Any Merit to recovering backwards?

[DarkMist]

Normally when you recover as marth, you use a conjunction of a SB, DJ, DB and Up B to recover, all facing forwards. In the meantime you can DB stall and swat people away with Fair, sometimes throwing in a counter.

What i havent read or heard much on is recovering facing backwards while offstage. Is it worth incorporating into ones game as a viable recovering strategy, use as an occasional mixup, or simply just tend to avoid altogether?

I ask mainly because ive been experimenting it with friends, and it surprisingly seems to work rather well. Does anyone have any opinions and comments to this? Ive been working with it for a while, and heres my view on it atm:

=> Pretty much pointless without your second jump, Recovering forward in this case does everything better

=> DB turnaround when not used to stall is usually not expected, and tends to throw off their ledgeguard or offstage attack timing and spacing

=> You trade out your Fair for Bair. While it has less coverage, it covers your top and outward a bit better with a bit more reach. Most opponents, especially when your near stage-level and beginning to drift below are coming from above. Perfect. Bair also has a lot more power, and will knock them plenty far enough away for safe recovery if you hit (lag though is a bit worse than a fair). Plus, it can really threaten a strong stage-spike in certain situations.

=> DJ Dair becomes a viable method of attack. Now that we are backwards, we dont need to get overtop of our opponents to spike, the smallest hitbox is on the other side. It covers all the spots Bair doesnt, beside and underneath. As a plus, we get to use the side with the best horizontal spacing and easiest to tipper with (i think it reaches almost as far horizontal as a Fair?). Opponents that are below or beside us are in very real danger of a spike. We get to DJ to space it out as well, and time it with their jumps.

=> You can mindgame it to feign going for a Bair or spike, and just turn back around hitting with DB, gaining back all your normal frontal recovery options, best done if you can hit them with it, but a good mindgame nontheless, (just dont forget about actually recovering to the stage)

=> DS can be used as usual.

=> Opponents dont expect it. They really dont. And it causes more mess-ups on their end than you think.

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I have counter-spiked other characters numerous times from their own spike attempts and/or ledge attacks. Same with stage-spiking with the Bair or just the usual batting them away. Ive even pulled off a turnaround DB to spike, quite flashy. A very good falco i play on a regular basis often does not even attempt to edgeguard me with more than a couple lasers when i turn backwards on a regular basis, especially after he goes for a spike and i time my DJ with his and outspace his spike, sending him to oblivion (or just outspace his Bair with mine). I basically get a lot more free returns (or ones with very little resistance) when their normally all gung ho about gimping me.

I dont do it everytime, and never when i dont have my second jump (front is always better here). At the very least, its a nice recovery mindgame

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Thoughts, opinions?

 

[feardragon64]

I do this every so often when I'm up against a ranged melee character(if I remember to anyways)(cough cough mk). And instead of using your DB(what was it bengalz, DBS1?) to turn around(which generally, you should only be using when you need to stall as you'll loose all of your momentum. Instead of using DB to turn around, if you have time just use Bair. You'll basically turn around, but bair has some after lag that you'll have to deal with.

Plus, if it gets air dodged or you just whiff it, you're screwed since you're stuck there with your sword extending out and they're moving right on top of you for a spike or something humiliating like that.

Tactic to use, not to abuse.

MOST importantly

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=188570

 

[DarkMist]

mmm, forgot about the Bair turnaround. Although the first DBS1 is nice because of the momentum stall, it causes a lot of people to whiff an attack or try to readjust if timed well, plus, you will still get your horizontal boost after your DJ, or gain another full stall after your DJ and wait a bit. i find it more useful than turning around with Bair personally in a lot of cases.

Whiffing a Fair or having it dodged in a lot of cases can result in the same thing.

Also, i WAS thinking of posting it there, but i didnt know if it qualified as a quick question answer thing. It seems like a good mindgame and tactic for a slightly deeper discussion. Its a tactic i rarely ever see any marth use in most matches i watch. Could be something worth attempting to incorporate into ones game more often

 

[feardragon64]

There's no horizontal boost from DBS1 anymore. That was melee.
It's only a stall. There's a vertical boost from it at the top of a jump but you completely loose horizontal momentum. Horizontal recovery is what Marth lacks anyways.

 

[DarkMist]

oops, i meant vertical. Only running on 4 hours of sleep doesnt help things

And yeah, he does, but most often he doesnt need it. If you do, you arent going to be sacrificing your momentum with this anyway. If im too far back and low, where i need my second jump to make it within DS distance, you dont use this, because this is useless with your second jump eaten up.

Basically, the momentum stall is used when you can afford it, which is pretty much anytime you can mixup a backwards recovery. Bair works too, not saying it shouldnt be used lol xD

 

[3xSwords]

To turn around always use bair instead of DB, First strike DB will always screw you over. With Marth you want as much momentum possible, so yeah if you are going to do it use bair.

 

[DarkMist]

alright, makes sense.

While this thread is here, i have another question.

While hanging on the edge, is using DBS1 the opposite way to detach from the ledge, dropping and doing a DJ Bair through the lip of the stage to hit the enemy ledgeguarding near the ledge a good mixup? Has anyone ever tried applying it yet? You can space it so it hits enemies right at the edge of the stage.....or jump into the lip and Bair through it, getting some surprising horizontal coverage while not in any real danger of being hit this way.

Ofc, you wouldnt do this if the enemy was right at the edge, the DBS1 stalls a bit before you fall, so your open during that time. *shrugs* Marths ledge recovering options kinda suck, and any mixups help. Thoughts?

 

[3xSwords]

DBS1 does not stall at all when you just ledge drop, you drop like a dead weight seriously it sux when you don't use a jump to get that vertical boost.

Its a decent mixup, it will serve your purpose of varying your ledge game. However, during this maneuver you will be extremely vulnerable from above, be aware that at any time anybody with a decent spike could just SH the bair, FF and spike you to your death.

 

[DarkMist]

No, I meant when your hanging on the ledge, the ONLY input you give is a reversed DBS1. He just does turns around and does his red swing, stalling at ledge level before falling. It has ending lag, but doing a DJ immediately after you can go under the lip and Bair, (if they are farther from the ledge) or pull back a bit and Bair so the tip goes over the stage edge.

Whats cool is that when you DBS1 and stall at ledge height, often your opponent reacts to it, giving you time to read what he will try to do, and thus influence what you will try for. If you think your in danger, rather than Bair, just DS back to the edge for the sweet spot.

The key is to not do the reversed DSB1 from the ledge when you are in range of a quick attack....you will get screwed xD