An idea for heavies.

[GHNeko]

Okay. We all know that heavies generally are characters with slow, but hard hitting attacks.

The problem with this that they exist in a game in which speed and combos are dominant.

Heavies are naturally behind because of this.

Recently, we've started using hitbox mod codes to increase the size of heavies attacks (bowser and ganon) in order to help them manage.

We have wanted to speed up their moves, but the issue in doing that is that they lose a weakness to being a heavy (ie slow attacks)

We dont want that, but without a method to beat out speedy characters without prediction and punishment, the heavies have issues.

So I have a few ideas that I think would help.

1. Have their hitboxes come out a few frames sooner (think ganon jab). What this would do is allow the move to have the same amount of frames in total. ie Bowser jab is 30 frames. Hits on 5. Hitbox is out til 20. Move it so that it hits on frame 2 - 4 and the hitbox is out til 15-17.
2. Extend the length of their hitboxes. bowser jab til frame 30. Hits on 5, but lasts til 25.
3. Push out their hitboxes further. If I recall correctly, we have the ability to move hitboxes slightly. So give them a drop of the snake treatment. Heavies are slow, so sometimes they dont have the speed to catch up to something that was whiff and what not. Extend the hitbox further out and away from the hurtbox and let them be slightly disjointed. They're heavies after all. I'm sure they swing so hard the wind at least knocks you of your feet.
4. Giving all heavies some sort of pressure relief tool and OOS options. Face it. Heavies get pressured. Giving them at least one ground move and one aerial move to use to relieve pressure would help out their defensive game 10 fold while retaining their weaknesses (besides having issues dealing with pressure. That would be weakened.)

Mix these ideas together with hitbox size, damage buff, and KB Buffs, and we have a comfy variety of ways to buff heavies without detracting from their play styles. :3

What I think would be most important is having the moves come out sooner while keeping the overall length of the move, as it's a speed up, but not a speed up, if you get what I mean.

What are your guys thoughts.

 

[shanus]

idont think any heavies really need any more besides the list we have :O

 

[GHNeko]

iunno. It seems like heavies still are outclassed by the rest of the cast. :V

Some of the heavies feel like they deserve things of that list. DK and Bowser could use a frame 1 or 2 nair for string breakers.

Ganon could have a hitbox or two still out longer.

Heavies seem to lack that ability to get far in a tourney, besides Snake, and maybe DI.

 

[JCaesar]

DK doesn't need anything. He's the best heavy by far right now imo. He has tons of power and most of his moves come out fast as hell, and he's got guaranteed throw kill combos under 100 on most of the cast. He's perfect just how he is.

Snake is probably OK too but I personally feel like he's lacking.

Charizard and DDD (again, imo from what I've seen and played) are in the middle somewhere but they really don't need any help, but Bowser and Ganon are still near the bottom and could use something.

 

[GHNeko]

Nooo way D3 is in the middle. He's deff below charizard in needing something. He needs a GREAT grab game at the moment cuz now he just spams Dair and what not, trying to be a light character.

Tbh, I want to give Bowser a good gtfo (string breaker move) on the ground and mid air. His nair barely has a use, so having it come out on frame 2 would be excellent.

Ftilt and jab could use a snippet of snake magic too. Jab coming out early.

Ganon is already getting some disjointedness ie bair and fair.

I'm not 100% sure what D3 could use though.

 

[shanus]

Bowser has fortress as a pressure relief. If we want to buff him more i can PM DJNintendo

D3 is awesome. Turbo and TUSM have dirty DDDs

Ganon just requires good spacing. I bet if we got him in the hands of someone like koskinator or inui (with enouhh practice) we would see a diff opinion on him

 

[GHNeko]

Bowser has fortress as a pressure relief. If we want to buff him more i can PM DJNintendo

D3 is awesome. Turbo and TUSM have dirty DDDs

Ganon just requires good spacing. I bet if we got him in the hands of someone like koskinator or inui (with enouhh practice) we would see a diff opinion on him

Bowser has ground relief. I mentioned aerial relief.

Eh. I dont think he's anything above mid of mid tier material.

As for ganon, probably, but I see strats with about every character above ganon that would easily make him need more.

 

[goodoldganon]

Bowser has fortress as a pressure relief. If we want to buff him more i can PM DJNintendo

D3 is awesome. Turbo and TUSM have dirty DDDs

Ganon just requires good spacing. I bet if we got him in the hands of someone like koskinator or inui (with enouhh practice) we would see a diff opinion on him

D ick. Thanks for the vote of confidence...

Ganon is good right now and if we can ever figure out how to give him follow ups on the side-b he'd be golden.

I agree that D3 is at least lame. D-air spam is dumb and not really that fun too me, but people like him and it works so w/e.

Silven thinks Ike is fine after the two tweaks (didn't even really want the two before but w/e)

Snake and DK are both very good, underrated characters. Snake is still easily top tier.

Bowser is...well... I don't play as him so that's up to the others to decide.

So in summary:

Ganon: Guaranteed side-b follow ups and he is in the clear

D3: He's lame, but fine

Ike: Fine

DK: Fine

Snake: Fine

Bowser: ???

 

[shanus]

Its not meant as offense, its more like people require someone as a big name to get this stigma out of there that ganon sucks. I honestly agree with you that he is good now, and I'd kill for some new vids of him. For instance, Silven and the NYC crew thinks he sucks, yet he openly admits NYC doesnt play as ganon. Thats why I want a well-known ganon player to play him because ego>all or for you to post some new vids! Get to the rapin, GoG :-)

I agree with you on everything else

 

[goodoldganon]

Its not meant as offense, its more like people require someone as a big name to get this stigma out of there that ganon sucks. I honestly agree with you that he is good now, and I'd kill for some new vids of him. For instance, Silven and the NYC crew thinks he sucks, yet he openly admits NYC doesnt play as ganon. Thats why I want a well-known ganon player to play him because ego>all or for you to post some new vids! Get to the rapin, GoG :-)

I agree with you on everything else

Someone needs to come visit me in lonely old Dayton so I can freshen up. I feel like I'm getting rusty

 

[GHNeko]

Well, only time will tell about the heavies. I personally feel they are still outclassed, but maybe that's just me.

 

[CT Chia]

This was pretty much a problem in early forms of Brawl+, but as it is now I don't think heavies per say really need this additional change, theyr kind of amazing as it is.
Most of them also have combos as it is. They just aren't like other character's combos. Most combos in the game are like 5-6 hits while heavie's combos might be like 2-3 hits, but they end in a much stronger attack.

 

[GHNeko]

Maybe its just the characters I use. Marth and Mario generally have movesets that put heavies in thier place.

 

[Shell]

Let's just feel out this current round of tweaks. If any heavies are still a touch lacking, I'd like to decrease the stun their shields take, if we could ever get a code for this. This would preserve their easy to juggle quality, but provide them with a good tool for holding the neutral / standoff mode.

 

[GHNeko]

Have you guys ever though of raising BKB on heavies and lowering KBG so that their attacks are less punishable on shield? :V

 

[JCaesar]

D3 is awesome. Turbo and TUSM have dirty DDDs

That's pretty much what I meant concerning DDD. He's already been proven to be tourney viable at 2 major B+ tourneys.

If he needs anything, I would argue for a larger hitbox on nair, since it's currently smaller than his body. He has the best grab in the game (next to Olimar) and very high damage throws, so I'd be weary of improving his combo options out of throws.

 

[Revven]

Yeahhhh just from Bthrow alone he deals 16%... >.>

 

[GHNeko]

To be honest, I'd rather buff this throw game than his combo game. He should have the kind of throws that kill at 120% with GOOD DI at the edge of D3.

He's about grabs. Not combos. :V


Uair should suck in till the last hit though. You cant KILL with Uair, even with bad DI they manage to pop out. Dair is easy as hell to DI as well, making Dair combos hard to actually connect unless you're fighting a fatty ie heavy.

 

[JCaesar]

DDD has never had killing throws though. Even in vBrawl his throws couldn't actually kill till over 200% with good DI. (In fact I remember a vBrawl crew battle from a long time ago, my ROB vs Candy's DDD, he was only grabbing me, CGing me to the edge of FD, and fthrowing over and over, and I lived to 284)

Plus improving his grab game is only going to encourage shieldcamping even more.

But I guess all of this is moot until we get the code to modify throws anyways.

 

[GHNeko]

The thing is though, that's D3. He has great grab game potential. I want to give him a game based of what he's good in. That grab range doesn't count for much when he only has character specifc follow ups, and his tech chasing game, imo, is blah.