An analysis of what'd happen to Brawl with the top two banned.

[LancerStaff]

I am by no means an expert at Brawl. But I am curious what'd happen to the tier list if the top two are banned. I will be basing this entirely on the matchup list.

Character's new matchup list

Totals/Avg.
50/+1.4
37/+1.0
46/+1.3
40/+1.1
48/+1.3
41/+1.1
15/+0.4
25/+0.7
17/+0.4
-89/-2.5

I did the high tiers and anybody who I thought could have interesting changes. I'll do requests for characters, and if this gets enough interest, I'll do the rest and put this into a tier list of sorts.

First thing I noticed was how high Olimar is lol. Might have to redo the list with him gone too...

 

[Jackson]

Yeah, Olimar would be annoying, not that he isn't already.

 

[Djent]

WTB Pikachu

Also, ICs don't need to be banned b/c of the stages you can reintroduce w/ MK gone.

 

[LancerStaff]

WTB Pikachu

Also, ICs don't need to be banned b/c of the stages you can reintroduce w/ MK gone.

Meh. There's never been a single stage that's been unbaned though.

 

[LiteralGrill]

WTB Pikachu

Also, ICs don't need to be banned b/c of the stages you can reintroduce w/ MK gone.

But would people actually reintroduce those stages? Every stage banned "cuz MK" has had other reasons made to ban the stage so we don't "officially" ban them for MK

 

[Osennecho]

But would people actually reintroduce those stages? Every stage banned "cuz MK" has had other reasons made to ban the stage so we don't "officially" ban them for MK

Which is the BS excuse. They should/would be unbanned imo. There's NOTHING wrong with RC for example. Nothing, literally nothing on that stage is random. It's a set pattern every-time. People are just too lazy to learn it/it really really really helps MK.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Being fair Cruise and Brinstar do favor certain characters pretty strongly, like polarizingly mute city in melee strong.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Which is the BS excuse. They should/would be unbanned imo. There's NOTHING wrong with RC for example. Nothing, literally nothing on that stage is random. It's a set pattern every-time. People are just too lazy to learn it/it really really really helps MK.

Being fair Cruise and Brinstar do favor certain characters pretty strongly, like polarizingly mute city in melee strong.

I have to agree with Red Ryu on that. Still, something like that could be cured by striking from the list of legal stages so those characters wouldn't really end up playing there.

 

[Osennecho]

Being fair Final Destination and Halberd do favor certain characters pretty strongly, like polarizingly mute city in melee strong.

^See what I did there? It goes that way for every single stage. That's why counter-picks and bans exist as Capps said. Obviously RC wouldn't be a neutral though. It's legal at all of the MK banned tournaments in the south I think. It's honestly a question of do I feel like learning the pattern, strengths, and weakness of this stage, or am I too lazy? Furthermore the characters it really helps are mostly worse characters and the one's it harms are the better ones.

 

[tekkie]

MK < (no one)
ICs < snake, TL, ROB
oli < ICs, falco
diddy < falco, snake, ICs

you could make a chart like that

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

^See what I did there? It goes that way for every single stage. That's why counter-picks and bans exist as Capps said. Obviously RC wouldn't be a neutral though. It's legal at all of the MK banned tournaments in the south I think. It's honestly a question of do I feel like learning the pattern, strengths, and weakness of this stage, or am I too lazy? Furthermore the characters it really helps are mostly worse characters and the one's it harms are the better ones.

It's not as bad as cruise and brinstar.

There is no problem with characters having good stages, not if it super polarizes MUs.

FD really doesn't do it to that degree and neither is Halberd. People will learn those stages down to a T if they are legal.

It's that when people learn it, certain characters will a lot harder.

 

[Aidebit]

The matchup list isn't completely true at some points, I disagree with it a lot.

Also, the matchup list was made with an MK-Legal mindset, therefore, the strongest CP's against Olimar and IC's are banned.

But thanks, the data from this is quite interesting.

 

[link2702]

you don't have to ban both.

all you have to do is ban metaknight, and go back to the old ruleset.


Ice climbers wouldn't do near as good as they do now if it wasn't for all the ridiculous stage list changes the community had to make to attempt to nerf metaknight and keep him legal, the changes had the unintentional side effect of buffing the ice climbers.

 

[lordvaati]

Which is the BS excuse. They should/would be unbanned imo. There's NOTHING wrong with RC for example. Nothing, literally nothing on that stage is random. It's a set pattern every-time. People are just too lazy to learn it/it really really really helps MK.

If it was Melee cruise, I would agree.

Brawl Cruise however as an issue with them changing the donuts to solids allowing for easier gimping/free kills, a weird transitioning glitch with some characters( like the Wario Bike thing), and DeDeDe being able to infinite on the bridge.

 

[nat pagle]

^See what I did there? It goes that way for every single stage. That's why counter-picks and bans exist as Capps said. Obviously RC wouldn't be a neutral though. It's legal at all of the MK banned tournaments in the south I think. It's honestly a question of do I feel like learning the pattern, strengths, and weakness of this stage, or am I too lazy? Furthermore the characters it really helps are mostly worse characters and the one's it harms are the better ones.

RC gives way too much advantage to certain chars though, way past what FD could ever do. It doesn't matter if it helps the low tiers, because if it helps a low tier but still hurts other low tiers, what did you gain? You just made half the cast a garbage pick.

 

[Osennecho]

RC gives way too much advantage to certain chars though, way past what FD could ever do. It doesn't matter if it helps the low tiers, because if it helps a low tier but still hurts other low tiers, what did you gain? You just made half the cast a garbage pick.

Except FD vs ICs and a few characters who become drastically better with platforms.... Also RC hardly nerfs half the cast. It nerfs way way way less than half the cast. If you actually think that I don't know what to say. You'd think it'd be bad for all tether characters right? Wrong. It's actually a really good stage for ZSS. You'd think it would nerf Ike right? Except it doesn't. Ryo for example loves that stage. He uses it to his advantage. Granted it nerfs ICs, Olimar, and a couple others, but they can just ban the stage. Also, it's called a counter-pick for a reason. Just because you are bad on a stage and don't want to learn it or the other stages cater to high tiers more doesn't mean a different stage is bad. You simply need to change your play style to fit the stage in the same way you have to change your play style for certain match ups like when playing against ICs.

Also, I'm inclined to agree with Lord regarding the "donuts," but I disagree with Wario's bike and DDD's infinite being an issue. I mean you can infinite with DDD on parts of PKS depending on the transformation already and the only reason it might be a problem regarding Wario is it'd be a strong stage for him already. Considering none of the other stages really favor Wario though I'd just ban this one and play Marth vs him like I normally would. GG GR to reverse tipper.

 

[mimgrim]

Granted it nerfs Olimar but they can just ban the stage.

It really doesn't nerf Olimar that much, if at all, unless against Mk but that goes for any character going against MK on RC basically. It's really more of an even stage from what I have been able to see it be played on when Olimars got taken there when it was legal.

 

[LiteralGrill]

You aren't supposed to ban stages unless they are broken anyways, I think RC would just legal unless someone here can prove it's actually a broken stage even if it makes some fights harder.

 

[nat pagle]

You aren't supposed to ban stages unless they are broken anyways, I think RC would just legal unless someone here can prove it's actually a broken stage even if it makes some fights harder.

http://www.ssbwiki.com/Rainbow_Cruise

Ungrabbable ledges, disappearing platforms, and requires a lot of aerial speed.

 

[LiteralGrill]

http://www.ssbwiki.com/Rainbow_Cruise

Ungrabbable ledges, disappearing platforms, and requires a lot of aerial speed.

I asked for proof it was broken, not it's traits. Besides I'll trust the wiki on stage legality when it's actually updated and tells the truth about all of it.

 

[nat pagle]

I asked for proof it was broken, not it's traits. Besides I'll trust the wiki on stage legality when it's actually updated and tells the truth about all of it.

What constitutes a broken stage then?

 

[LiteralGrill]

What constitutes a broken stage then?

To me, I'd take a look at Sirlin (but I bet you've read it before) and see how he discusses what must be banned. Honestly skewing some matchups isn't enough, hard data showing it causes serious inconsistencies in results would. The latter doesn't exist to my knowledge, and when such data was being painstakingly taken you'll see Smashville actually had a higher MK win rate then RC and Brinstar. Odd right?