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Are the Ice Climbers Viable?

Jam Stunna

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I've spent alot of time lurking the various IC threads, and there seems to be a subtext that, in their current form, the Ice Climbers aren't a viable tournament character. I know there are actual technical problems with the characters that prevents them from being played the way we would like, but they also seem to have a hard time against a great deal of the cast which have seen drastic improvements from Melee/Brawl. It often feels like playing ICs in PM 3.0 is an uphill battle, and the general tone of posts here seem to acknowledge that playing ICs is more a labor of love than a belief that they have the tools they need to compete at a tournament level.

So I want to elevate that subtext and ask, point blank: do you think the Ice Climbers are actually tournament viable? That is, if the Ice Climbers in their current form were played at peak efficiency, could they compete with a similarly skilled Fox/Pit/Snake/etc.? And if not, what do you think the ICs need to make that leap?
 

Foxy K

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The first, most obvious thing is that we need ledge handoffs to work. Next, I've heard that aerial ice blocks drop like rocks vs the Melee incarnation where they kind of float for a second, which makes them better at blocking things. If this is true (I've never tested it myself), they would probably be better off in their Melee form. I don't know what kind of utility Nana copying our facing while charging an fsmash gives us, but in Melee, she would just keep facing whatever direction she was when she started charging the attack, which allows for the edgehogguard, which we don't have anymore (in that form, anyway.)

Opinion things as far as new crap to give them: more priority on iceblocks. I get that they're super spammable so they shouldn't ram through everything, but they barely even cancel a lot of stuff. An Ivysaur razor leaf will barrel through a SYNCHED (ie double) iceblock, and keep coming. It's not like we can shoot them much faster than Falco's laser, or be nearly as mobile doing it, so having them not be so fragile would be nice (I mean, they ARE made of ice, but to hell with logic.). Even if we had to use two of them to beat/cancel some of the slower, more powerful projectiles (Ivysaur leaves), that would be nice. I suppose this could have implications with making our tactic of chasing the block in (much?) more powerful, but as of now they are completely unthreatening. Also, the animation where, if they get shielded, they bounce off and shrink, but the hitbox is gone? It would be kinda neat if the hitbox were still there.

Another change I would love, but don't know if it would make them TOO good, would be to have Squall Hammer snap to the ledge. It's ridiculously hard to sweetspot the edge with squall, and tyring to tether Belay is asking to die. If Squall just stopped when it hit a ledge (similar to firefoxing a ledge from above), we'd be safer and less predictable. I worry this suggestion would make them overpowered, but then again, who DOESN'T have an amazing recovery in PM?

As far as how viable they are, I find it hard to say. I'm not very good, so my own lack of skill is more to blame for my lack of success than any weaknesses in the character, especially considering the fact that my scene is still pretty bad at the matchup. If anything, their metagame is very undeveloped, so we're all kind of on our own, it seems. But I have to say that despite everything I just said, their PM incarnation is my favorite by far. Smart Nana is nice, and they have the most desynch options. It just feels like everything they were given amounted to patching holes in the character, instead of adding rims and neon underneath like some other characters got.
 

Zujx

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I think it's extremely hard to say at this point
Between technical problems and a very undeveloped pm meta game

He's a melee/brawl hybird and a brand new beast that will take awhile to see where he is really at imo
 

Foxy K

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I think it's extremely hard to say at this point
Between technical problems and a very undeveloped pm meta game

He's a melee/brawl hybird and a brand new beast that will take awhile to see where he is really at imo
They?
 

Skimchee

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If they fix the issue where Nana thinks she can up-b back to the stage then maybe. Seriously she'll do a last-resort up-b and if you try to save her with your own up-b, yours will not work either and you will both go into special fall. Self-scamming, bro.
 

Ace76

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I think the attempt to change ice climbers into a character that can't 0 to death you off a grab was an interesting change, but one that will keep them bottom tier for the existence of this game. The buffs they got do not outweigh the removal of handoffs and wobbling. People will constantly say their not that bad, but never use them.
 

Foxy K

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If they fix the issue where Nana thinks she can up-b back to the stage then maybe. Seriously she'll do a last-resort up-b and if you try to save her with your own up-b, yours will not work either and you will both go into special fall. Self-scamming, bro.
It's not THAT bad if you're aware of its tendency to happen, wait for her to finish, and then synch your recovery. she can do synched recoveries even after she's been put into special fall.
 

Kink-Link5

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The biggest problem I've been having with them is the expansive stage selection. There are a lot more stages that **** up their ability to control space than they can utilize. Yoshi's Island, Lylat Cruise, Norfair, Skyworld, Skyloft, and to an extent Green Hill Zone all have designs that allow them to easily be separated by a single attack. Meanwhile Smashville and FD are the only real strong stages available, and the rest of the neutrals are matchup dependent.

With such a large portion of the cast having shine-like moves or large, hard hitting attacks, they become much easier to take advantage of in this game. Squall hammer has quite a bit more utility now, but overall low priority on attacks makes the neutral game hard.
 

moonfolk

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They really could just use more knockback. They can combo well but have a hard time finishing, and since Nana is easier to separate, it means SoPo has to put in WAY too much work. The trade off before was that they could 0 to death you. Now, they don't really have anything that gets the job done on time and are themselves easy to kill. They'd be more viable even if all they got was more survivability and better priority.

I like the ideas of making Squall Hammer snap to the edge, and the ice block idea is cool too, but if they had that good knockback they'd punish better (which is how they developed in the meta to begin with).
 

Oatmeal.

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To me, they're viable. Even without the 0 to deaths from previous games, they're still a solid character. I donno, maybe it's my famous ignorance to the truth at work, but I really feel as though they're just a few paces back from their Melee incarnation.
 

Foxy K

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To me, they're viable. Even without the 0 to deaths from previous games, they're still a solid character. I donno, maybe it's my famous ignorance to the truth at work, but I really feel as though they're just a few paces back from their Melee incarnation.
That's the thing, though. They're a few paces back from Melee, when (most) other characters, with the notable exception of Fox, are several paces forward.

I think they're a fairly low tier in a (seemingly, at least for now) very balanced game.
 

JRC LSS

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I think they're pretty unviable right now, although it's hard to tell with so few people playing them. Their playstyle is too niche for their own good. I feel like they need a buff/change to make them more accessible. They seem to have a lot of potential, but they need people to want to play them in order to advance their metagame. Maybe give them something like desynch on tilts like balanced brawl had, although that might piss off some IC vets. Here's the excerpt from the website if you don't know what I'm talking about.

"Up tilt causes Nana to jump at a height in-between a short hop and a full hop, forward tilt causes Nana to perform a dash attack, and down tilt causes Nana to perform a dash grab. The hitboxes on all of Popo’s tilts have been adjusted to facilitate use of these actions."
 

Meme

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They have some buffed moves coming from Melee, really good Ice breath from brawl but the current PM enviroment doesn't help them much.

And well I'm way too used to Nana's Melee AI, sometimes I feel she betrays me more in PM (Up-bing just before I do, other stuff) than in Melee when she occupied the ledge instead of me and also Wavedash timing hurts my movement a lot. d .____.b
 

Hinichii.ez.™

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When the grab game is adjusted, they will become viable.
 

Hinichii.ez.™

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Whatever helps you sleep at night
 
Last edited:

S2rulL

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One of the players in my region asks me this a lot and my response is always either "Ehhhhhhhhh..." or "No."

The only reason I say this is cus Icies aren't a character you can just pick up and play. They require a good understanding of neutral and their kill/combo/desync potential which requires time and patience.

It's also blatantly obvious that they are significantly weaker than their previous iterations in Melee and Brawl, and I (personally) believe that it's due to everything they had that made them be considered "top tier" has been taken away from them.

Whether it was Melee's wobbling or Brawl's chaingrabs, people found something to complain about and want to ban. There have been players in Melee such as Fly Amanita and even Wobbles himself who have proven that wobbling isn't necessary to place high and do amazing things, but just having them adds to the underlying meta.

So as to whether they're viable in PM? It honestly varies depending on your understanding of Icies and Smash as a whole.
 
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