Are some gamers and media obsessed with "strong, independant" women?

[finalark]

Oh Jesus, this thread is back.

 

[R0Y]

Ohh god...uhhh sure we are. Some? How about most?

Come on, if you were a girl would you want timid Luigi or would you prefer Link?

Most guys, at least in the Western World, don't want a completely submissive woman either. If they did, the millions of shy, quiet women, would be easy "targets."

 

[LivewiresXe]

Oh man, this sort of discussion again. There's admittedly so much I could try to or start to say on this, but since when it comes to subjects such as this, I tend to get really unintentionally blunt, I'm debating on saying anything.

 

[TimeSmash]

Oh man, this sort of discussion again. There's admittedly so much I could try to or start to say on this, but since when it comes to subjects such as this, I tend to get really unintentionally blunt, I'm debating on saying anything.

As long as you're polite I don't see the harm. It's just discussion really.

 

[Ekans647]

My ideal game is a female protagonist who starts of as weak and scared, but learns and becomes brave and strong, like Lucas from Mother 3.

My only concern with feminism is when it becomes tearing down strong male role models to bring women up, instead of ideally creating more strong female role models for girls. There is a need for both strong male and female heros and role models, the only problem being that men have always had one, while women never had the equivalent.

Anyway, that's just my two cents.

 

[Twewy]

When it comes to characters, I don't look at gender. I develop the actual personality and their traits, and I don't focus on whether they're gay or female or a freaking elephant. A "strong" female character can still be dependent on men, such as Lady Macbeth. A character can also be gay without shoving it in someone's face, which I think Fallout: New Vegas did a terrific job of.

Unless it's supposed to be a parody or comedy or something silly, then, in my opinion, it's okay to bend the rules a little for the sake of humor.

 

[LivewiresXe]

The way I've always seen things is that if you put in a gay character or a certain kind of female character for the purpose of having one and go all "hey look, they're gay!" or "look, a female character!" and make the focus on that, rather than their characteristics...that you're being even more disrespectful to those communities than if you didn't have them in at all.

 

[finalark]

The way I've always seen things is that if you put in a gay character or a certain kind of female character for the purpose of having one and go all "hey look, they're gay!" or "look, a female character!" and make the focus on that, rather than their characteristics...that you're being even more disrespectful to those communities than if you didn't have them in at all.

I second this. That's just as bad as when dramas and sitcoms have a character in a wheelchair whose entire character is that they're in a wheelchair in a desperate attempt to be "heartwarming."

 

[Dark_Crono]

OP i dont think your point of view is rotten but you should ask yourself why you think that a girl in distress is weak and submissive.
i dont know if im the only one here that thinks this way but i never saw peach as a weak submissive girl just because mario had to save her and the same goes with zelda. I think the real problem is that most of the games just dont develop female characters.

 

[Aninymouse]

Are some gamers and media obsessed with "strong, independant" women?

Yes.

It's called politically correct garbage. Are there women and men out there like that? Yes. Should it be important to make sure that characters never fall into gender roles or stereotypes? Not nearly as important as the SJW would have you believe. It really matters so little in the grand scheme of life that it's pathetic that these people devote their free time to complaining about it and pressuring companies to conform to their demands. They're just glorified bullies, really.

 

[TimeSmash]

Yes.

It's called politically correct garbage. Are there women and men out there like that? Yes. Should it be important to make sure that characters never fall into gender roles or stereotypes? Not nearly as important as the SJW would have you believe. It really matters so little in the grand scheme of life that it's pathetic that these people devote their free time to complaining about it and pressuring companies to conform to their demands. They're just glorified bullies, really.

Some of it is sort of BS. Especially when so many games target a primarily male-based audience, like Halo or something. No, there's not that many girls because there are so many men playing it. Granted, maybe the industry shouldn't be focusing solely on genders, as female gamers exist and are on the rise, but in the end so much of it is "What's going to make us money?"

 

[Aninymouse]

Some of it is sort of BS. Especially when so many games target a primarily male-based audience, like Halo or something. No, there's not that many girls because there are so many men playing it. Granted, maybe the industry shouldn't be focusing solely on genders, as female gamers exist and are on the rise, but in the end so much of it is "What's going to make us money?"

I would agree with you, except PC pandering doesn't have much to do with actual concerns for frofit so much as it has to do with people worrying more about what some loudmouth bullies will think of them, rather than what is the best or correct choice.

Hey, this is a SSB forum. Remember the ****storm that Zero Suit Samus started when she was revealed? People were unhappy from all kinds of angles for all kinds of reasons with all kinds of motivations. But you know what? They all settled down and shut up after a while, didn't they? I was even one of the people who had a problem with her design (it had nothing to do with the shoes, trust me), and even I am glad everyone, for the most part, just shut up about it.

Now, if Nintendo changed ZSS to meet the demands of the SWJ elite who don't even play most video games? Now you just pissed off a far more vast number of people in the name of pleasing the vocal minority. It is a cowardly move. It may not even be the right move, business-wise or otherwise.

That's where I'm coming from.

 

[TimeSmash]

I would agree with you, except PC pandering doesn't have much to do with actual concerns for frofit so much as it has to do with people worrying more about what some loudmouth bullies will think of them, rather than what is the best or correct choice.

Hey, this is a SSB forum. Remember the ****storm that Zero Suit Samus started when she was revealed? People were unhappy from all kinds of angles for all kinds of reasons with all kinds of motivations. But you know what? They all settled down and shut up after a while, didn't they? I was even one of the people who had a problem with her design (it had nothing to do with the shoes, trust me), and even I am glad everyone, for the most part, just shut up about it.

Now, if Nintendo changed ZSS to meet the demands of the SWJ elite who don't even play most video games? Now you just pissed off a far more vast number of people in the name of pleasing the vocal minority. It is a cowardly move. It may not even be the right move, business-wise or otherwise.

That's where I'm coming from.

Can you inform me of what SWJ means? I'm not familiar with the term.

I do agree with your PC-bully argument. Not exactly related, but within the same vein, the controversy that Tomadachi Life caused seemed pretty unwarranted. I'm gay myself, and I never saw the huge deal. It was nice of Nintendo to apologize, but that game wasn't really aiming to offend anyone. People just saw it as kind of a backhand, I guess, which is kind of synonymous here, to an extent.

I am definitely for women being strong and independent, but also for the opposite (not in a patriarchal, "do as the man says" kind of way, but maybe shy, submissive, playing a more typical princess role). Men should be able to play both roles too without it being an issue. I think as great as this era is in terms of acceptance, people sometimes think a lack of thought (like the Tomadachi Life example) is portrayed as discrimination. If you have a woman character playing a captured princess, people shouldn't be flying off the handle that it's a woman--they should be flying off the handle because that particular trope is over 30 years old.

The whole Zero Suit Samus thing was a tad ridiculous, and I'm still not really on board with how ZSS has been portrayed in recent years, but it's not like ZSS came out of nowhere. The whole point of her character was

(Slight Metroid: Zero Mission spoilers ahead)

Spoiler

to have Samus unsuited and kind of in a panicky situation, which we saw before Zero Mission, but the suit (or lack thereof) can be seen as a true "What do I do here?" moment for both Samus and the player. If the suit remained intact when her ship crashed, that sense of desperation would most definitely have been adulerated for the player, and probably for Samus in that situation as well. Basically what this spoiler is trying to say is that the Zero Suit actually had an origin and purpose, and wasn't just like ooooooh sexy Samus.

Then that game passed, and she became more sexualized. I can't speak for Other M since I didn't play that much of it. But the heels were definitely sort of ridiculous, but at the same time kind of awesome. Plus, Japan definitely has more of a "sexy playfullness" that doesn't always bridge well to other countries, notably America in this case. It's not like Japan is saying women are inferior to men, their depiction of women is just more sexual. And a lot of people just simply don't know that, gamers and nongamers alike. You could tie games with art heavily influence from Japan or that use anime as their primary form of art into the same branch. That's not to say there aren't games where women are overtly sexualized (Leisure Suit Larry, DoA Xtreme Beach Volleyball), but those kind of games aren't really a vast part of the market.

I just think some people are getting really sensitive over things. A lot of games sexualize women, yeah, and there could definitely be a little less of that. But then what? Is everyone supposed to wear burlap sacks or something? I think we're getting more progressive with games that for a lack of a better term, treat women equally, but I don't think the whole "strong independent woman" thing should be awkwardly forced into games, or media in general. That's not the most helpful haha. I feel the same way about minorities too--if a woman is in the game, and happens to be kickass, there's no need for the game to keep constantly bringing it up. The same would go for a gay character.

I'm definitely rambling haha, I hope I got some good points across. As a summary, I'd like a little less sexualization, and a little more "Oh, a strong woman. Cool" attitude in games, rather than it being shoved in your face. (Again, not specific to just woman, with any minority, or really character archetype in general).

 

[Aninymouse]

Can you inform me of what SWJ means? I'm not familiar with the term.

I do agree with your PC-bully argument. Not exactly related, but within the same vein, the controversy that Tomadachi Life caused seemed pretty unwarranted. I'm gay myself, and I never saw the huge deal. It was nice of Nintendo to apologize, but that game wasn't really aiming to offend anyone. People just saw it as kind of a backhand, I guess, which is kind of synonymous here, to an extent.

I am definitely for women being strong and independent, but also for the opposite (not in a patriarchal, "do as the man says" kind of way, but maybe shy, submissive, playing a more typical princess role). Men should be able to play both roles too without it being an issue. I think as great as this era is in terms of acceptance, people sometimes think a lack of thought (like the Tomadachi Life example) is portrayed as discrimination. If you have a woman character playing a captured princess, people shouldn't be flying off the handle that it's a woman--they should be flying off the handle because that particular trope is over 30 years old.

The whole Zero Suit Samus thing was a tad ridiculous, and I'm still not really on board with how ZSS has been portrayed in recent years, but it's not like ZSS came out of nowhere. The whole point of her character was

(Slight Metroid: Zero Mission spoilers ahead)

Spoiler

to have Samus unsuited and kind of in a panicky situation, which we saw before Zero Mission, but the suit (or lack thereof) can be seen as a true "What do I do here?" moment for both Samus and the player. If the suit remained intact when her ship crashed, that sense of desperation would most definitely have been adulerated for the player, and probably for Samus in that situation as well. Basically what this spoiler is trying to say is that the Zero Suit actually had an origin and purpose, and wasn't just like ooooooh sexy Samus.

Then that game passed, and she became more sexualized. I can't speak for Other M since I didn't play that much of it. But the heels were definitely sort of ridiculous, but at the same time kind of awesome. Plus, Japan definitely has more of a "sexy playfullness" that doesn't always bridge well to other countries, notably America in this case. It's not like Japan is saying women are inferior to men, their depiction of women is just more sexual. And a lot of people just simply don't know that, gamers and nongamers alike. You could tie games with art heavily influence from Japan or that use anime as their primary form of art into the same branch. That's not to say there aren't games where women are overtly sexualized (Leisure Suit Larry, DoA Xtreme Beach Volleyball), but those kind of games aren't really a vast part of the market.

I just think some people are getting really sensitive over things. A lot of games sexualize women, yeah, and there could definitely be a little less of that. But then what? Is everyone supposed to wear burlap sacks or something? I think we're getting more progressive with games that for a lack of a better term, treat women equally, but I don't think the whole "strong independent woman" thing should be awkwardly forced into games, or media in general. That's not the most helpful haha. I feel the same way about minorities too--if a woman is in the game, and happens to be kickass, there's no need for the game to keep constantly bringing it up. The same would go for a gay character.

I'm definitely rambling haha, I hope I got some good points across. As a summary, I'd like a little less sexualization, and a little more "Oh, a strong woman. Cool" attitude in games, rather than it being shoved in your face. (Again, not specific to just woman, with any minority, or really character archetype in general).

This was an excellent post. I found myself agreeing with nearly everything. Maybe you and I would get along.

A "SJW" is a social justice warrior. It's an ironic pejoritive term used to describe the "rabid bloggers," what have you, that champion equal representation over actual equality, i.e., what you described as what not to do. It's pejorative because it's ironic: they think themselves warriors of the weak and oppressed, when in reality they are more like whiney bullies.

Like you said, if a character has a certain identity (such as submissive or supportive female, or independant female, etc.), it shouldn't be their main or defining characteristic; it shouldn't be WHY they exist, per se.

I think about Ike from Fire Emblem: a character who has arguably a total lack of romantic involvement, who is not defined by any glaring stereotypes, but who has a very dynamic and endearing character in his games. Much of him is left a mystery, but what we do see is a boy who struggles to live up to his father's legacy grow into a man of great compassion and charisma, noble, true, straightforward, and practical. The story of Path of Radiance and its sequel aren't blow-your-mind amazing by any means, but rather, it's the solid gameplay and great characterization, like Ike, that draw you in.

If we had more characters who showed a more believable range of actions, and just less shallow characters in general, I think everyone would be better off.

 

[TimeSmash]

This was an excellent post. I found myself agreeing with nearly everything. Maybe you and I would get along.

A "SJW" is a social justice warrior. It's an ironic pejoritive term used to describe the "rabid bloggers," what have you, that champion equal representation over actual equality, i.e., what you described as what not to do. It's pejorative because it's ironic: they think themselves warriors of the weak and oppressed, when in reality they are more like whiney bullies.
.

Ahhhh, I understand. I don't read a lot of them, and what I have read for the most part could be described as "chronic exaggeration" Zooey Deschanel's site HelloGiggles is a prime example. I'm all for feminism, but that site tends to make the biggest deals over things no one have heard of, some things actually valid and others not. For the record, I AM for journalism and other media that deals with PC stuff with a purpose--that being said, I was sympathetic to the ZSS posts at first. Journalism that actually attacks topics that matter (if we were speaking about games--actually a recent conversation about Smash and using the terms "****" "***" and other such colorful terms that I don't really like in the competitive sense) might come off slightly pretentious, but even if I disagree with the opinion in an argument like that, I'm willing to listen if the contender is providing valid points and not just based nonsense or insults.

I think about Ike from Fire Emblem: a character who has arguably a total lack of romantic involvement, who is not defined by any glaring stereotypes, but who has a very dynamic and endearing character in his games. Much of him is left a mystery, but what we do see is a boy who struggles to live up to his father's legacy grow into a man of great compassion and charisma, noble, true, straightforward, and practical. The story of Path of Radiance and its sequel aren't blow-your-mind amazing by any means, but rather, it's the solid gameplay and great characterization, like Ike, that draw you in.

Actually thinking about it, Chrono Trigger is an excellent example of diversity in gaming, when I really don't think it intended to be. Of note is Marle, who (slight spoiler)

Spoiler

turns out to be a princess

and while this characteristic of her story, it never feels that forced or is simmered down to a typical role. She's incredibly positive, and later in the game shows incredible determination and even some cunning. She might be the most emotional one of the cast, and is somewhat girly, but again that's her, it's not all about her being a girl at all. She's a solid character all around. Other notable examples in that game are Lucca, whose nerdiness is her highlight--not that fact that she's a GIRL and a nerd. Ayla is also really enjoyable as a character, too. Queen Zeal is also a borderline majestic villian as well

The Fire Emblem games have some great characters, Ike definitely being a highlight. There is a speech in Sacred Stones that Ephraim says that describes some of the innate characteristics of men, which is a surprisingly deep topic for FE to cover. Ike also has some support conversation topics that highlight on his past and strengthen his character without cheapening it.

And definitely less shallow characters, especially when there are a lot of good examples out there. Jade from Beyond Good and Evil another excellent exemplar of a multidimensional and rather interesting character

 

[Mic_128]

If you have a woman character playing a captured princess, people shouldn't be flying off the handle that it's a woman--they should be flying off the handle because that particular trope is over 30 years old.

It's a lot older than 30 years. Look up Helen of Troy. That was around 1200 BC. The man saving the woman from [insert peril here] is something that's thousands of years old and is one of the oldest story plots. Why? Because men wrote the stories, men were the ones who were the ones going out and doing things. Not women. We're in a different age, and I think it's a pretty damn fair call to try and spread from the standard "women can't do anything" of that period.

Also, women are a pretty damn large market. Why wouldn't you want to give them games that show that they're just as able at rescuing someone as a man?

Yes, there are people who go over the top, there's always people like that on every side of any disagreement. Don't throw away legitimate points with your argument based around the vocal minority of that position being overzealous.

 

[LivewiresXe]

All I'm going to say on the whole misguided "Social Justice Warriors" thing, is that they're the type who fail to realize that actual equality involves "equal opportunity" not "equal representation". It wouldn't be exactly fair or equal if a hiring firm had 10 openings, hired 5 guys for it because they were the best qualified, and then went all "sorry, we can't hire you, the next 5 spots have to go to women" even if the 6th guy was better qualified.

With games, those types of people are the people who should be ignored and will instantly call a game sexist if it has a male lead character, or if a support/background character is female, insist it's sexist that they're not in the forefront.

 

[TimeSmash]

It's a lot older than 30 years. Look up Helen of Troy. That was around 1200 BC. The man saving the woman from [insert peril here] is something that's thousands of years old and is one of the oldest story plots.

I meant in terms of video games haha.

Also, women are a pretty damn large market. Why wouldn't you want to give them games that show that they're just as able at rescuing someone as a man?

Yes, there are people who go over the top, there's always people like that on every side of any disagreement. Don't throw away legitimate points with your argument based around the vocal minority of that position being overzealous.

Wasn't there a game like that? Where a girl rescued the guy? I think it kind of portrayed the guy as weak or submissive, which albeit a whole other subject why do captives have to be automatically presumed as helpless? Sometimes it's just wrong place, wrong time.

 

[Ragna22]

I think people should just shut up and enjoy their video game. Really though, I think video game females are represented just fine, we have the strong ones like Chun-li, we have the ones who have their own games like Samus and then there's the huge amount of modern games where you can choose which gender you want your character to be so you can play as the strong female character you've always wanted.

Granted we obviously have games where video game females are sort of exploited, like it's mostly their body that the camera focuses on in cutscenes or something, though one could easily make the argument that male characters get similar treatment, I mean you look at a character like Kasumi from Dead Or Alive, yeah she lacks pants but her top is mostly covered, meanwhile Zangief from Street Fighter, being the wrestler that he is, is a giant, hairy near naked dude who defeats his opponents by pile driving them while their face is dangerously close to his sack. You know what game I noticed balances this stuff out completely? Tekken Tag Tournament 2 where one of the DLC packs was swimsuits for every character including the male characters who mostly wear speedos, say what you will about Nina and Anna's bikinis but I for one don't like seeing Heihachi in a speedo.

As for the damsels in distress, Zelda at least has legitimate reasons for how she gets kidnapped because we often see signs that she's very capable in combat and she's pretty powerful in general, in fact I'll always stand by the idea that Link Between Worlds Zelda is THE most badass incarnation of the character because **SPOILER** even after she's been turned into a painting that woman still has enough magic and will power to give you light arrows from beyond the painting. **SPOILER OVER** But even in the other games, most of the time she's helping youbfight the final boss in some way. Also say what you want about Peach, I get that she does pravtically nothing in most of the Mario games but when she becomes playable in one of the platformer titles she shows that she's just as capable of getting stuff done as Mario, why she never displays this in the other games I have no answer to.

 

[FirestormNeos]

Wanna see why we can't have nice things? Say hello to the Deadly Six of Sonic: Lost World.

Who are these guys and one gal? simple: boring stereotypes that die with two charged hits. They're entire existence is fully summed up in one word. But if the green one wasn't a girl. If the green one was just another guy with some other non-racial stereotype, no one would care. Why is this acceptable? Shouldn't we be angry about them being hollow creatures no matter what the gender? I suppose people just think it's worse to have a shallow female character then to have a shallow male character because since female characters aren't as common, there's more wasted potential then there would be otherwise. I don't subscribe to this thinking, but I do in the case of some games, and as a result I could potentially say some really mean things to say about Other M and it's creators that I don't want to talk about. However, this is beyond my ultimate point.

Zeena and the other Deadly Six Members not bad characters because they are offensive. They are bad characters because they have no complexity to them. This is a problem almost every video game has run into, and that is not acceptable. Mario has no personality, Link has no personality, the protagonists of Pokemon have no personality. Not Master Chief, Not Gordon Freeman, Not the guy from Assassin's Greed. The hordes of generic "white guy with the buff chest and MK-47" characters inspired by Gears of War or CoD? No personality. That character in Journey doesn't seem to have one either, from what I've seen, which is embarrassing because that's an indie game, which is supposed to have this thing nailed to the ground. Fighting games are especially bad with this, as they don't have the time, budget or necessity to put any soul into their characters. Maybe it'd even backfire because now we'd actually like the characters, and feel bad about seeing them get killed/defeated/knocked out in a fight and not want to play the game as a result!

Video Game Characters who have as much character as Movie character is a very, very rare occasion (especially outside of indie games), and a Video Game Character who has as much character as a Movie character of a good movie? That's like catching a Shiny with Perfect IVs at full health on the first poke ball!

And you know what makes this all worse? We make characters utter trash on purpose. Way back when this was justified it was due to limitations. However, when we finally did have the potential to make characters worth a darn, we were too afraid to create a disconnect between the character and player, and too proud to stray away from the tradition of silent protagonists.

Thank god we have characters like Luigi, GLaDOS and Sonic who at least try to have a soul! Otherwise, I would've given up on the idea of a video game with a good story long ago. Yes, there's not many well made female video game characters, but there aren't many well made male characters in video games either.

If you do not have the time to read the above wall of text, think Sturgeon's Law, only with just characters instead of entire works.

A plot about a girl in captivity who uses her own skill to escape? Well.....

freaking preach it. (yeah, I know this is hypocritical of me to compliment considering how I just ranted about how almost everyone in video games are either silent protagonists or might as well be. I don't care.)

 

[finalark]

Lots of rage

I think your problem is that you're looking for character depth in all the wrong places. Sonic the Hedgehog is a platformer, whose primary purpose is to provide the player with a series of skill-based challenges as they attempt to navigate through traps and make tricky jumps.

Basically, I don't need someone to read Wheel of Time to me to motivate me to dive through an obstacle course. The challenge itself is the motivation.

Fighting games are tools for competition. When well crafted, they are deep, require lightning fast thought, strategy and an understanding of the game to win against a skilled opponent.

Basically, I don't need someone to read The Dark Tower to me to motivate me to play a game of chess with someone. The competitive depth of the game itself is the motivation.

Games do not need story or deep characters to be engaging. Nobody needs to give me the lengthy back story of the Kingdom of the Black Stones and the Kingdom of the White Stones to get me to play Go. Nobody needs to tell me that my girlfriend has been kidnapped and I need to win to save her to get me interested in playing some Yu Gi Oh.

That being said, some games can, in fact, have very solid and engaging narratives with very well written characters. Persona 4 has an absolutely incredibly well written and believable cast, Eternal Darkness has a very engaging story that really draws you in and makes you want to know what kind of horrors await the heroes and Katawa Shoujo has some of the most genuine and heartfelt writing I have ever read in my entire life.

But those things aren't necessarily necessary to make a game, and I think it actually drags some games down. Like I'm sure that most people completely skipped over the lengthy walls of text prefacing every character's brief story mode in Soul Calibur IV. Granted, it would be nice to move away from some of the cliches and tropes, but it isn't necessary for every game.

Really, if you're looking for intricate and intelligently written characters you're better off heading down to your local Barnes and Nobel and picking up a book rather than playing a video game.

 

[CrossoverMan]

I just like how liberally he used the words 'weak and submissive' as if it is a good quality for someone to have.

Of course there are always going to be double standards between males and females in any kind of fiction, but why do people always have to bring it back to video games? Is that really the worst medium?

I've always wondered though why we never react when we see a man hitting a woman in fighting games though. Weird.

 

[FirestormNeos]

Basically, I don't need someone to read Wheel of Time to me to motivate me to dive through an obstacle course. The challenge itself is the motivation.

That isn't enough for a lot of people. If it was, no one would've ever questioned Peach's existance.

Basically, I don't need someone to read The Dark Tower to me to motivate me to play a game of chess with someone. The competitive depth of the game itself is the motivation.

Again, not enough for everyone. Dead or Alive and Skullgirls wouldn't have a gun at their heads otherwise.

Games do not need story or deep characters to be engaging. Nobody needs to give me the lengthy back story of the Kingdom of the Black Stones and the Kingdom of the White Stones to get me to play Go. Nobody needs to tell me that my girlfriend has been kidnapped and I need to win to save her to get me interested in playing some Yu Gi Oh.

While I personally agree with this, it's not going to be enough for an art medium. Plenty of Art forms involve telling a story. Last I checked, Citizen Kane and Shakespeare Works are stories.

But those things aren't necessarily necessary to make a game, and I think it actually drags some games down.

There was (hopefully) never any implication that this was the case. Although good characters were very rare, good quality games are not. Plenty of 'em.

Like I'm sure that most people completely skipped over the lengthy walls of text prefacing every character's brief story mode in Soul Calibur IV.

That might be saying something about the quality of the story.

Granted, it would be nice to move away from some of the cliches and tropes, but it isn't necessary for every game.

Contradictory Statement. In order to "move away" from a trope, we have to stay away from it entirely until everyone who remembered the trope dies. And every game will have to do it's part in said goal.

Really, if you're looking for intricate and intelligently written characters you're better off heading down to your local Barnes and Nobel and picking up a book rather than playing a video game.

Which is why video games are stuck being entertainment. A lot of us would prefer advancing games as an art form. Like you said above, there are games with really good story, but those games might as well be thrown into a wood chipper because "lol games aren't about story."

 

[finalark]

That isn't enough for a lot of people. If it was, no one would've ever questioned Peach's existance.



Again, not enough for everyone. Dead or Alive and Skullgirls wouldn't have a gun at their heads otherwise.

Well, I suppose it is a point of contention for some folks. For me, personally, though, I'm more interested in the game play. Although while we're on that topic, I would like to see certain games actually try to make believable women instead of humanized blow-up dolls that could only appeal to thirteen year old boys who just discovered that they quite like the opposite sex but have no idea what a real woman looks like.

While I personally agree with this, it's not going to be enough for an art medium. Plenty of Art forms involve telling a story. Last I checked, Citizen Kane and Shakespeare Works are stories.

Plenty of art forms also don't. For example, Yayoi Kusama's 'You Who Are Getting Obliterated in the Dancing Swarm of Fireflies" is a work that is entirely about the experience. There's no story, just you, the room and the feeling that it generates. I think that this is something that video games are much better at than telling a story. Due to the interactive nature of the medium, games can create experiences that films and books could only dream about. Amnesia might not have the deepest characters or the most incredible narrative,but isn't drawing the player in so well that they are legitimately afraid as they cower in a corner hiding from monsters as much an art as weaving a yarn is?

Contradictory Statement. In order to "move away" from a trope, we have to stay away from it entirely until everyone who remembered the trope dies. And every game will have to do it's part in said goal.

By "moving away" from a trope I don't mean discarding it entirely. There's nothing wrong with tropes, there's just something wrong when you want to creating a solid narrative with deep, intricate characters but keep falling back on the same archetypes without doing anything to present them in a new and interesting way.

Which is why video games are stuck being entertainment. A lot of us would prefer advancing games as an art form. Like you said above, there are games with really good story, but those games might as well be thrown into a wood chipper because "lol games aren't about story."

And as I just said above, something doesn't have to have a story to be art.

 

[FirestormNeos]

Well, I suppose it is a point of contention for some folks. For me, personally, though, I'm more interested in the game play.

Of course gameplay takes priority, but that doesn't excuse everything else being terrible.

Although while we're on that topic, I would like to see certain games actually try to make believable women instead of humanized blow-up dolls that could only appeal to thirteen year old boys who just discovered that they quite like the opposite sex but have no idea what a real woman looks like.

Umm, sir? That is the topic of this thread. Or at least it was until we ended up derailing it.

By "moving away" from a trope I don't mean discarding it entirely. There's nothing wrong with tropes, there's just something wrong when you want to creating a solid narrative with deep, intricate characters but keep falling back on the same archetypes without doing anything to present them in a new and interesting way.

Oh good, I was worried you were contradicting yourself.

 

[Twewy]

People who argue that almost naked women are sexualized while almost naked men aren't never played Dead Rising 2.