Am I the only one disappointed with Swordfighter's A attacks?

[smashbrolink]

Just a small gripe thread; I've been playing as the Mii Swordfighter for a bit now, and no matter what I try I simply cannot get over how bad many of its A attacks are, especially compared to Link, my main.

Below is a short list, but if someone can point out something about these moves that makes them viable, or show me how I may just be using them wrong, please do tell, because I WANT to like this fighter...

Neutral Aerial A has so little attack power and knock-back that it's practically worthless as a kill attack, and barely passable as a spacing/push-back tool.

Forward Aerial A is practically worthless against grounded opponents that are the size of Mario or shorter, and air dodging is so easy that it's practically impossible to hit with it in the air as well.

Back aerial's hitbox is so fast and short that the timing is difficult to get down without being punished just for attempting it, and the launching power below 100% on top of the lag makes it almost not worth doing.

Forward tilt on the ground is weak to the point of painful, and the range is pathetic for a sword.
The down smash has almost no knock-back unless you hit with the back swing and the recovery lag makes it far too punishable.

The up smash and forward smash are practically the only two great moves it has, and then only if they actually hit, but both of those also have horrendously punishable lag if either one whiffs, whilst main-line characters like Yoshi and Rosalina can almost spam theirs due to the lack of lag at move's end...

I'm seriously disappointed with how their A set has turned out. There are so many bad moves that you practically NEED to add in some customization items if you want to do anything worthwhile with them, or at least that's how it seems to me.[And I'd rather not put any of those on them for regular battles, honestly]

 

[RandomnessChannel]

Meh. I got used to them. I like them a lot now, but meh, opinions.

 

[Gidy]

Considering I won the Day 2 Tourney with Mii Swordfighter, I think it's moves are great. Sure, aerials may be strict but they all autocancel and have little lag on them so they are safe. Forward Tilt is good for pivoting, and yeah, Regular A-A-A Jab is pretty bad.

Here's my video:

 

[popsofctown]

Uptilt is my favorite mii swordfigher A attack, because it's *on par* with Link's. And that's about it.

Swordfighter is really weak.

 

[Eji1700]

I'm ok with his aerials.

Nair may not kill anyone but it's awesome at covering option thanks to the hit box. If I don't have a great read or just need to throw something out now, nair will usually be my go to. Again i don't use it to space or kill, just to rack up damage when chasing.

I've basically never had issues with fair? I think it's one of his best moves.

Bair does have some issues at lower %'s, but that's fine, it makes up for it with nice knockback when fresh at higher %'s.

I do think swordfighter is the weakest of the group(the worst normals and specials), but i'd still say he's probably just low mid tier at worst.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

I've found that the Swordfighter relies very strongly on proper spacing and not whiffing anything that's not a projectile. It's a bit of a pain on the 3DS to be honest, since I'll sometimes try to pull out a sudden FSmash and have it come out as an FTilt, or try to buffer a DTilt only to have it come out as a DSmash.

 

[DigitalAtom6]

I think the Mii is a pretty good character. The forward air is good for spacing and keeping the opponent at a distance and then barrage them with tornados and chakrams. The down air is really good for racking up damage and has a nice hitbox when you hit the ground. Does anyone remember how Wario short hops into down air to approach in brawl? Same concept here.
up air is surprisingly efficient in juggling opponents who are airborne and the nair is good for more spacing and retreating with such a large hitbox. The bair is indeed not that useful, but if you can just RaR that into forward air, you won't have to use it.

Up smash is definitely the main kill move and has the second longest ending lag, forward smash having the most and down smash the least, though the use of down smash is not high and a player should be careful with the use of forward smash.
The only other kill move that doesn't involve down air off stage (it doesn't spike, but the knockback downwards is pretty good), is up b. Well, at least the one where you can change direction or the one just like Link's up b.

As for the tilts, up tilt is great for starting combos, forward tilt is a faster and weaker version of forward smash and is therefore more useful, and down tilt is fast and has decent knockback. I think it is as useful as uptilt and should be used instead of the jab, which can work, but isn't that great. It's input is difficult to pull off fast on a 3ds, since it sometimes goes into downsmash, which isn't as good. Practice it though, and it'll go fine.

Then there is the dash attack. This is your bread and butter playing Mii Swordfighter. It's in my opinion the fastest way to punish an opponent or safely approach, since it doesn't have much ending lag or startup lag. The hitbox stays out for a while too. It has fairly decent knockback except at lower percentages and isn't that good for combo's after that, but that's what uptilt and the air moves are for.

Some combo's I came up with:
Dash attack, up air (repeat and juggle) or up tilt depending on how your opponent reacts and then juggle them, end with forward air or up b.
(if the opponent is in range of forward smash) chakram by tilt (not smash), roll grab down throw, juggle with up air and end with forward air or up b.
(if wanting to approach close range) short hop into down air, up tilt x2, up smash end.

Let me know what you think about this, but I think this is a pretty good character.

 

[t!MmY]

Let me know what you think about this, but I think this is a pretty good character.

Mii Swordfighter is one of the worst characters in the game - I've even heard him called the worst character in the game. Here is what I personally think of him:

His damage output is low and he has little combo potential to offset this. His 'reach' (how far he can effectively fight) is decent, but it is next to worthless with what you get out of hitting your opponent (see: 'damage output' and 'combo potential). On top of that, his spacing game is crippled by the amount of recovery-lag he suffers in general from his attacks. This fact alone keeps him from being able to throw out safe attacks for either pressure, defense, or 'pokes'.

What is a character to do when they lack both damage output and safe spacing tools? One option is to go the 'powerhouse' route where single-hitting attacks are your bread-and-butter (e.g. Ganondorf). Swordfighter's 'powerhouse' moves are just non-existent. On top of that, if you run around throwing out his 'strong' moves (Smash Attacks and some of his Special Attacks) you are basically giving your opponent massive windows of punishing you for little reward.

Swordfighter doesn't fit any role well, he doesn't even fit the 'well-balanced' role because he lacks the qualities of even a mediocre character in SSB4 (even Mario has combos and safe spacing moves). He is low tier at best... at least without any given buffs in future patches.

 

[Dropkick Laser]

Well that kind of sucks because I really liked the idea of myself swinging around a sword. Eh, I guess I can just make a gunner mii or something. The mii fighters in general just seem like a sloppily pulled off concept to me.

 

[Unknownkid]

I really want to argue against what t!MmY is saying but he absolutely right. Mii Swordfighter is terrible. We have the lowest Jump, cannot Wall Jump, combo potential is inconsistent or nonexistent and too much lag between our moves. If you ever going to F-smash, you better hope it hits. With that being said, I am going to keep playing this character. Our range is pretty amazing and as a short fat girl, we have some speed and height in our jump. U-Air kills so early and Dtilt comes out quick. D-air is just silly but tricky multihit move. The range of the ending shockwave catches people off guard. I need more time to experiment against good players. My brothers and friend are not cutting it.

If Nintendo or Sakurai is watching this board, please reduce the lag on some of Swordfighters moves!

 

[Antonykun]

I really can't be dissatisfied with Swordfighter's a attacks all the aerials are great with their own functions that are all already said though I will add that nair into d-tilt is a sweet approach trick. The smashes are bad with up-smash being decent f-smash being on punish duty and down-smash never useful. D-tilt and u-tilt are good but f tilt is also on punish duty. 2 jabs can lead for some muxups but they lack range. The Mii Swordfighter may be the worst character is smash 4 but he is far from being a joke character.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

I experimented with him for a bit and I actually like how his Dair doesn't have a strong hitbox in the air. It just drags the other guy down with you. Useful for gimps?

 

[Unknownkid]

I experimented with him for a bit and I actually like how his Dair doesn't have a strong hitbox in the air. It just drags the other guy down with you. Useful for gimps?

Yes it is. But it is harder to do than Kirby. It is a mixed between Kirby, Mario, and Link's Dair.

 

[san.]

Dair is potent enough since you move much better in the air than Kirby with much better disjoint. Dair is indeed quite a good move, especially for a dair. Best utilized on short Miis because the end lag is very low.

 

[EternalFlame]

Just a small gripe thread; I've been playing as the Mii Swordfighter for a bit now, and no matter what I try I simply cannot get over how bad many of its A attacks are, especially compared to Link, my main.

Below is a short list, but if someone can point out something about these moves that makes them viable, or show me how I may just be using them wrong, please do tell, because I WANT to like this fighter...

Neutral Aerial A has so little attack power and knock-back that it's practically worthless as a kill attack, and barely passable as a spacing/push-back tool.

Forward Aerial A is practically worthless against grounded opponents that are the size of Mario or shorter, and air dodging is so easy that it's practically impossible to hit with it in the air as well.

Back aerial's hitbox is so fast and short that the timing is difficult to get down without being punished just for attempting it, and the launching power below 100% on top of the lag makes it almost not worth doing.

Forward tilt on the ground is weak to the point of painful, and the range is pathetic for a sword.
The down smash has almost no knock-back unless you hit with the back swing and the recovery lag makes it far too punishable.

The up smash and forward smash are practically the only two great moves it has, and then only if they actually hit, but both of those also have horrendously punishable lag if either one whiffs, whilst main-line characters like Yoshi and Rosalina can almost spam theirs due to the lack of lag at move's end...

I'm seriously disappointed with how their A set has turned out. There are so many bad moves that you practically NEED to add in some customization items if you want to do anything worthwhile with them, or at least that's how it seems to me.[And I'd rather not put any of those on them for regular battles, honestly]

I personally find the Mii Swordsman's A moveset particularly great. They're both fast and can setup rather well into some really good situations if used correctly.

Neutral A for starters is a really strong setup move for Mii Swordsman. The reach is good, and spaced well can do poking as is. But if you connect with the first two swings, you can pause for a sec and followup with a grab or dtilt. It requires strict timing or a frame 1 move to get out of the setup as well (I outlined all of the options for this and the next point below on the advanced technique guide post).

Forward Aerial A is ok against anti air, but when used before landing on the ground, it becomes yet another setup move with little landing lag. If you land with the first two hits again before landing, options are laid out that even go into the Jab setup described above.

The back Air seems to immitate Ike's Back Air, which is good for killing with, but not so much landing with. I believe if you fast fall it, the space it takes when it's hitbox is active is pretty decent and cut down some of the landing lag. Otherwise, you're better off protecting yourself with NAir or use one of his other options.

Hopefully that helps out a bit dude

 

[Unknownkid]

You can also fast fall Nair into some decent options. The timing is more strict on this one though.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

A whole thread about Swordfighter's A moves and nobody covered UAir yet?

First, you can get the hit out most of Swordfighter's other "decent" moves, like UTilt, Slash Launcher, Shuriken and DTilt.
Second, it can combo into itself, so you can keep the opponent in the air for damage.
Third, it kills early. Like, killing Sheik at 120% early. With characters surviving longer, it's a pretty big feat for such a quick move.
This is your killing move. Not the Smashes!

Other good A-moves are:

-DTilt (it has the range all Swordfighters attacks should have, it's pretty long)
-Nair (The space it covers is bigger than Ridley)
-UTilt (This moves is as good as Tink's. It's doing its job! Yaaay!)
-Dair (Edgeguard with Dair --> Footstool FTW)

 

[EternalFlame]

A whole thread about Swordfighter's A moves and nobody covered UAir yet?

First, you can get the hit out most of Swordfighter's other "decent" moves, like UTilt, Slash Launcher, Shuriken and DTilt.
Second, it can combo into itself, so you can keep the opponent in the air for damage.
Third, it kills early. Like, killing Sheik at 120% early. With characters surviving longer, it's a pretty big feat for such a quick move.
This is your killing move. Not the Smashes!

Other good A-moves are:

-DTilt (it has the range all Swordfighters attacks should have, it's pretty long)
-Nair (The space it covers is bigger than Ridley)
-UTilt (This moves is as good as Tink's. It's doing its job! Yaaay!)
-Dair (Edgeguard with Dair --> Footstool FTW)

actually, Digital Atom covered UAir and most of the other things you've mentioned xD The only thing he hasn't mentioned (or anyone else on the thread here) was that UAir is a great kill move.

 

[Unknownkid]

Uair Combos into itself? Not in a single jump unless you mean Sourspot Hit+ Second Jump+ Sourspot/Sweetspot Hit.
Uair kills much early than 120%. Of course, you need it to be fresh.

Dtilt range is longer than Fsmash or Ftilt? Hmm... I find that hard to believe but I am willing to test this.
Dair is a good airdodge frame trap. Mix between Uair, Fair and Dair for some fun shenanigans.

 

[DigitalAtom6]

Mii Swordfighter is one of the worst characters in the game - I've even heard him called the worst character in the game. Here is what I personally think of him:

His damage output is low and he has little combo potential to offset this. His 'reach' (how far he can effectively fight) is decent, but it is next to worthless with what you get out of hitting your opponent (see: 'damage output' and 'combo potential). On top of that, his spacing game is crippled by the amount of recovery-lag he suffers in general from his attacks. This fact alone keeps him from being able to throw out safe attacks for either pressure, defense, or 'pokes'.

What is a character to do when they lack both damage output and safe spacing tools? One option is to go the 'powerhouse' route where single-hitting attacks are your bread-and-butter (e.g. Ganondorf). Swordfighter's 'powerhouse' moves are just non-existent. On top of that, if you run around throwing out his 'strong' moves (Smash Attacks and some of his Special Attacks) you are basically giving your opponent massive windows of punishing you for little reward.

Swordfighter doesn't fit any role well, he doesn't even fit the 'well-balanced' role because he lacks the qualities of even a mediocre character in SSB4 (even Mario has combos and safe spacing moves). He is low tier at best... at least without any given buffs in future patches.

You're actually wrong when it comes to lack of safe spacing moves. Mii Swordfighters main spacing moves are Nair, Tornado Strike and Chakram. The latter two can be a bit laggy, but they're both projectiles, so if used from afar the lag doesn't matter all that much. This is especially true with Tornado Strike, because hit has a windbox after it loses its hitboxes.
Damage output is not something Mii Swordfighter excels at, but all damaging moves except for smashes deal around 8% each. That isn't very bad at all. It could be way worse.
And when you say ''lack of combo potential'' I ask the question: have you been experimenting what combo's work?
I have, and I can tell you there are certainly some nice combo's that Mii swordfighter can pull off. They're just difficult to execute or not that extensive, that's all.
For example, a lot of characters have a down throw to Uair combo. Mii swordfighter is no exception, but unlike a lot of other characters, Mii swordfighter has a Uair that kills between 80 and 120%, depending on the situation. So that combo can turn out deadly. Need a kill? Grab to down throw to Uair. Done.
Need damage? Use spacing tools, Dair and tilts. Uair juggling racks up damage fast too, since it deals as much damage as Dsmash uncharged.
Generally, Mii swordfighter appeals to players who are patient, know their opponent and how to properly punish them. If you're into fast paced fights with lots of combo's, don't pick this character. Pick Sheik for that.

 

[Unknownkid]

Trust me, he knows. However, he and many others concluded Mii Swordfighter is a terrible character and there is no point in investing time in him, especially from a tournament standpoint. I cannot blame him or anyone else for that decision. For now, we as community will do our best to take this terrible character and make him viable (if possible).

Sadly, I can see his counter argument.. There are stronger characters (Ike, Ganon, Bowser - PowerHouse) (Peach, Falco, Doc Mario - Defensive) (Link, Lucario, Zelda -Zone) that can do the patient game better than Swordfighter. So why will you use him over them? To this day, I still do not have a perfect response this question. I mean we have a Sword user that use something like Chakram, Rainbow Slash and Tornado Strike/Shuriken of Light but what else is there to him. With time we will figure it out as a dedicated community.

Anyways, Good Post. What size mii are you using? Default Mii Swordfighter does 5 damage with Nair, 6 with Dtilt, 7 on Utilt (but it can juggle at low percent).

 

[Antonykun]

You're actually wrong when it comes to lack of safe spacing moves. Mii Swordfighters main spacing moves are Nair, Tornado Strike and Chakram. The latter two can be a bit laggy, but they're both projectiles, so if used from afar the lag doesn't matter all that much. This is especially true with Tornado Strike, because hit has a windbox after it loses its hitboxes.

Um actually N-air, D-tilt, and SoL are the go to spacing moves. Like you said TS and Chakram are laggy, too laggy to be used for consistent spacing they are projectiles though so they are not completely useless in neutral. In the distance where Chakram would be safe Sol would deal one percent more with less lag at the end but it is overall weaker than Chakram.

And when you say ''lack of combo potential'' I ask the question: have you been experimenting what combo's work?
I have, and I can tell you there are certainly some nice combo's that Mii swordfighter can pull off. They're just difficult to execute or not that extensive, that's all.
For example, a lot of characters have a down throw to Uair combo. Mii swordfighter is no exception, but unlike a lot of other characters, Mii swordfighter has a Uair that kills between 80 and 120%, depending on the situation. So that combo can turn out deadly.

Actually down throw to up air generally stops working around 50% with no rage and even then it requires way more precision than diddy's stuff.

Other than that I agree with everything

Sadly, I can see his counter argument.. There are stronger characters (Ike, Ganon, Bowser - PowerHouse) (Peach, Falco, Doc Mario - Defensive) (Link, Lucario, Zelda -Zone) that can do the patient game better than Swordfighter. So why will you use him over them? To this day, I still do not have a perfect response this question. I mean we have a Sword user that use something like Chakram, Rainbow Slash and Tornado Strike/Shuriken of Light but what else is there to him. With time we will figure it out as a dedicated community..

I genuinely believe that Swordfighter has some of the if not the strongest keepaway/most you-got-to-approach-me game. SoL and Cape means they HAVE to approach you with a few exceptions.

 

[t!MmY]

You're actually wrong when it comes to lack of safe spacing moves. Mii Swordfighters main spacing moves are Nair, Tornado Strike and Chakram.

I thought you were going to list Standard Attack and D-tilt, to which I could agree and simply point out my gauche use of exaggeration. But the moves you listed (N-air, Tornado, and Chakram) are not what I would call safe spacing moves. Partly because I was talking about his up-close options, but also because they're not really safe or just generally inefficient.

Good qualities of 'safe' attacks (the more of the below, the better):
Fast recovery lag
Good reach
Quick start-up
Combo potential
Cancels into another move

Qualities that often accompany 'safe' attacks for balance:
Weak damage
Lowered Priority
Reduced/non-existent Hit-Stun

Well, N-air has a decent reach with a disjoint, but it misses every other quality of a safe attack... additionally it has poor damage output. This is not something I would generally regard as a good spacing tool, let alone a 'safe' one.

But, instead of just pointing out the bad parts of N-air, I'll step it up and give feedback on progressing this character:

One interesting way I've been incorporating N-air into my play is as a cross-up. It's still not great, but if I'm fishing for a move to throw out while trying to avoid being punished up-close and in the air then getting behind the opponent is a better bet. Just jump at the opponent, start up the sluggish N-air, get behind the opponent and space that N-air as best as you can. Most people are so unfamiliar with unorthodox Swordsman techniques that this tactic goes unpunished.

Also, N-air as a "Shield Check" works out much better. If you suspect the opponent will Shield for a punish (an effective strat against Swordsman), spacing the tip of the N-air against the outside of the Shield while moving away works fairly decently. This can allow one to try to reset back to a neutral position and is, at the least, unlikely to get punished.