[Answered] Learning Roy..

[Ju-Fu]

Some tips tricks and advice would really help out..from what I'm learning I feel like Roy needs his space and isn't a stand still character I feel like his roll is actually good but I hate rolling so I won't even use it... being an Ike main I feel like I lack range with Roy is this normal for him? I have been playing as Roy for about 3 weeks now and I am still unfamiliar with this character

 

[Fatmanonice]

Moved thread to the appropriate board.

 

[Eggggggggggbert]

Roy is a thing of beauty. He is fast yet he has a really nice weight to him giving him a very specific level of friction with the ground. The most important thing when changing characters, especially with one like Roy, is to operate him around stages until you're incredibly comfortable. Learning to short hop with him, playing with his speed and recovery, and quickly transitioning with platforms develops this comfort. His range is a little short, but you need to use this agility to your advantage to make up for it. Short hop nair (as it is on many characters) is a great tool, its practically the bread and butter. It's short, auto cancels(I'm assuming purely because Marth's does usually), covers a large radius in front and behind and its one of his greatest tools for approaching. It also combos well into other aerials and can create easy juggles other of grabs. Compensating for the range is key when making a transitioning like this.
Rolling is a good tool, but Its one of the most predictably applications of movement in the game. People who see you roll will learn to punish it. Its good to roll occasionally, its a simple get away. But its also important to explore his options (use that speed!) of running, pivoting, etc.
Luckily the heavy reads that you'd do with Ike's still exist with Roy. That neutral b is a force to be reckoned with by all means. Also, the spikes function very similarly so that should definitely stress getting comfortable with his jump height so you can develop that skill set too.

Try to be a bit more specific with asking for Roy tips, I don't mind helping.

 

[Ju-Fu]

Roy is a thing of beauty. He is fast yet he has a really nice weight to him giving him a very specific level of friction with the ground. The most important thing when changing characters, especially with one like Roy, is to operate him around stages until you're incredibly comfortable. Learning to short hop with him, playing with his speed and recovery, and quickly transitioning with platforms develops this comfort. His range is a little short, but you need to use this agility to your advantage to make up for it. Short hop nair (as it is on many characters) is a great tool, its practically the bread and butter. It's short, auto cancels(I'm assuming purely because Marth's does usually), covers a large radius in front and behind and its one of his greatest tools for approaching. It also combos well into other aerials and can create easy juggles other of grabs. Compensating for the range is key when making a transitioning like this.
Rolling is a good tool, but Its one of the most predictably applications of movement in the game. People who see you roll will learn to punish it. Its good to roll occasionally, its a simple get away. But its also important to explore his options (use that speed!) of running, pivoting, etc.
Luckily the heavy reads that you'd do with Ike's still exist with Roy. That neutral b is a force to be reckoned with by all means. Also, the spikes function very similarly so that should definitely stress getting comfortable with his jump height so you can develop that skill set too.

Try to be a bit more specific with asking for Roy tips, I don't mind helping.

This really helped out alot thanks a bunch dude ^^;

 

[Ju-Fu]

Moved thread to the appropriate board.

Which is where I'm new to smashboards

 

[Ryusei the Falling Star]

Ike main here as well. I feel like Roy is about dominance and pressure. His range is definitely short in comparison to Ike's. It is said that one should play him like a brawler since his smashes sweet spot at his sword's hilt. Use his speed and maneuverability to position yourself to get that low-percent kill. I've found that the dThrow into upB works surprisingly consitently into the early and later percents on the majority of characters I've fought so far. Though, so some do manage to DI out of it. As big mama stated, his SH Nairs and nB are good staples. The ending recovery off the nB is so short; I think Zero goes off stage with it to catch opponents. This is good because the nB has such a big hitbox.

If you have a good Little Mac player in your group, he is very good opponent to learn how to fight to learn Roy with. Little Mac is very quick and unforgiving and makes you learn what your spacing should be. Usually we'll do 50-stocks FD and no time limit. That way it takes away the pressure to win and then it becomes more about learning.

I hope I helped and hopefully made some sense.

 

[Ju-Fu]

Ike main here as well. I feel like Roy is about dominance and pressure. His range is definitely short in comparison to Ike's. It is said that one should play him like a brawler since his smashes sweet spot at his sword's hilt. Use his speed and maneuverability to position yourself to get that low-percent kill. I've found that the dThrow into upB works surprisingly consitently into the early and later percents on the majority of characters I've fought so far. Though, so some do manage to DI out of it. As big mama stated, his SH Nairs and nB are good staples. The ending recovery off the nB is so short; I think Zero goes off stage with it to catch opponents. This is good because the nB has such a big hitbox.

If you have a good Little Mac player in your group, he is very good opponent to learn how to fight to learn Roy with. Little Mac is very quick and unforgiving and makes you learn what your spacing should be. Usually we'll do 50-stocks FD and no time limit. That way it takes away the pressure to win and then it becomes more about learning.

I hope I helped and hopefully made some sense.

It absolutely helped! Thank you guys so much I hope I can get the ropes of Roy because I like to main characters that doesn't have to work hard for a kill and Roy is def in my range

 

[Eggggggggggbert]

Also, more about his recovery. A lot of people complain that its "objectively worse" then Marth's (and Lucina's for that matter) due to its slower pace and its lack of horizontal and vertical distance. But once again, there are things you can do to compensate for those downfalls. It's an amazing offensive tool. In a situation where you're recovering from not too far from the stage, it can punish lolligaggers who sit on the edge waiting for an guarding opportunity. It is a good OoS option like Mario's up B for some free percent and is a pretty darn good stage spiker.
It's important that you learn to gauge your recoveries though. Practice getting to the stage, buffering your side Bs (not going into sword dance) and sweet spotting them up Bs.
Also with his resistance to the ground and his speed, practice sliding into moves and pivot related moves. My personal favourite (almost BM) move is getting someone on a platform above on BF with a slide into up smash.
I'm sort of spewing information at this point but Roy is super cool.

 

[Ju-Fu]

Also, more about his recovery. A lot of people complain that its "objectively worse" then Marth's (and Lucina's for that matter) due to its slower pace and its lack of horizontal and vertical distance. But once again, there are things you can do to compensate for those downfalls. It's an amazing offensive tool. In a situation where you're recovering from not too far from the stage, it can punish lolligaggers who sit on the edge waiting for an guarding opportunity. It is a good OoS option like Mario's up B for some free percent and is a pretty darn good stage spiker.
It's important that you learn to gauge your recoveries though. Practice getting to the stage, buffering your side Bs (not going into sword dance) and sweet spotting them up Bs.
Also with his resistance to the ground and his speed, practice sliding into moves and pivot related moves. My personal favourite (almost BM) move is getting someone on a platform above on BF with a slide into up smash.
I'm sort of spewing information at this point but Roy is super cool.

Yes I agree Roy's up b Oos is one of my fav moves because of the armor Roy is definitely one of my favorites to use thanks dude!

 

[ConsummateK]

Fellow Roy newbie. I've played enough to know I'm really bad lol. I believe I'm 1-12 on Anthers as of yesterday afternoon. It's all good though, as I do see small steps of progress here and there. Would it be reasonable to list his bread and butter mechanics that I should be able to check-off as having mastered?

I'm thinking of things like fox trotting, short hopping etc. I honestly still don't know what I don't know. Part of me doesn't want to hear the answer because I think it's going to lead to hours worth of trying to get stuff down in the training room...but if that's what it takes to level up then that's what it takes.

 

[Eggggggggggbert]

Fellow Roy newbie. I've played enough to know I'm really bad lol. I believe I'm 1-12 on Anthers as of yesterday afternoon. It's all good though, as I do see small steps of progress here and there. Would it be reasonable to list his bread and butter mechanics that I should be able to check-off as having mastered?

I'm thinking of things like fox trotting, short hopping etc. I honestly still don't know what I don't know. Part of me doesn't want to hear the answer because I think it's going to lead to hours worth of trying to get stuff down in the training room...but if that's what it takes to level up then that's what it takes.

Beyond what has been previously mentioned that should be focused on which you've also touched upon (short hops, movement options, etc), you need to focus on spacing. A number of characters are spacing focused, but I really feel that the swordsman spacing is sort of a dying art. With more and more characters either being very ranged (allowing for great extremely spaced options) or very close range (requiring very precise approaches). Roy has this middle ground where he is in a sense short range (the most so out of himself, Marth, Luciana and I suppose Ike) but his moveset allows him outrange short range characters while chasing down distanced ones with easy. Become very aware of operating yourself in a way that utilizes your own range while trying to overcome their's. Staying close to ranged characters make them uncomfortable and staying far from close range characters make them uncomfortable. Roy slides into this middle ground and can achieve a number of punishments if you play smart. (I'm going to edit this chunk when I have more time, I'm not explaining it too well)

One of the most important things within smash 4 competitive I feel like is a sort of rock paper scissors mindset. In previous games there was so many more advanced techniques and movement options that you could dedicate a lot of time to those in order to imrpove your play and outskill the other player. This game has a way more focused meta that can be played strictly in terms of the trading nature of attack grab shield (which is what I mean by rock paper scissors). If you spend more time understand these trades and seeing consistencies in your opponents play, you can begin overcoming them but using the winning option. If they're aggressive a lot and never grab (scissors), shield their attacks (rock) and utilize your out of shield options (you can up b, grab, crouch poke, etc) . If they're grabbing a lot (paper), bate their grabs (with a dash dance or spacing) and punish with hard hitting moves (your scissors which could be a charged smash, b neutral, etc). I'm being specific, but I cannot stress how overlooked this simple idealization is with modern players.

 

[ConsummateK]

Thanks! This is really good insight. I think part of me was starting to understand how important spacing is because when I do well it's because I'm where I want to be in relation to my opponent. I play a Capt. Falcon last night about 10 times and by the 6-7 round I was winning because I was being more patient and controlling the spacing instead of trying to rush him down.

If it's not too much to ask, could you provide a list of spacing movements/skills? I can google tutorials myself, but I'm not even sure of all of the terminology/techniques that are out there. Finally, is the best way to hone these skills just rote practice in training until you've got muscle memory? That sounds really boring, but hey, sometimes training is...and I'm willing to bet with those techniques down I would be WAY better.

 

[Eggggggggggbert]

Thanks! This is really good insight. I think part of me was starting to understand how important spacing is because when I do well it's because I'm where I want to be in relation to my opponent. I play a Capt. Falcon last night about 10 times and by the 6-7 round I was winning because I was being more patient and controlling the spacing instead of trying to rush him down.

If it's not too much to ask, could you provide a list of spacing movements/skills? I can google tutorials myself, but I'm not even sure of all of the terminology/techniques that are out there. Finally, is the best way to hone these skills just rote practice in training until you've got muscle memory? That sounds really boring, but hey, sometimes training is...and I'm willing to bet with those techniques down I would be WAY better.

Keep in mind that in training, I believe that rage does not come into play. Therefore some of your combo work/juggling may differ in that game mode compared to real game. Do not be afraid to beat up on low level CPUs. It shouldn't be the entirety of your practice because you can pick up bad habits from fighting CPUs, but from a testing/developping habits perspective, its helpful.

I cannot stress how good Roy's(/Marth's/Lucina's) neutral air is. It is especially good with Roy due to his weight and fast fall, allowing the move to be one of the best approach tools of all characters. The best part about it is that even if your use of it is predictable, its not an easy move to punish. Short hopping this move on approach allows a large forward hitbox to catch them, a reasonable back hitbox which can cover rolls towards you and when fast falling this move, I believe it'll autocancel when you hit the ground. Therefore, if they shield this approach, you can quickly go into a grab. It's fast, it covers so much room and creates a lot of opportunities. It can be used to start combos, it can be used to continue them as it has more range than the up air and hence can catch falling enemies better for the juggle and it be used to end combos (although this isn't the best option, they need ridiculous percents). There is no move that is more bread nor more butter than this move. I also would say this probably has the most range of any of his attacks. All of this is of course flowing from personal experience, it is just one of my favourite things from learning Roy through just playing.

Another step you should take is to try to get your hands on actual frame/hitbox data regarding your moves to understand their realistic effectiveness. This is often a difficult concept for newer players to move into and it isn't an easy thing to dig up for Smash 4 (due to it being so new) but its extremely helpful to your playstyle. It won't seem relevant at first, but trying your best to put it into context really makes you understand what moves rise above the rest. The footwork in the spreadsheets and pastebins will save you from a lot more work in the actual game.

I'm at work right now and can't pull anything up for you specifically but I hope that helps.

 

[ConsummateK]

Keep in mind that in training, I believe that rage does not come into play. Therefore some of your combo work/juggling may differ in that game mode compared to real game. Do not be afraid to beat up on low level CPUs. It shouldn't be the entirety of your practice because you can pick up bad habits from fighting CPUs, but from a testing/developping habits perspective, its helpful.

I cannot stress how good Roy's(/Marth's/Lucina's) neutral air is. It is especially good with Roy due to his weight and fast fall, allowing the move to be one of the best approach tools of all characters. The best part about it is that even if your use of it is predictable, its not an easy move to punish. Short hopping this move on approach allows a large forward hitbox to catch them, a reasonable back hitbox which can cover rolls towards you and when fast falling this move, I believe it'll autocancel when you hit the ground. Therefore, if they shield this approach, you can quickly go into a grab. It's fast, it covers so much room and creates a lot of opportunities. It can be used to start combos, it can be used to continue them as it has more range than the up air and hence can catch falling enemies better for the juggle and it be used to end combos (although this isn't the best option, they need ridiculous percents). There is no move that is more bread nor more butter than this move. I also would say this probably has the most range of any of his attacks. All of this is of course flowing from personal experience, it is just one of my favourite things from learning Roy through just playing.

Another step you should take is to try to get your hands on actual frame/hitbox data regarding your moves to understand their realistic effectiveness. This is often a difficult concept for newer players to move into and it isn't an easy thing to dig up for Smash 4 (due to it being so new) but its extremely helpful to your playstyle. It won't seem relevant at first, but trying your best to put it into context really makes you understand what moves rise above the rest. The footwork in the spreadsheets and pastebins will save you from a lot more work in the actual game.

I'm at work right now and can't pull anything up for you specifically but I hope that helps.

Yeah it definitely does. Honestly at this point I'm not even sure I'm short hopping correctly. So it's those kind of fundamentals (along with understanding what the right decisions are for different situations) that I think will really help.

 

[Guineapig126]

I really feel the need to hop in for a second here and say that that "Rock Paper Scisors" analogy is genious. It makes competitive Smash 4 seem so simple.

 

[Eggggggggggbert]

I really feel the need to hop in for a second here and say that that "Rock Paper Scisors" analogy is genious. It makes competitive Smash 4 seem so simple.

I don't mean to simplify it too much but I think its a basis of competitive that is overlooked.
I picked up on it when researching a specific melee player who dedicated all of his play to this mindset and achieved really fantastic results despite utilizing very little technical skill. He ignored all the fancy stuff and centered himself on positioning and sought to always win these 3 choice interactions by searching for consistencies. When smash 4 came out and it appear that it had been somewhat neutered with a number of these complicated movement options no longer applicable, I realized this mindset was what the reality of the meta came down to. FYI the player was named Borp and you don't need to be a melee god to see how simple, yet effective what he's doing is.

(some of the stuff he does is him just goofing around, but there is footage to represent my point in here)

Also practicing short hops to aerial to fast fall should be priority. Make sure you can do it 50-75 percent of the time. In Melee (sorry that I keep referring to it, it is my game of choice usually), it legitimizes a number of characters who otherwise don't have many approaching options. It's important to be consistent at it.

 

[Ryusei the Falling Star]

I love that ledge thing he does to make the opponent not grab the ledge.