Apex 2014, lets talk about that Ganondorf

[JUGGERNAUT043]

So i watched and seen him get tossed around like a ragdoll by ivysaur (which i remember a few ppl saying in the MU i created that ganon had an advantage) and i still stand by my statement and now believe that ganon is the worst character undoubtedly. its been to long and hes shown to much failure in the hands of newbies and melee vets alike to be claimed effective beyond boxing practice, hes completely outclassed by the other heavies and some middle weights now, and with more brawl tourney wins than project m and now with this absolutely HORRIBLE Play at the biggest tourney in the country damn near whats the excuse now and whats being done project m? i know sombody will make a claim and show a video or something in defense ( no offense junebug ur ganon was solid but you COULDNT get it done with him u needed diddy which i must say ur diddy is nice and id focus on it more) but it wont make much of a diffrence now. so whats the next update gonna have? hm? Better speed? more power than bowser like melee? something that will actually help him overall or perhaps just remove ganon entirely or attach a voice clip to him with the target test guy saying "failure"? yeah im just complaining but tell me u think hes done well compared to bowser or 3D( who was top 8 i believe at apex).

so thats my opinion on ganon im curious of your alls?

 

[ShadowGanon]

i know sombody will make a claim and show a video or something in defense but it wont make much of a diffrence now.

Well, there go all the possible replies I could make...

I personally love Ganon the way he is now. But I am one person.

V And that guy down there would be a second person. V

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

Do you really need to make a new thread every time you want to ***** about Ganon being unviable?

Kage didn't do great in PM at Apex, but he also doesn't put the time into learning any of the new matchups. He clearly didn't know how to edgeguard tethers, which was a huge disadvantage in his fight against Ivysaur (I think it was Denti, not sure), and in general just didn't seem to know much about Ivysaur. Edgeguarding Ivy is fairly easy, and is pretty much where the matchup is won, but Kage didn't look like he knew how and he lost. It's as simple as that.

Results aren't the only measure of a character's viability. It takes a dedicated and amazing player to take a character far into a huge tournament like Apex, and I don't think PM Ganon has that player yet (sadly, it's not Kage). Arty might be able to take him far, I don't know. I've heard leelue is good, but for whatever reason I can't find videos of the guy, so I don't really know.

Basically, quit being a negative *****. If you truly don't see any potential in Ganondorf, that's fine, but you don't need to make a new thread phrasing "Ganondorf am bad plz buff" in a slightly different way every time a tournament isn't won by Ganondorf. Seriously.

 

[Wrestlemania]

I believe it has already been said that Ganon is going to get looked at for the next major update. Until we just need the champions of Stomping and Dunking to hone their skills and attend tourneys. HRUAAAGH!

 

[Xinc]

To be honest, in the few videos I saw of Kage, I felt like he wasn't using the choke to his full potential. It's good for chaining and giving people headaches. Aerial choke (unteched) to utilt deals early kills. I feel Ganondorf might need a small buff to keep up with the cast, but I don't see him lacking too much outside of grab ranges.

 

[leelue]

I got 33rd at apex, higher than Kage

But I also played sonic/ganon, not just ganon.

And I also got taken out by Denti Ivysaur. Ivysaur isn't someone I can just play against with no matchup knowledge.

Not sure how it's easy to edgeguard ivy with ganon. Sounds like an easy way to die.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

Not sure how it's easy to edgeguard ivy with ganon. Sounds like an easy way to die.

I've always found it fairly easy, but to be fair I have yet to play against a truly good Ivy main. At the very least, tethers are fairly easy to get something effective out of if you grab the ledge, especially since 3.0's tether updates.

 

[shwickid222]

Right when ivy tethers before he actually grabs the ledge, wavedash off and utilt. 9of ten it connects. There your welcome.

 

[CORY]

I got 33rd at apex, higher than Kage

But I also played sonic/ganon, not just ganon.

And I also got taken out by Denti Ivysaur. Ivysaur isn't someone I can just play against with no matchup knowledge.

Not sure how it's easy to edgeguard ivy with ganon. Sounds like an easy way to die.

ivy's a pita to edgeguard. unless you can run her jumps out and force her to recover more even with the level, i find it usually more worthwhile to just edgehog and force the getup jump, then punish with fair and chase back the damned thing back and forth across the stage, repeating the edgehog process.

however, i don't have all that much ivy matchup knowledge.

ivy in general, though, is so annoying as ganon. she has more range and quicker attacks on so much stuff, along with razor leaf.

 

[shwickid222]

u can wizard foot through razor leaf

 

[GenericName]

I literally just started playing Ganon last night. And I can tell you this:

His bread & butter is Air Flame choke -> Utilt when opponent is at 60-70%. You will (with 98% assurance) KO the opponent. And you will hear satisfaction in their pain scream.

 

[CORY]

you know, i criminally underuse utilt. i've been working on my spacing game with f/dtilt more lately. i'll have to work on that.

and you can wizard foot through the leaf, but if you do it on reaction, ivy can just shield and punish you. on a good read, it's excellent, but you can't always get those : ( and doing it close to ivy means the ivy made a mistake, because you really shouldn't be razor leafing in close quarters. that's like pizzaing when you're supposed to french fry.

 

[shwickid222]

haha french frie

 

[Yanoss1313]

that's like pizzaing when you're supposed to french fry.

But what about french fry pizza? >.>

 

[xXDarkRisingXx]

Ganon has great potential. it just takes the right player to bring it out. Techchasing With flame choke he's great and annoys opponent a lot lol

 

[dRevan64]

But what about french fry pizza? >.>

God bless the United States of America

 

[xXDarkRisingXx]

God bless the United States of America

Lol yes in in did my friend damn now I'm hungry after looking at that pic lol

 

[Nguz95]

I literally just started playing Ganon last night. And I can tell you this:

His bread & butter is Air Flame choke -> Utilt when opponent is at 60-70%. You will (with 98% assurance) KO the opponent. And you will hear satisfaction in their pain scream.

Air Flame choke is really slow, and some characters (like spacies and super floaty people), can either tech the first hit of Utilt or float away into oblivion. It's certainly a good move, but I'd say it's more situational than a B&B. Sometimes setting up a tech chase with grounded side-b is more effective.

 

[leelue]

Side b will never be bread and butter for ganon.
Also I can't figure out if that up tilt post to edgeguard was satirical

 

[Fedex]

The new ganon update rumors have me a bit worried....He is already a big target and it seems the team is addressing problems that ganon users dont even complain about....

IMO the thing ganon lacks is close-in and follow up abilities....every back fist or dunk sends the enemy far enough away that its hard to follow up....i would lessen the lag animation on his dash attack to give him the ability to use it as a short speed boost in times of chase....maybe even give him a grab cancel out of it like a wario style of mix up...

I think ganon is one of the only TRULY balanced characters in PM...the issue is not what ganon lacks its what other characters have that are OP that make him seem weaker...

I would really urge the team to really look at tiny nerfs on other characters for balance instead of adding some crazy never before seen or used mechanics and animations ....


FEDEX

 

[Fedex]

Let me also add...i love the SMALL adjustments to already present moves...ledge canceling down b....utilt...making down b reversible... Great....ganon mechanics adjusted that allow him to keep his core style...

Also....make utilt two button presses so ganon can have a jab reset and better close range mix up

 

[Bazkip]

The new ganon update rumors have me a bit worried....He is already a big target and it seems the team is addressing problems that ganon users dont even complain about....

IMO the thing ganon lacks is close-in and follow up abilities....every back fist or dunk sends the enemy far enough away that its hard to follow up....i would lessen the lag animation on his dash attack to give him the ability to use it as a short speed boost in times of chase....maybe even give him a grab cancel out of it like a wario style of mix up...

I think ganon is one of the only TRULY balanced characters in PM...the issue is not what ganon lacks its what other characters have that are OP that make him seem weaker...

I would really urge the team to really look at tiny nerfs on other characters for balance instead of adding some crazy never before seen or used mechanics and animations ....


FEDEX

What rumours? All the team has said is they're taking a look at him, everything else is just ideas the community has come up with. Unless I've missed something.

Also, utilt being two button presses would be very strange, no other tilt works like that and it'd just be kinda awkward I think. Dsmash should be two presses though.

 

[CORY]

yeah, all there is from the dev team is "we're looking into him." and "if anything gets addressed it'll be some combination of: his vulnerability to pressure, his lack of neutral options, and/or his vulnerability to projectile camping".

even the playtester in dallas hasn't said anything other than those two statements to me, in person. there's nothing concrete as far as changes are concerned.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

Also, utilt being two button presses would be very strange, no other tilt works like that and it'd just be kinda awkward I think. Dsmash should be two presses though.

Snake and Meta Knights f-tilts are multipress combo whatevers. So it's not unheard of. I like the idea mainly because I keep trying to use Ganon u-tilt as an anti-air move despite knowing it's just a bad idea.

Wario's f-tilt is chargeable, that would be pretty neat for Ganon u-tilt. No charge could be the current tilt, and it could transition to the old one through charging.

Also, yeah. What rumors?

 

[Bazkip]

Snake and Meta Knights f-tilts are multipress combo whatevers. So it's not unheard of. I like the idea mainly because I keep trying to use Ganon u-tilt as an anti-air move despite knowing it's just a bad idea.

Wario's f-tilt is chargeable, that would be pretty neat for Ganon u-tilt. No charge could be the current tilt, and it could transition to the old one through charging.

Also, yeah. What rumors?

Huh, I had no idea any of those things worked like that. Thanks for the info.

 

[Fedex]

Huh, I had no idea any of those things worked like that. Thanks for the info.

Right now utilt has a wierd hitbox on the up kick that can sometimes reset like a jab reset but the down stomp doesnt come down fast enough to connect consistently in the that situation....also if someone DI's well enough the up hit will actually hit them in towards ganons body and make him miss all together...

Making it two button would allow less punishment on those whiffs


Backroom is def playing around with diff roll animation options...air movement options....projectile defensive options...like i said just rumors and nothing is solid....im sure they are just ideas in alpha stage testing....i just figured i would voice a few smaller adjustments i think would make a big diff.....i like dsmash being two press as well....

Right now a high level ganon vs a high level diddy/mario/zelda/mewtwo has no chance unless he punishes a whiff or tech mistake...and even then ur options are limited to chain grabs and a single hard punish or medium punishes before the enemy is too far away to continue pressure


Again...just my opinion...

 

[CORY]

The new ganon update rumors have me a bit worried....He is already a big target and it seems the team is addressing problems that ganon users dont even complain about....

Backroom is def playing around with diff roll animation options...air movement options....projectile defensive options...like i said just rumors and nothing is solid....im sure they are just ideas in alpha stage testing....i just figured i would voice a few smaller adjustments i think would make a big diff.....i like dsmash being two press as well...

so, out of those, air movement options and projectile defense options are things that would help with his problems, and are things that get complaints (the air movement not directly, but it could address his neutral/projectile game).

his utilt and dsmash, on the other hand, don't get many complaints, at least not in the terms you speak of. dsmash's biggest complaint is that it doesn't link its hits well at all, so it's inconsistent as to how you would follow it up. having it be a multi input move could fix that, but so could just making the hits link together properly. and utilt is still pretty much an alpha/beta move. it's better than the old utilt, but it still needs a little bit of tweaking, as its purpose is pretty much still "go for a hard read, get a kill". in that sense, i suppose a double input could work for it (or a charge, ala wario ftilt) but that move doesn't get many complaints, overall.

 

[teluoborg]

Agreeing with the 2 parts Utilt thing, that could be pretty useful.

 

[Prince Longstrok]

A jab reset with the first part of upilt would look silly.. likes hes basically throwing his crotch into your face without doing anything else afterwards with his foot.

Actually when I say it like that, it makes me want it.

o:!..

 

[X WaNtEd X]

op need i remind you the puff was once a low tier in melee? and that game never had betas.

 

[Spralwers]

I would actually love a double part utilt. There's a hit box on his crotch, so I think at close range, it would actually hit short characters. It has long active hit boxes (frames 3-12) and it would actually end 7 frames sooner than jab. It would be a really nice alternative to jab at super close range I think.

 

[BladeOFLucas]

I literally just started playing Ganon last night. And I can tell you this:

His bread & butter is Air Flame choke -> Utilt when opponent is at 60-70%. You will (with 98% assurance) KO the opponent. And you will hear satisfaction in their pain scream.

No, I main ganon, and that is certainly not his bread and butter. That is just one of his many noob sweeps. Although, short of WDing you can use a well timed grounded flame choke to ledgehog decently.