slash does appear to help out Hyper Arts. Hyper Jump + MAS has insane height and rising speed. What these angles do not show is the vertical height helps out Hyper Speed, which often finds it hard to edgeguard. Of course, mighty air slash has an easy to intercept path. However, its speed can make up for it. Also, make sure to take advantage of any stage lips. I would not recommend mighty air slash on a stage like duck hunt, which does not have one.

Spoiler: Advancing Air Slash + Hyper Arts = maybe not as great, but maybe ok

-Advancing Air Slash has comparatively worse recovery in hyper arts. Arts do not last long, and can be deactivated to switch to Speed or Jump at any time. Hyper Shield could benefit, but is so resistant to knockback that it probably won't need it. If it did, again, Jump or Speed. However, recovery with advancing air slash and hyper speed is pretty bad, as you can actually see from the degrees on the chart. It travels a decent distance horizontally, like mighty air slash does vertically, but lacks the vertical height to make the difference. You lose some edgeguarding capabilities. For instance, you cannot run off the edge and use an immediate Dair, for you will not make it back. You also cannot detach from the ledge and use Bair. Still, Advancing Air Slash has its attacking capabilities, as well as the potential to be able to save Monado Jump for a time it is needed.

Spoiler: Hyper Jump hurts drifts between first and second strikes of AS/AAS

-Hyper Jump has pretty much the same recoveries as Decisive jump with advancing and regular air slash, because the fall speed hurts the drifting you typically do between the first and second strike. In fact, hyper jump with regular air slash kind of resembles the shape of mighty air slash.

Spoiler: You can see the effect Hyper Speed's super low jump height has on recovery

-You'll notice that Hyper Speed's value for drifting + air jump is the same as Decisive Speed's value there. The fact that Hyper Speed does have a higher angle than Decisive Speed when just drifting shows the effect of how small Hyper Speed's air jump is.

Spoiler: Hyper Speed + Regular Air Slash = Amazing drift speeds between AS slashes

-Regular Air Slash with hyper speed has a very long drift distance between the first and second strike. This is why there is such a difference between decisive speed and hyper speed, while there is no such difference between regular speed and decisive speed.

Spoiler: As you get the stronger Jump arts, your recovery angle does decrease a little bit. Jumping alleviates that.

Indeed!

So... yep! Trigonometry is useful. Wish I could say the same about Calculus of Several Variables.
/

Actually, while on the topic of Air Slash:

----
Moving on, let's see, air slash can kill. So, frame 10 kill move. Yay to that.

Just can't really throw this out much. That's one of the huge reasons I prefer Advancing Air Slash.

Err if you need more recovery, monado jump air slash goes higher. According to mace, monado speed's air slash actually goes somewhat lower, but not as drastic of a difference as vanilla -> jump.

I'm not sure what else to say about the move. If we were to go into the custom up B's though... so much to talk about.

 

[Masonomace]

According to mace, monado speed's air slash actually goes somewhat lower, but not as drastic of a difference as vanilla -> jump.

Apologies for the Mace in the past, but I wanna clarify this as the Mace I'm currently in This Moment that Monado Speed does not affect the Air Slash variants until you start using Decisive Speed and Hyper Speed.

 

[Berserker.]

Air slash is also a good edgeguarding tool btw. You can easily outspace any recovering attempt or any aerial with its hideously long range. It's possible that you may even land an early kill with it even without Smash art activated

--

So um.... is that all for air slash?

 

[Masonomace]

So um.... is that all for air slash?

Perhaps. I bet some of us could talk about Advancing Air Slash to the max, but that probably won't be until after non-custom Shulk is fully analyzed.

Something that was or may have already been brought up before is when the vanilla, Speed, Shield, Buster, or Smash art Air Slash launches someone too high up due to a mixture of our Rage, their current percent, and the character. This causes our second hit to whiff, which should be solved by activating Jump art to reach them launched that high.

That's about it from me unless I recall something else besides that Air Slash project i'm thnking about.

 

[Virum]

Air Slash as a recovery move is solid enough. Good vertical distance, improved further in Monado Jump though unfortunately it doesn't snap to the ledge particularly well compared to most other recovery moves so often you either need to recover high or mix-up your spacing and timing of the second slash in order to avoid being easily edgeguarded. Despite it's large disjoint because Shulk's arms reach above him the move will often trade with dropzone aerials cause Shulk more often than not to just lose his stock right there.

Air Slash is probably Shulk's all around best kill move overall at high level. Incredible range, frame 10, can be used directly out of shield and a massive 170 KBG. If they're at 80+, you're in Monado Smash and they misspace something vs your shield they die. The vertical and horizontal range of it allow you to catch unsuspecting opponents above you when they think they're at a distance where you can't possibly hit them with anything unless you commit to a jump which they can react to, allowing it to serve as one of the most potent anti-airs in the game. Unfortunately it's also very high risk particularly on flat stages without platforms for you to try to land on due to being forced helpless afterwards which sucks for Shulk due to his poor air mobility, and even upon landing you still have to suffer 30 frames of landing lag. If you use it near a ledge try dropping to the ledge afterwards but then you have to fear whatever option your opponent goes by the ledge.

This is a move I feel we as Shulk players need to integrate more into our onstage and edgeguard games as it's terrifying when used properly.

Vanilla/Speed/Shield -
Jump -
Buster - .5
Smash - .5

 

[Jinban]

It looks like stuff has been mostly covered. For ledgeguarding from a ledgedrop, I have a little bit of trouble sometimes under pressure, since if we're going as low as possible to scoop up a recovering oppenents, we also need to try to get get shulk to move backwards with his drift while also pressing down so he doesn't grab the ledge. So the sequence of events is somethings like:

down or back to ledgedrop,
up-b,
press away from the stage so that the airslash faces away from the stage,
imediately press towards the stage so that shulk starts drifting backwards,
down so he doesn't autosnap to the ledge,
b again to get that second hit, and then finally,
go back to holding towards the stage to get back to the ledge.

This is all for trying to go as far out as possible with air slash againt characters who don't have a purely vertical recovery. In this scenario, fastfalling the ledgedrop means you can get down to your opponent quicker and catch them off guard, while a normal ledgedrop means you can go out further. I assume speed and jump would help with getting back to the ledge since the drift speed increases, but smash would probably allow for that possible quick kill since it's air slash but you wouldn't be able to go out as far. Anyway my question was if anyone has any better ways of doing this, as in methods that are easier to do and/or more effective at edgeguarding.

 

[Berserker.]

Alright. SO, I'll start doing the write-ups... at some point. Depends

So, here we go. Now we start with vision

 

[Masonomace]

I'd totally do a Mace write-up kind-of post, but I'm not feeling it. Oop nvm I kinda am...

Vision "I see it!"​

Overall rating:
Jump:
Speed:
Shield:
Buster: 1/2
Smash:

Rating reasonings / factors:

• The move countered
• The current Monado art active
• Whether you do or don't use the Forwarded Vision counter
• If you decide to use Vision in the air

Vision to me is the best counterattack once you understand how it do and what it's capable of. Since you can only use the stronger Forwarded attack on the ground, you should think on reaction to strong attacks used closely near the ground. A great example of this is when you hang on the ledge while a relatively telegraphed move is getting readied and you watch it carefully. If you believe your Vision is fresh, then seal their fate with a ledgejump onto the stage and immediately input Vision to interrupt the jump and smile. If you want overkill confirmed then simply hold forward and they'll learn real quick to never be careless.

Here's a link of neat information about Vision in the Metagame's second OP:

http://smashboards.com/threads/this-is-the-monados-power-metagame-discussion.369285/#post-17625423

So depending on the move countered along with what Monado art was currently active, results can vary but basically it goes like this:

• Jump art makes aerial Vision wonky, like I can barely explain what goes on half the time. There are times I use airborne Vision and Shulk will step back like the usual, but then he advances forward then travels backward while sliding across the floor. I'm guessing that slide across the floor is from the art. Monado Jump's defense reduction does not apply to Vision's damage calculations, so no extra damage is involved.
• Speed art doesn't change much about Vision other than slightly reducing the damage and perhaps the art's friction increase putting a quicker stop after the counter finishes. Vision is great to use out of a run and for airborne Vision since your air speed is nice.
• Shield art strangely doesn't affect the movement but nonetheless you deal less damage. The advantage to using Vision with a Shield art is for the times you use Shield art at high percents, making Rage effect especially helpful negating the damage drawback.
• Buster's damage increase and knockback reduction is a trade-off you may not want to consider using Vision at early percents, but the easy remedy to that would be choosing to use the Forwarded version. The reward you can reap from a greatly timed Vision through some kind of read becomes a huge asset in your favor.
• Smash art arguably is the best art with Vision because Vision is unblockable. Despite that the damage is halved, the knockback is well worth the sacrifice of damage, and the possibility of sealing a stock is high.

Some neat fun facts:

• Vision has an invincibility window that allows Shulk to evade grabs, but ofc you'll get grabbed afterward.
• Grounded Vision has more invincibility whereas the airborne has much less invincibilty.
• You can extend the distance which ties with more range if you quickly jump cancel Vision in a way that you start Vision in the air and then land on tbe floor while Shulk is stepping back. This also means that you lose your invincibility.

P.S. Both Dash Vision and Power Vision are better counter variants than Vision, imo.

 

[Berserker.]

The mere fact that you can KO opponents by countering jab at ~60% with Smash art vision (mostly with forward vision) is amazing. Anyway, vision is a great counter but like every counter in Smash, it should not be used too much. Not much to say about it to be honest. For a counter, it's seriously ridiculous but it's punishable if you whiff it ofc and it can be baited out if you're too predictable with it. It has the some of the same weaknesses as other counters so take note of that

4/5 with smash art
3.5/5 with the any other art+vanilla
3/5 in shield art

 

[erico9001]

I tend to successfully activate Vision with Monado Shield, when opponents expect their combos to still be true. I think that should raise the rating with Shield Shulk a little bit.

Let's see...
Here's information about what off-stage recoveries you can hit. While I tested it with Power Vision only originally, it should be the same for regular vision (just like it's the same for dash vision).

Ah, oh well about Fox and Falco. I tried that with power vision as well, and it did not work. Neither did dash vision. But yeah, it's deadly if you counter the start up of his up B!

Dash Vision doesn't actually send you very far if activated in the air... so it seems viable for this strategy too.
Power Vision is also great.

Something to keep in mind about this strategy is you want to fall into the recovery, or you will miss. You need to be higher up, or you will fall too low below the recovery. Also, be sure to use the move far away from the edge if they snap to it (most do).

I'm testing all of these with power vision.

Works great against Ness. I am sure this kills at incredibly early percents. Even the time when I timed the counter to soon, since he hit the counter, his recovery distance was shortened.

Works deliciously against Donkey Kong. On FD in training mode, it kills him even before 70% damage.

Against Charizard, it can work if he recovers low. You might hit him during his super armor if you activate at the way start of his recovery move. If you activate near the end, you won't hit him, as he will grab the edge. Overall, it can work against Charizard, but it's hard.

It works well against Link if you use it high enough above him, otherwise he will get out of the way of the move. The other option is to use it behind him, as the sword spins around him. You will counter backwards and stage spike him. The same is true for Toon Link, but the lower range on his move makes it a bit harder to run into with the counter.

Works well against Samus if you are far enough from the edge.

I can't get the opportunity to test it against ZSS... Does not work for Marth, and you would want to gimp him with Fair anyways. No for Ike. Apparently he has super armor at the way start of his up B, and that is the only time it would work. It does not slow down Wii Fit Trainer at all. An off-stage counter on her soccer ball might work, though. Does not work on Mario. Does not work on Doctor Mario.

Works really well on Luigi's cyclone down B! Nice way to respond to Luigis recovering low. You might take 1 damage with minimal knockback, which ends the counter immediately after it hits him. This makes it even easier to recover. It works against Luigi's up B only at the top and if he does not snap the edge.

Excellent against Peach's umbrella. You might take 1% damage/tiny knockback.

The move is extremely good against Bowser's up B. When your counter hits him, you will take 3% damage/tiny knockback, like Luigi and Peach.

I am having a hard time testing against both Wario's up B and his bike. No idea. Can't get it to work against Game and Watch too.

Works against Little Mac's up B (he doesn't snap to the edge). Can work on his side B, but why not use Fair instead, as it does not require his hitbox to hit you

Meta Knight does not seem to work. Might work if he activates it at the loop he makes, but GL.

You cannot counter Yoshi's egg mid-air.

This works against Mii Brawler's piston punch. However, I don't feel like testing all the other miis and their recoveries.

So, power vision works against:
(piston punch)(probably)
Unsure about:

Also, unsure about custom recoveries. Probably works against any slower custom recoveries.

Edit: Also, vision does not slow down horizontal movement as well as I thought it did. Usually best if you jump off the stage.

Recovery is not an issue as long as you have your air jump. I was able to recover with just the first strike of advancing air slash.

Monado Smash + vision is alright, but also riskier if you do not successfully land the vision.

Don't overuse this move. People bait visions. However, also don't forget it's there. You can use it, just be smart about it.

Regular Vision does not out-range all Zairs, but it comes close. You can counter a Zair if it's not fully spaced. It will trigger the slowing effect, unlike Projectiles. On the other hand, the two custom variants can out-range all Zairs. This is nice knowledge, because people are used to being able to throw out Zairs because they out-range everything, including all other counters.

There may be some set-us you can do in doubles with Shulk's vision. Namely, what comes to my mind, is your ally purposefully hits your counter with a projectile and then avoids it. The vision will hit any shielding enemies nearby.

Can't think of anything else that hasn't been covered.

 

[Berserker.]

Forward vision is also decent against projectiles with notable amount of commitment. Even if the slow effect doesn't kick in, you can still hit your opponent before he acts out of his animation

 

[Masonomace]

Indeed. Their endlag if it is a moderate amount, Forwarded Vision can punish.

Also wow Eric, I'm shocked that I didn't mention Shield art Visions used at early percentages to C-C-C-Combo break. Frame 7 with hitstun advantage is actually quite impressive and it's the reason I use a lot more Vision with Shield art than I do with any other art, except for Decisive Shield. Now I wanna edit my rating for Shield art Vision. . .

 

[MaxRevenge]

I'd be careful when using vision in the air and near the ground (see below).

----------------------------------O (You)
-------------------------------O (Opponent)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (ground)

Sorry for the bad illustration but if you successfully counter an attack that has ~10 frames of ending lag, it's very possible your opponent will spot dodge your vision attack after landing and punish you.

 

[Masonomace]

but if you successfully counter an attack that has ~10 frames of ending lag, it's very possible your opponent will spot dodge your vision attack after landing and punish you.

Is this referring to projectiles or moves that are slowed? Give me an example of a move having ~10 frames of endlag.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OH! Before I forget and Berserk moves onto the next move, Vision's slow effect also slows down the move's invincibility frames like Jigglypuff's Rest and Charizard F-smash.

Here's a table of what moves having invincibility can be punished with Vision:

Invincibility | Regular? | Forwarded? | Airborne?
Usmash| Yes | Yes | Yes
Fsmash| Yes | Yes | Yes
UpB airborne| Yes | Yes | Yes
UpB| L | 0 | L
DownB| No | No | No
UpB| No* | Yes | No
UpB| No* | Yes | No*
Usmash| Yes | Yes | Yes
UpB| L | 0 | L
Utilt| Yes | Yes | Yes
Dash Attack| No | No | No
Bair| Yes | Yes | Yes
DownB| No | No | No
UpB| L | 0 | L
Usmash| Yes | Yes | Yes
Usmash| Yes | Yes | Yes
NeutralB| Yes | Yes | Yes

Notes:

• Usually moves have a set amount of invincibility frames. However, Shulk's Vision countering a charged smash attack could be an interesting result most notably on Charizard's Fsmash. If Charizard's Fsmash were half-charged to fully charged, the Forwarded Vision counter will whiff because either the invincibility window prolongs itself or the slow effect is increased from the stronger damage???
• Jigglypuff Resting Vision is hilarious. Just forward it so you act sooner and prepare your delicious punishment.
• The L0Ls basically mean you will never hit those moves during their early startup.
• Zelda's NeutralB has invincibility somewhere in the move but I don't exactly know where.
• Punishing Little Mac's UpB with Forwarded Vision is neat but it won't occur often.
• The * beside an answer means that you're close to being a Yes but not quite there.

This also applies to Super Armor too!

Super Armor | Regular? | Forwarded?
DownB| Yes | Yes
SideB fully charged| Yes | Yes
Fsmash regular| Yes | Yes
Fsmash up| Yes | Yes
Fsmash down| Yes | Yes
Usmash| Yes | Yes
Dsmash| Yes | Yes~
SideB| Yes | Yes
DownB fully charged| No* | Yes

Notes:

• The ~ means that Little Mac's Dsmash countered from the front results in you dealing damage with the Forwarded variant but as your attack finishes, Little Mac's Dsmash from behind hits you. The damage trade is worth it, but is the loss of stage control worth it?. . .
• Kirby's SideB does get hit by the Forwarded variant but his Super Armor remains active thus he isn't launched. He gets launched by the regular and airborne Vision so keep that in mind.
• Wario's hit by the Forwarded variant, but he still has Super Armor.
• Mac's Fsmashes don't gain any special help when he charges them, so he only makes it worse for himself. However, Little Mac's Usmash avoids being launched by the Forwarded variant when it's 80% charged to 100% fully charged. Lastly, his Dsmash uncharged to slightly charged countered by the Forward variant trades damage but you're hit by the back hit. No matter how much he charges any of his smash attacks, your regular grounded or airborne Vision will blow smash his future away!

 

[MaxRevenge]

Is this referring to projectiles or moves that are slowed? Give me an example of a move having ~10 frames of endlag.

I'm referring to both.

For example, if you counter Captain falcon's back air or up air in that position, he can easily land and spot dodge it.

 

[Masonomace]

I'm referring to both.

For example, if you counter Captain falcon's back air or up air in that position, he can easily land and spot dodge it.

oh then yeah I get what ya mean. Eric and I tested Lucario's Nair which has 9 frames of landing lag and I was able to fast fall the move to spotdodge out of the way.

 

[erico9001]

^Wasn't this power vision?

 

[Masonomace]

Oh. . .right it was. False alarm. Although, any character has to fast fall in order to avoid the Vision counter no matter which one it is.

 

[0Synergy]

Interesting detail sonics spin dash is so easy to counter since it is all commitment and even if the counter doesnt hit Sonic lands behind Shulk and can be punished (Im new here not 2 smash just the site so if im wrong sorry but its just what i have found.)

 

[Berserker.]

So vision seems to be done

Time for Shulk's throws (and pummel)

 

[Masonomace]

Interesting detail sonics spin dash is so easy to counter since it is all commitment and even if the counter doesnt hit Sonic lands behind Shulk and can be punished (Im new here not 2 smash just the site so if im wrong sorry but its just what i have found.)

Right. When Sonic doesn't jump until after he spin dashes into the Vision counter, we can punish using the Forwarded variant. And when he chooses to jump early going airborne, not even Forward Vision can punish him. Although I'm not sure if he can be punished afterward even though he does get slowed down.

So vision seems to be done

Time for Shulk's throws (and pummel)

I vote that Pummel gets discussed first before talking about throws, or they're together yet separately at the time which doesn't make much sense.

 

[Berserker.]

I vote that Pummel gets discussed first before talking about throws, or they're together yet separately at the time which doesn't make much sense.

Well, if everyone else wants the same thing then I'm cool with it

 

[Linkmario00]

Pummels are hype in Buster and **** in Smash. With the other arts they're quite slow so they aren't that good. That's all I can say

 

[Berserker.]

I always try to get a pummel or two in buster art because more damage = amazing. Jump/vanilla pummel aren't really that good (with shield, speed, and smash being trash). So, 3.5/5 for buster, 2/5 for jump/vanilla, 1.5/5 in shield/speed, Brawl-Dorf/5 in Smash art. I'll post about throws another time. Busy making the summaries for all the specials

 

[Masonomace]

Pummel
Overall rating:
Jump:
Speed: 1/2
Shield: 1/2
Buster:
Smash:

Rating reasoning: Damage dealt via current Monado art

This is short and sweet. Pummels do not change in frame data afaik when Monado arts are involved, so only their raw damage is considered in the end of the result that you ever get a grab. Generally you don't want to try racking up pummels and then throwing at early percentages since the opponent may break free before your directional throw commences. So it's best to start pummels after their percent has reached around 45% just to be on the safe side that you can get at least one pummel in. Otherwise, have fun using Buster Pummels at later percents. Also, no matter how terrible one Smash Pummel is, it's still 1.5% extra damage to help seal a stock if it's needed.

 

[Berserker.]

Well **** that was demotivating. I lost everything I typed >_>

I'll handle the write-ups another time. ****. Lmao

 

[MaxRevenge]

Does anyone know what % you are guaranteed to get at least one pummel before they break free? I'm not too sure but I DO remember someone breaking free at around 47% or something like that ... It could be me just remembering wrong though

EDIT: Does this % change depending on the character?

 

[Abaasy]

Does anyone know what % you are guaranteed to get at least one pummel before they break free? I'm not too sure but I DO remember someone breaking free at around 47% or something like that ... It could be me just remembering wrong though

EDIT: Does this % change depending on the character?

I'm pretty sure it's dependant on how fast the opponent mashes. I've seen people get out after 1 pummel well beyond 100%, and sometimes I get like 5 pummels at 50% from trying to do a grab release edgeguard or something. So, basically anyone can get out at any reasonable percent, assuming they have mashing speeds faster than Sanic.

I don't really pummel maybe about 40% or under, even with Buster because Buster Fthrow/Bthrow do a ton of damage, and it gives you more stage control so I don't see the need to take the risk of them escaping the grab only getting 1-3 pummels.

In Buster, 1 pummel does 4%. 2 does 8%. 3 does 12%. You get the point.
In Buster, 1 Forward Throw does 15%. Back Throw does 16%. Is it really worth the pummel or should you just go for the safe 15%-16%? Of course, this is considering your opponent is at a low percent. At mid-high percents, go for a pummel. Why not? It only makes Smash art easier to kill with.

And yes, % does change depending on the character, except for Bowser Jr. only. Pummels in Buster vs Bowser Jr do 4.5% as opposed to the regular 4%.

IIRC, Bowser Jr takes 1.22x damage and knockback when you actually hit him, and if you hit the Clown Cart it does 0.88x to him.

And yes, all 4 of Shulk's throws get the 1.22x bonus against Bowser Jr. I don't know why, it just does.

 

[Berserker.]

Due to the recent posts being solely about pummel, I decided to make the current discussion only about pummel rather than discussing the move along with his other throws

 

[Masonomace]

One can mash quickly from a grab by just rapidly tapping the joystick back n forth. At my last local, I just tapped to very quickly and I was breaking free around 50% when they pummeled. I know that Shulk has great taunts sorta, and some players ask me why I don't taunt, but @Zatchiel knows what I'm talking about when it comes to setting your D-pad directions as mashing inputs like Jump, Attack, and Specials to just say no to grabs, and Brawl was the start of this controls scheme because two words: Ice Climbers.

So whenever you watch someone do this for their controls, just go ahead and insta throw them, no matter what throw it is. You don't see that many Speed Shulks pivot grab sliding and then pummel along the way? They just slide and insta Back Throw like it's nobody's business.

When a trade or something off occurs and you get the grab after what went down, it's much easier to get some pummels in since the average human won't be on the ready to mash that soon. Just some extra info.