Animal Rights

[Caturdayz]

I am sure this has already been discussed but from what I have seen there has no board like this one in a good while.

So I begin:

Mankind has been living off of the other creatures of this Earth since the dawn of man about 200,000 years ago. This was necessary for survival, death was imminent without the sustenance, however barbaric it was. Now, lets fast forward to 2008; Man is still eating meat but now with the aid of a torture chamber known as a Factory Farm and another abomination known as Fast Food, I will leave that as it is for I am certain that we will get there.

Not only is eating meat cruel for the animals it is dangerous to your health.

Increased risk of ovarian and breast cancer for women and an increased chance of prostate cancer in men.

The number one killer in America is the infamous Heart Attack.

Risk for average "carnivore": 15 percent
Risk for average Vegan: 4 percent

Now on to Natural Resources,

Amount of water to produce one pound of wheat: 25 gallons
Amount of water to produce one pound of meat: 2,500 gallons

Percentage of fossil fuel energy returned as food energy by most efficient factory farming of meat: 34.5 percent
Percentage returned as food energy from least efficient plant food: 328%

Calories of fossil fuel expended to get 1 calorie of protein from beef: 78
To get 1 calorie of protein from soybeans: 2

Or if you care about people...

Number of people worldwide who will die as a result of malnutrition this year: 20 million
Number of people who could be adequately fed using land freed if Americans reduced their intake of meat by 10%: 100 million

~http://www.vegsource.com/how_to_win.htm

Now to Animal Testing...

We have been using animals as test subjects for years despite the fact that the results of tests done on them may not even be useful when applied to a human.

The amount of cruelty that animals have to bare before their pitiful life is eventually ended is ridiculous. For examples Look Here or Here.

I would like to here your arguments for...

Eating Meat

Any excuses for Animal Testing

Your opinions on the use of animals in entertainment

Or anything else regarding Animal Rights you would like to add.

 

[JesiahTEG]

I'm not so sure I have an opinion on animal rights, however when it comes to eating meat...

It is what it is, survival of the fittest. Natural selection. We are the superior race, and we do what we need to succeed.

 

[forboxgux]

Mankind has been living off of the other creatures of this Earth since the dawn of man about 200,000 years ago. This was necessary for survival, death was imminent without the sustenance, however barbaric it was

It's not barbaric. In fact, early hominids fed on dead carcases they found rather than hunted. It helped increase human brain power as well. We sort of owe human intelligence to animals.

Not only is eating meat cruel for the animals it is dangerous to your health.

Increased risk of ovarian and breast cancer for women and an increased chance of prostate cancer in men.

Prove that. With actual medical links, and not PETA links. Peta distorts science and lies more than American (false) Christians.

The number one killer in America is the infamous Heart Attack.

Risk for average "carnivore": 15 percent
Risk for average Vegan: 4 percent

Proof...?

Amount of water to produce one pound of wheat: 25 gallons
Amount of water to produce one pound of meat: 2,500 gallons

Wrong!


As Maddox said on this a long time ago:

Fun with facts: vegetarians love to boast outrageous figures like "it takes 5,000 gallons of water to produce one pound of beef and only 20 gallons to produce one pound of wheat." I've heard figures ranging from 2,000 to 5,000, and vegetarians will be ****ed if they include a source so we'll take the mean (that means "average") and go with 3,500. The average person consumes 1.5 million gallons of water every year (it takes water to grow and produce the food you eat in addition to the water you drink, quit emailing me you morons). Why isn't PETA protesting overpopulation of humans on the street corners? Why isn't PETA passing out free condoms or throwing javelins in your **** when you walk down the street if they really cared about water consumption? It's not like that water just suddenly disappears. The earth has had about the same amount of water for 2 billion years. So if a pound of beef takes 3,500 gallons of water, what difference does it make? How many vegetarians drive a car? To make a car (including tires), it takes about 40,000 gallons of fresh water. That's not including the gas it takes to run the car, the electricity to run the gas station, the water used to create the boat that brought your precious oil, the water used to create the pavement you drive on, the destruction of toxic chemicals that went into creating your clothes, and the electricity you use every day to send me stupid emails over the internet. Every year you are directly responsible for the consumption of billions of gallons of water. There are 26 million people suffering preventable brain damage from iodine deficiency, and another 1.5 billion people at risk. Nevermind that, you have animals to save. By driving your cars, you pump billions of tons of poison into the atmosphere and you're slowly killing us all. The computer you use requires 250 watts of electricity, let alone the billions of computers required to keep you on the internet. All consuming energy. All contributing to pollution. Let's just ignore those minor hypocrisies. Someone wants to enjoy a burger and you'll be ****ed if you're going to let them.


http://maddox.xmission.com/hatemail.cgi

We have been using animals as test subjects for years despite the fact that the results of tests done on them may not even be useful when applied to a human.

Who says that? All of human public health care relies on animal testing.

 

[Crimson King]

Yea, there is absolutely no chance I'll stop eating meat, and I really see no argument to change my mind.

 

[IWontGetOverTheDam]

Eating meat isn't necessarily bad for your health. It provides many necessary nutrients such as protein, zinc, vitiman B12, and iron. As for animal testing, it all really depends. It's not necessarily "ethical" to shave dogs, stop their hearts and test pacemakers on them, but you'll be happy they did when it saves your father's life.

There is no absolute right and wrong for any situation.

 

[gringo66]

if we are not to eat meat, then what are we going to eat to provide nutrients? i believe that most animals if not all, were put on this planet so that they can be eaten.

 

[JesiahTEG]

Well, although I'm not sure what, I'm pretty sure there are other things we could eat that would provide the same amount of nutrients...Doesn't mean I'm not going to eat meat though.

 

[gringo66]

well yes there probably are other vitamins and and pills that could probably replace the nutrients in meat. however its very inconvinient for me and all other meat eaters to stop eating meat and change to a different alternative. Im not 100% sure if hominids did eat off dead carcases. (they probably did.) however, the reason why they lived and evolved to become cro magnons, was because they hunted and ate animals. I do believe that game hunting is wrong and unethical. but I dont think that theres anything wrong with hunting animals and eating them to survive.

 

[Sandy]

Animal Rights is something that should be respected. Precisely, they feel pain, happiness, and everything, they just can't tell us directly what they feel.

We are animals too, we just have better methods to do everything.

 

[Surri-Sama]

This reminds me of the Catholic movement...let me tell you lies so i can trick you into doign thigns i want you too, augh leave me alone, i eat chicken, go preach about animal cruilty to a Fox who eats meat, if you can change a foxes mind verbaly ill stop

 

[Caturdayz]

Ok Forbox you're banned so I am not sure I really need to prove myself to you but....

It's not barbaric. In fact, early hominids fed on dead carcases they found rather than hunted. It helped increase human brain power as well. We sort of owe human intelligence to animals.

Prove it.*

Prove that. With actual medical links, and not PETA links. Peta distorts science and lies more than American (false) Christians.

Prove It*

* This Asterisk denotes sarcasm
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Ok you get the idea... Forbox the idea of debate is not to say "proof?" to everything someone says I have my sources if you can prove my sources wrong with your sources be my guest... but do not just say "Prove It"

____

Crimson, I do not think I will be able to change your minds, I just wanted to present an argument for Animal Rights and I wanted to hear intelligent responses for the other side.

____
Iwon'tgetoverthedam:

Eating meat isn't necessarily bad for your health. It provides many necessary nutrients such as protein, zinc, vitiman B12, and iron. As for animal testing, it all really depends. It's not necessarily "ethical" to shave dogs, stop their hearts and test pacemakers on them, but you'll be happy they did when it saves your father's life.

You can find those things in many non-meat items.

Protein: Nuts of anykind
Zinc: whole grains and soy products
Vitamin B12: fortified cereal or Vegan Vitamin Supplements
Iron: dried figs and prunes, dark-green leafy greens, legumes

What is stopping you from testing it on humans? Why are we better than them?

One of the most common arguments for animal testing is that they are not intelligent. However it has been proven that primates are often more intelligent than the mentally ********... Using that logic why don't we test on the mentally ********? I am NOT saying that we should test on *******, but take it as you will.
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Sandtiger, I am glad I finally agree with you on SOMETHING.

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Sirhc, Foxes need meat to survive. Their body NEEDS it as they were never intended to be herbivores, as humans are, supported by Man's dental record.

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Gringo, Yes there are

 

[cheifrocka]

I will eat meat because I chose too and it's legal.

There is nothing stopping me from doing so. I am the dominant species on the planet. A bunch of skewed statistics and vegetarian propaganda won't be changing that fact.

 

[Keitaro]

I myself simply can't live without meat. At times I even call myself a meatatarion seriously.

Although eating so much meat may not be good for me I go by the thinking of that I only live once. So while I'm living I'm not going to suffer eating vegis and fruits all the time cause then I'll feel as if I'm missing out on life. Even if we stop becoming carnivorous, all the other animals that are will continue to be so I don't see the point in stopping when everyone else isn't. Kind of a bad analogy but it sides my point.

 

[IceEmblem]

We eat meat because its a necesity, you want to know why people who are carnivores get more heart attacks, becuase there obese, how many obese vegetarians do you see, there is a fine line between eating fast food and eating meat. Fast food is bad for you not meat! Also meat is needed to be strong and healthy, and gives us Protien and Iron. It's not cruel to eat animals, whats cruel is keeping one in a cage for 5 weeks, and only feeding it 1/2 a cup of food a day, untill it dies, what they do to cows is put them to sleep, no pain involved.
In my eyes, people who are vegetarians, clearly are mentally unstable.

P.S. some of the stuff you said was so funny, i put it in my sig.

 

[Mic_128]

What is stopping you from testing it on humans? Why are we better than them?

One of the most common arguments for animal testing is that they are not intelligent. However it has been proven that primates are often more intelligent than the mentally ********... Using that logic why don't we test on the mentally ********? I am NOT saying that we should test on *******, but take it as you will.

While I don't like Animal Testing, I know it's something important that needs to be done, as performing tests on a handful of mice is a lot better than just grabbing 10 people from random off the street. Fact is, animals are easier to get a hold of (good luck asking parents to let you have a pile of children to test some experiments out on that you don't know how it'll react) and the loss of a mouse, or even a dog is simply less interuptive to a family's life. No one will miss a dog from a shelter that was going to be put down, but for the medical tests needed, they need healthy people, and no one healthy is going to volunteer for a procedure, like testing original pacemakers.

Though just because it's neccessary, doesn't mean they should be mistreated while there (ie, tiny cages, crap food, ect) and testing for frivilous things like makeup is barbaric.

Same goes with Battery farms.

 

[Sandy]

There is no reason to treat animals badly, despite what we do with them, care for them as pets, ignore them as wild creatures or eat them as food. I personally do not like the whole concept or practice of battery farming, I think it's cruel and uncaring...

I am a meat eater, and if I had to, I would kill an animal to feed myself... but I would not abuse it for pleasure, nor would I make it suffer any longer then needs be. There is no point to it, to making an animal suffer...

However such behaviour can not be related to being a trait of just man-kind. That is being cruel to other creatures, Killer Whales for example often brutalise baby seals if they can catch them, attacking them with their tails and flipping them around for around 45 minutes... before they finish with the cub what probably died after about 20 minutes...

Animals can also attack their competitors over resources, but be brutal over that, whilst they will not feed on the competitor as they don't feed or meat or something... they may take a liking to hurting them...

I am for Animal Rights to the extent of them not being abused and not being hurt more then necessary but I am still a meat eater and enjoy to eat meat.

 

[Caturdayz]

I will eat meat because I chose too and it's legal.

There is nothing stopping me from doing so. I am the dominant species on the planet. A bunch of skewed statistics and vegetarian propaganda won't be changing that fact.

No point wasting my time arguing with you.

__

Although eating so much meat may not be good for me I go by the thinking of that I only live once. So while I'm living I'm not going to suffer eating vegis and fruits all the time cause then I'll feel as if I'm missing out on life. Even if we stop becoming carnivorous, all the other animals that are will continue to be so I don't see the point in stopping when everyone else isn't. Kind of a bad analogy but it sides my point.

Well, if you only live once why would you want to cut a single second of your life? And if you beleive eating some veggies is suffering I am seriously sorry for you. Men eat far more meat than any other carnivore on the planet and the difference is they are hunting a creature that has lived, atleast for the most part, a full life. Factory Farmed animals spend their entire life on a factory farm... until the day they die.

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We eat meat because its a necesity, you want to know why people who are carnivores get more heart attacks, becuase there obese, how many obese vegetarians do you see, there is a fine line between eating fast food and eating meat. Fast food is bad for you not meat! Also meat is needed to be strong and healthy, and gives us Protien and Iron. It's not cruel to eat animals, whats cruel is keeping one in a cage for 5 weeks, and only feeding it 1/2 a cup of food a day, untill it dies, what they do to cows is put them to sleep, no pain involved.
In my eyes, people who are vegetarians, clearly are mentally unstable.

P.S. some of the stuff you said was so funny, i put it in my sig.

You my friend are a fool. Meat is not a necessity as you can see through my last post everything you can get in meat you can get in more healthy alternatives. There are very few obese vegetarians... BECAUSE THEY DON'T EAT MEAT. While I agree fast food is worse than normal meat its all disgusting. If you seriously beleive they just euthanize cows you are a fool. Did you miss the massive nation wide meat recall where they rammed lame cows with forklifts. Check out: www.meat.org

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While I don't like Animal Testing, I know it's something important that needs to be done, as performing tests on a handful of mice is a lot better than just grabbing 10 people from random off the street. Fact is, animals are easier to get a hold of (good luck asking parents to let you have a pile of children to test some experiments out on that you don't know how it'll react) and the loss of a mouse, or even a dog is simply less interuptive to a family's life. No one will miss a dog from a shelter that was going to be put down, but for the medical tests needed, they need healthy people, and no one healthy is going to volunteer for a procedure, like testing original pacemakers.

Though just because it's neccessary, doesn't mean they should be mistreated while there (ie, tiny cages, crap food, ect) and testing for frivilous things like makeup is barbaric.

Same goes with Battery farms.

There are alternatives... Including test tube studies on human tissue cultures, statistics and computer models.

 

[Surri-Sama]

Sirhc, Foxes need meat to survive. Their body NEEDS it as they were never intended to be herbivores, as humans are, supported by Man's dental record.

oh no, thats only our dental record for the past say 3000-4000 years, we evolved to lose your fangs and such but we definitely did have the jaws to say we eat meat, and a fox could be given vitamins to help his body cope with the lose of meat, i just don't think the fox would like that.

There are very few obese vegetarians... BECAUSE THEY DON'T EAT MEAT.

And this is just totally bias, i think that if you eat rationally EVEN MEAT you can avoid obesity, i did, and i eat meat!

 

[Caturdayz]

oh no, thats only our dental record for the past say 3000-4000 years, we evolved to lose your fangs and such but we definitely did have the jaws to say we eat meat, and a fox could be given vitamins to help his body cope with the lose of meat, i just don't think the fox would like that.

That is a fair statement, however by your logic we should have stopped eating meat 3000-4000 years ago. And you are also comparing us to foxes whose brain is not yet evolved enough to understand what he is doing wrong.

 

[Surri-Sama]

That is a fair statement, however by your logic we should have stopped eating meat 3000-4000 years ago. And you are also comparing us to foxes whose brain is not yet evolved enough to understand what he is doing wrong.

Naw my point with the Fox thing is that in nature, beings eat meat, and its definitely not cruel, but Vegans and such have now singled us out and are trying to make us seem BETTER then everything else even more then we already do, personally if i was to try to do something active when it comes to Animal Rights, id try to get us humans back on a plain where we are = to other beings in terms of deaths and habitat

Ex

1 Human = 1 Dog

not

1 human > 1 fox

solely based of what we and how we eat :\

 

[Caturdayz]

Not exactly... I don't seem myself as better than a fox but it is a fact the brain of a man is more developed than that of a fox.

I find myself equal with all the animals of the world.

1 human = 1 pig

Not

1 human > 1 Pig

Same for foxes. Also PETA and ALF have been fighting an up hill battle to get the UK to ban fox hunting. So if you really see us as equal to foxes go do something about that Animal Rights issue.

 

[Surri-Sama]

Not exactly... I don't seem myself as better than a fox but it is a fact the brain of a man is more developed than that of a fox.

I find myself equal with all the animals of the world.

1 human = 1 pig

Not

1 human > 1 Pig

Same for foxes. Also PETA and ALF have been fighting an up hill battle to get the UK to ban fox hunting. So if you really see us as equal to foxes go do something about that Animal Rights issue.

I think your avoiding what i say by pushing me into a totally different direction, but i am not personally going to join a war right now that nothing is actually being done about :|

 

[Caturdayz]

What did I avoid? I am not trying to push you in another direction. I addressed every clear point in your last post.

 

[Surri-Sama]

Ok well i am not sure what i meant xD

My point is we shouldn't have to be Judged because we eat meat (and you cant say your not honestly) saying its cruel to animals is almost an insult to someone who cares for animals, but regardless i've said all my points and views, so a respect your opinion and i am finished this debate unless theres something important you need to say?

 

[snex]

You can find those things in many non-meat items.

Protein: Nuts of anykind
Zinc: whole grains and soy products
Vitamin B12: fortified cereal or Vegan Vitamin Supplements
Iron: dried figs and prunes, dark-green leafy greens, legumes

and this is exactly why your "statistics" - even if they are correct numbers - given in the OP are bogus. you cant simply compare "1 pound of beef" with "1 pound of plant matter" when you can get ALL of those nutrients you need from that 1 pound of beef, but have to get them from various plants. that 1 pound of beef only needs to take up 1 ranch, but for that 1 pound of plant matter youre talking about several farms that need to be dispersed over a wide area where the individual plants can actually grow. so now, instead of one ranch in texas shipping meat all over the place, you need a nut farm in georgia shipping nuts, a soy farm in iowa shipping soy, a grain farm in nebraska shipping grain, and a fig farm in TURKEY shipping figs. the overhead from this far outweighs the amount required just to ship the beef.

furthermore, youre now going to have to pay extra to get all of those things, when you could have just spent $5 on one steak (which i did last night and it was oh so good!). its simply not feasible for low income families to live on a vegetarian diet.

 

[Caturdayz]

and this is exactly why your "statistics" - even if they are correct numbers - given in the OP are bogus. you cant simply compare "1 pound of beef" with "1 pound of plant matter" when you can get ALL of those nutrients you need from that 1 pound of beef, but have to get them from various plants. that 1 pound of beef only needs to take up 1 ranch, but for that 1 pound of plant matter youre talking about several farms that need to be dispersed over a wide area where the individual plants can actually grow. so now, instead of one ranch in texas shipping meat all over the place, you need a nut farm in georgia shipping nuts, a soy farm in iowa shipping soy, a grain farm in nebraska shipping grain, and a fig farm in TURKEY shipping figs. the overhead from this far outweighs the amount required just to ship the beef.

furthermore, youre now going to have to pay extra to get all of those things, when you could have just spent $5 on one steak (which i did last night and it was oh so good!). its simply not feasible for low income families to live on a vegetarian diet.

The majority of that grain from Nebraska is going to feed your cows so you can go get that 1 pound of beef. Soy is one of the most plentiful ingredients around go ahead and look for yourself, its in EVERYTHING. Anyway all this means is that these ingredients and their respective factories are in abundance anyway. Also we would be able to help low income families if America just cut their meat consumption by a little bit. We would then have an excess of grain, corn et cetera because we are not giving almost all of it to plump up animals.

And just as a side-note: 5 dollars? Must have been a bad steak...

 

[Surri-Sama]

furthermore, youre now going to have to pay extra to get all of those things, when you could have just spent $5 on one steak (which i did last night and it was oh so good!). its simply not feasible for low income families to live on a vegetarian diet.

Why can i never actually leave when i say i do?

Anyhow this just is not true, my family is definitly not High income, and we supposrt my Sisters Vegan food demands quite easily, there are thigns like "Meatless Bacon" and it doesnt cost any more then normal bacon, same with Ham, and my personal favorite oximoron, Meatless Meatballs

 

[starcock]

To respond to your statement, I don't see it as cruel. It isn't mindless slaughtering of animals for no reason, it has been done for survival over the years and is no different now. In the animal kingdom, animals themselves are more cruel among one another, they do this to survive aswell, it is only nature and what are we all but animals ourselves. I will continue to enjoy my meat.

 

[snex]

The majority of that grain from Nebraska is going to feed your cows so you can go get that 1 pound of beef. Soy is one of the most plentiful ingredients around go ahead and look for yourself, its in EVERYTHING. Anyway all this means is that these ingredients and their respective factories are in abundance anyway. Also we would be able to help low income families if America just cut their meat consumption by a little bit. We would then have an excess of grain, corn et cetera because we are not giving almost all of it to plump up animals.

And just as a side-note: 5 dollars? Must have been a bad steak...

actually it was a great steak.. sirloin. the cheaper cuts tend to be the tastier ones, which is something any butcher will tell you.

anyway, the majority of that grain goes to feed animals is because it isnt fit for human consumption. if you raised that grain to the standards required by the FDA, youre now going to have to use EVEN MORE resources. youll probably end up completely razing most usable farmland in a few decades.

by the way, cows eat GRASS, which is utterly useless to humans as food. so the amount of "wasted" resources to raise cows? very little.

 

[Surri-Sama]

actually it was a great steak.. sirloin. the cheaper cuts tend to be the tastier ones, which is something any butcher will tell you.

anyway, the majority of that grain goes to feed animals is because it isnt fit for human consumption. if you raised that grain to the standards required by the FDA, youre now going to have to use EVEN MORE resources. youll probably end up completely razing most usable farmland in a few decades.

by the way, cows eat GRASS, which is utterly useless to humans as food. so the amount of "wasted" resources to raise cows? very little.

Im not sure this is really a valid point (i know he used it too but i argued it then and ill do it again now) because you could say the same thing about Synthetic materials they cost more to make but they work better, Vegi foods are definitly better FOR you which makes it easyer to manage a healthy life style, but its not the only way, theres reasons for both, what i want to stop is "Eat meat die early" bs or "eating meat makes baby jesus cry" >_>

 

[Caturdayz]

Im not sure this is really a valid point (i know he used it too but i argued it then and ill do it again now) because you could say the same thing about Synthetic materials they cost more to make but they work better, Vegi foods are definitly better FOR you which makes it easyer to manage a healthy life style, but its not the only way, theres reasons for both, what i want to stop is "Eat meat die early" bs or "eating meat makes baby jesus cry" >_>

Fine the aforementioned arguments shall no longer be used. I would never use the second argument however being agnostic... And I am not doubting it is possible to eat a healthy meat eating lifestyle.

__

actually it was a great steak.. sirloin. the cheaper cuts tend to be the tastier ones, which is something any butcher will tell you.

anyway, the majority of that grain goes to feed animals is because it isnt fit for human consumption. if you raised that grain to the standards required by the FDA, youre now going to have to use EVEN MORE resources. youll probably end up completely razing most usable farmland in a few decades.

by the way, cows eat GRASS, which is utterly useless to humans as food. so the amount of "wasted" resources to raise cows? very little.

This is a fair statement. However, there is no way that we are going to raze all available farm land in a few decades, that isn't realistic. Also, I am not saying to make more grain actually quite the opposite. Regardless if the grain is not fit for human consumption it is still taking up farmland to produce. We would be using LESS grain. So we would now be freeing up land used for both grain farming and factory meat farming.

__

To respond to your statement, I don't see it as cruel. It isn't mindless slaughtering of animals for no reason, it has been done for survival over the years and is no different now. In the animal kingdom, animals themselves are more cruel among one another, they do this to survive aswell, it is only nature and what are we all but animals ourselves. I will continue to enjoy my meat.

Alright, even most meat-eaters can admit it is cruel.

The way I see it if livestock were allowed to live full lives of relative happiness and THEN slaughtered this would be slightly different. Man has been eating meat for thousands of years but there was a balance. About 12,000 years ago we were hunting mammoths... This was still cruel however it was justified in a few ways.

1. The mammoths were hunted. Meaning at one time they were wild and free living their lives like all creatures should be allowed to.

2. It was necessary for survival. It no longer is.

3. The effort of actually hunting may have counteracted the unhealthy practice of eating meat.

Ok again to animals eat animals argument, I hear it all the time. There are a couple of ways to approach it and it is still one of the most difficult arguments to field... but here it goes.

The argument seems to stem from the fact that we are the stronger of all species on the planet. Admittedly this appears to be true. However according to this philosophy we should be able to eat the senile, the ********, and the children. They are weaker than us right? So go ahead and chow down on [your name here] Jr.

Ok lets say an invasive force from another planet comes to Earth. They are far superior to us in almost every way imaginable. They should be able to treat us however they like before eventually killing us right?

Pagan Rome persecuted Christians, murdered at gladiatorial events, beaten if found praying Et cetera. This was ok... right? I mean the Romans were stronger.
__

Umm keep the arguments coming... I was hoping their would be SOMEONE in the Debate Hall to help me defend Animal Rights XD

 

[starcock]

Fine the aforementioned arguments shall no longer be used. I would never use the second argument however being agnostic... And I am not doubting it is possible to eat a healthy meat eating lifestyle.

__



This is a fair statement. However, there is no way that we are going to raze all available farm land in a few decades, that isn't realistic. Also, I am not saying to make more grain actually quite the opposite. Regardless if the grain is not fit for human consumption it is still taking up farmland to produce. We would be using LESS grain. So we would now be freeing up land used for both grain farming and factory meat farming.

__



Alright, even most meat-eaters can admit it is cruel.

The way I see it if livestock were allowed to live full lives of relative happiness and THEN slaughtered this would be slightly different. Man has been eating meat for thousands of years but there was a balance. About 12,000 years ago we were hunting mammoths... This was still cruel however it was justified in a few ways.

1. The mammoths were hunted. Meaning at one time they were wild and free living their lives like all creatures should be allowed to.

2. It was necessary for survival. It no longer is.

3. The effort of actually hunting may have counteracted the unhealthy practice of eating meat.

Ok again to animals eat animals argument, I hear it all the time. There are a couple of ways to approach it and it is still one of the most difficult arguments to field... but here it goes.

The argument seems to stem from the fact that we are the stronger of all species on the planet. Admittedly this appears to be true. However according to this philosophy we should be able to eat the senile, the ********, and the children. They are weaker than us right? So go ahead and chow down on [your name here] Jr.

Ok lets say an invasive force from another planet comes to Earth. They are far superior to us in almost every way imaginable. They should be able to treat us however they like before eventually killing us right?

Pagan Rome persecuted Christians, murdered at gladiatorial events, beaten if found praying Et cetera. This was ok... right? I mean the Romans were stronger.
__

Umm keep the arguments coming... I was hoping their would be SOMEONE in the Debate Hall to help me defend Animal Rights XD

I suppose you rather us hunt these animals with spears and so on so it can be a fair fight between mammals? Not exactly fair at all, animals are made with all kinds of deadly weapons that can kill a human with very little effort but we have our own methods given to us, we build weapons and so on.

I guess I see your point about it being cruel, to actually raise these animals for the purpose of death to fill your burger, the problem of waiting until the animal is old to slaughter it is disease and lack of supplies. If we didn't take care of the animals and left them all lose, instead of raising them and so on, they would probably die out much faster in more cruel ways that you can imagine.

They will be interfering with humans by running into cars, going near dangerous material; getting themselves killed and being killed by humans if threatened since they will be free. There is to many of us to feed, atleast this is organized, there is no real way around it that won't cause problems and it is still better than the latter.

The problem with your alien story is, they weren't part of the earth to begin with and would interfer with the balance set up since the beginning of time. Humans are complex beings, that is more complicated than a random cow, we comunicate, have stronger feelings and do not act out of instincts. I doubt a hungry lion will spare your life because it is cruel, no, it will eat you and the cow while you are still alive if needed.

Do you not think killing insects and rats is cruel? they are living things, just because they are ugly and annoying, doesn't mean a thing. They get killed for no reason, most don't eat them and yet they still get killed on sight without a thought. Also, to add to that, I think you wouldn't hesitate on frying up a nice fish to feast on, correct me if I am wrong but fish is also living and could be seen as cruel. Everything is cruel. Once again, we can not raise animals to be at the end of their life spans, the meat will be bad and not nearly as good. Would people buy old wrinkleed meat? not really.

The only thing I agree with is, people over do it the slaughtering just to have an extra burger to fill their gut when in reality, we don't need as much so we do mess up the balance. I guess we could cut it down but then that will run into even more problems.

 

[Caturdayz]

I suppose you rather us hunt these animals with spears and so on so it can be a fair fight between mammals? Not exactly fair at all, animals are made with all kinds of deadly weapons that can kill a human with very little effort but we have our own methods given to us, we build weapons and so on.

I guess I see your point about it being cruel, to actually raise these animals for the purpose of death to fill your burger, the problem of waiting until the animal is old to slaughter it is disease and lack of supplies. If we didn't take care of the animals and left them all lose, instead of raising them and so on, they would probably die out much faster in more cruel ways that you can imagine.

They will be interfering with humans by running into cars, going near dangerous material; getting themselves killed and being killed by humans if threatened since they will be free. There is to many of us to feed, atleast this is organized, there is no real way around it that won't cause problems and it is still better than the latter.

The problem with your alien story is, they weren't part of the earth to begin with and would interfer with the balance set up since the beginning of time. Humans are complex beings, that is more complicated than a random cow, we comunicate, have stronger feelings and do not act out of instincts. I doubt a hungry lion will spare your life because it is cruel, no, it will eat you and the cow while you are still alive if needed.

Do you not think killing insects and rats is cruel? they are living things, just because they are ugly and annoying, doesn't mean a thing. They get killed for no reason, most don't eat them and yet they still get killed on sight without a thought. Also, to add to that, I think you wouldn't hesitate on frying up a nice fish to feast on, correct me if I am wrong but fish is also living and could be seen as cruel. Everything is cruel. Once again, we can not raise animals to be at the end of their life spans, the meat will be bad and not nearly as good. Would people buy old wrinkleed meat? not really.

The only thing I agree with is, people over do it the slaughtering just to have an extra burger to fill their gut when in reality, we don't need as much so we do mess up the balance. I guess we could cut it down but then that will run into even more problems.

The massive hole in that logic is that we overpopulated the animals for our own use. And we are not just gonna drive them 20 miles away and drop every pig cow and chicken out in the woods. And AGAIN you are comparing us to animals. You cannot have it both ways. You want to see us as both better than other animals but we are better than animals so we are allowed to kill them. And again, I am not saying to raise them to the end of their lifespans... The way their life is now, the sooner they die the better. I wouldn't dream of eating a fish... I am vegan XD

 

[starcock]

The massive hole in that logic is that we overpopulated the animals for our own use. And we are not just gonna drive them 20 miles away and drop every pig cow and chicken out in the woods. And AGAIN you are comparing us to animals. You cannot have it both ways. You want to see us as both better than other animals but we are better than animals so we are allowed to kill them. And again, I am not saying to raise them to the end of their lifespans... The way their life is now, the sooner they die the better. I wouldn't dream of eating a fish... I am vegan XD

So you are saying Humans and animals should have equal rights and that we are not better than them? When was the last time you seen a cow in the class room? or a moose renting a apartment, no, it is silly to think of them as our equals and aslong as it isn't senseless slaughter for no reason, I don't see the problem with eating them because they would do the same to us. Oh and by the way, fish isn't meat by definition, and veggies do eat that. I won't even get to the part where you didn't counter 50% or higher of my post.

 

[Caturdayz]

So you are saying Humans and animals should have equal rights and that we are not better than them? When was the last time you seen a cow in the class room? or a moose renting a apartment, no, it is silly to think of them as our equals and aslong as it isn't senseless slaughter for no reason, I don't see the problem with eating them because they would do the same to us. Oh and by the way, fish isn't meat by definition, and veggies do eat that. I won't even get to the part where you didn't counter 50% or higher of my post.

Correction pescatarians eat fish... Its time for a vegetarian BREAKDOWN

Lacto-Ovo Vegetarian: Eats milk, eggs, honey. NO meat, fish
Lacto Vegetrian: Eats milk, honey. NO eggs, meat, fish
Ovo Vegetraian: Eats eggs, honey. NO milk, meat, fish
Pescatarian: Eats fish, eggs, honey, milk. NO meat
Vegan: NO fish, eggs, honey, meat or milk.

There are various others such as Macrobiotic and Raw Vegan diets.

_

I see little reason to battle your previous points, as we would just continue to argue in circles forever.

 

[Sandy]

I could very much kill my own pet chicken to survive, if I need the meat that is. But I would not put it through more torture then is necessary for it. It's about being respectful of another's life, no matter what state it takes.

What you seem to be going on however is something that doesn't work, because there are those that would kill other humans in terrible and horrific ways, simply because they are not given limitations and told how to do things in humane ways. Is there any reason why these people should be able to kill others in this way... because to them, it's a different race, an inferior race being the Chinese. They could simply see them as being an inferior type of human, but does that work in your book of how things are done?

 

[starcock]

Correction pescatarians eat fish... Its time for a vegetarian BREAKDOWN

Lacto-Ovo Vegetarian: Eats milk, eggs, honey. NO meat, fish
Lacto Vegetrian: Eats milk, honey. NO eggs, meat, fish
Ovo Vegetraian: Eats eggs, honey. NO milk, meat, fish
Pescatarian: Eats fish, eggs, honey, milk. NO meat
Vegan: NO fish, eggs, honey, meat or milk.

There are various others such as Macrobiotic and Raw Vegan diets.

_

I see little reason to battle your previous points, as we would just continue to argue in circles forever.

Oh ok, sorry about putting them all in one group. Could go in circles yes, will stop soon but what are your views on killing insects and rodents? Also, plants are living aswell, what do you think of that? Does alive vary on what looks cute?
Are you suggesting that we all not kill animals for food? or you deciding for everyone when and how it is ok to do this? without realizing how much it can affect everything else.

I could very much kill my own pet chicken to survive, if I need the meat that is. But I would not put it through more torture then is necessary for it. It's about being respectful of another's life, no matter what state it takes.

What you seem to be going on however is something that doesn't work, because there are those that would kill other humans in terrible and horrific ways, simply because they are not given limitations and told how to do things in humane ways. Is there any reason why these people should be able to kill others in this way... because to them, it's a different race, an inferior race being the Chinese. They could simply see them as being an inferior type of human, but does that work in your book of how things are done?

Not sure who you are addressing at but Humans have evolved to a point where they have conscience and more sense than an animal that is all about insticnt. Also, human requirments to survive today, is needed alot more "stuff from animals" than animals that need very few requirments in the food department to survive. I also ask you, what about the people that pretty much gag or can't eat "non animals like plants and fruits", I bet they should starve and die so they don't be cruel.

 

[Caturdayz]

Starcock my issues with meat are founded on the inhumane way that the animals are slaughtered not the fact that they are slaughtered. I disagree with it, I will never eat meat but I could accept meat-eating if it was a done in a humane way... This does not include "stunning" animals before you slit their throats... I appreciate that this is done but it is not efficient.

Second I view rodents and insects as living things. Especially rodents. I care about the wellbeing of insects however I am a little more forgiving of honey-farming (although I disapprove) than I am of vivisection on all types of animals including rodents.

Third, Plants cannot feel pain/fear/ et cetera and they are allowed to live a relatively similar life to the one they would have lived under natural conditions. Sure they are given growth solution and what not but they are not couped up their entire life. Plants in all reality are not living in the same way we are. However I am glad they made their sacrifice for my survival.

 

[starcock]

Starcock my issues with meat are founded on the inhumane way that the animals are slaughtered not the fact that they are slaughtered. I disagree with it, I will never eat meat but I could accept meat-eating if it was a done in a humane way... This does not include "stunning" animals before you slit their throats... I appreciate that this is done but it is not efficient.

Second I view rodents and insects as living things. Especially rodents. I care about the wellbeing of insects however I am a little more forgiving of honey-farming (although I disapprove) than I am of vivisection on all types of animals including rodents.

Third, Plants cannot feel pain/fear/ et cetera and they are allowed to live a relatively similar life to the one they would have lived under natural conditions. Sure they are given growth solution and what not but they are not couped up their entire life. Plants in all reality are not living in the same way we are. However I am glad they made their sacrifice for my survival.

OK, this is more clear, I wasn't sure the exact stand you were making. I don't think all places torture the animal and then slit its throat. I read up on most methods that don't seem cruel, I mean, killing is always the end result, not many options on what people will not see as cruel that won't be expensive, like putting them all to sleep like dogs. Anyhow, I see your point and you are not one of those people who said, meat is evil, should not kill to eat.

Plants don't feel pain? Well, we don't know if they do, because they don't express it doesn't mean they don't feel anything, we are not the plant so we will never know. You can kill anyone, even humans without making them feel pain. The only thing that saves you is the part where you added fear. Plants don't look scared, can't be proven that they do not feel scared but I will give you that one.

 

[Caturdayz]

You see the only problem with your plants can feel pain/scared argument is this...

We know that pain is felt via the nervous system, which the plant lacks. Fear is found in the amygdala, which plants again... lack.