Alternatives to Rolling

[Jackson]

Hey guys, I have a Brawl question. I think I roll WAY too much and I need to change that. I think the only reason I do it is for a psychological reason- it makes me feel safe. The problem is, the excessive rolling leaves me open sometimes. So my question is, what are some good alternatives that I can use defensively but without being open. Spotdodging? I'm not so good at timing with that but maybe i should try. I hear retreating pivot grab is good. What are your guys' opinions? I would really like the help.

 

[DeLux]

If you're using it as a movement option, try walking or dashing instead.
When doing it from shield situations, try jump straight out of shield (and do a retreating aerial if applicable).

 

[Jackson]

If you're using it as a movement option, try walking or dashing instead.
When doing it from shield situations, try jump straight out of shield (and do a retreating aerial if applicable).

Thanks for the quick reply! The retreating aerial is a good idea. I main Marth, and I know retreating Fair is a good option. I'll try to work it into my game more.

 

[Taytertot]

Definitely practice the spotdodge cause sometimes you want to keep your position while dodging an attack so that your in a good position to punish. as marth you also have the counter though that can be dangerous. if your not trying to avoid a grab then perfect shielding is ideal because if they hit your shield you almost always have several frames if not more of advantage especially if you perfect shield.

 

[Jackson]

true, thanks.

 

[infiniteV115]

So my question is, what are some good alternatives that I can use defensively but without being open. Spotdodging? I'm not so good at timing with that but maybe i should try. I hear retreating pivot grab is good. What are your guys' opinions? I would really like the help.

Every out of shield option can leave you open (there is no out of shield option in this game that's 100% safe/invincible), it depends on how the situation plays out and what your opponent does and whatnot
The problem isn't the rolling itself; it's the fact that you're making the decision to roll out of panic/fear, which makes you predictable/easy for the opponent to read you, and thus they know it's coming and can punish you easily and without hesitation.

Technically speaking, there are only 6 real out of shield options. Everything else is either a variation with regards to timing (ie when you choose the OoS option) or what you do after the out of shield option.
1) Forward roll
2) Back roll
3) Spotdodge
4) Shieldgrab
5) Jump out of shield
6) Drop shield

The former 3 options are all kinda the same; they're fairly big commitments to make and easier to punish if you're doing them predictable. If you're already consistently getting punished for any of these 3, then the opponent is probably hitting you during the vulnerable cooldown of the option itself, and thus choosing something after the option will not prevent you from getting punished as you're probably getting punished before the next option can come out.

Shieldgrabbing is kinda the same but it's less of a commitment (with Marth anyway, that's who you main, right?) and it's also a counterattack; however it's also not invincible.

The latter two present a myriad of additional followup options that can all be very good and serve different purposes from one another. There are theoretically dozens/hundreds of different variations stemming from these two OoS options, and I can't cover all of them. For example, jumping out of shield sounds like just one option, but you can decide the following variations on it
- Short hop/full hop (2)
- 5 aerials, 4 B-moves, double jump, airdodge, or nothing (12)
- Move forward, backwards, or just straight upwards (3)

2x12x3 = 48 options right there. Some obviously better than others, but at the same time it's actually much more than 48. You can decide how far to move in a given direction/pair of directions (eg you might jump out and then weave back in), how long you wait before throwing out one of the 12 options, what you do after each of these 48 options mentioned, etc.

As you can see there's a huge variety in what you can do out of shield, not only with regards to what you do, but how you do it (ie timing & spacing) and how you follow it up. I can't cover every variation but here are some good ones for Marth

- Jump-cancelling upB OoS
- SH retreating nair/fair
- Drop shield --> run away and pivot grab
- Jump-cancelling usmash
- SH DB1 (first hit of sideB)
- Drop shield --> sideB/dtilt
- Jumping uair

Hope this helps.

 

[Jackson]

Every out of shield option can leave you open (there is no out of shield option in this game that's 100% safe/invincible), it depends on how the situation plays out and what your opponent does and whatnot
The problem isn't the rolling itself; it's the fact that you're making the decision to roll out of panic/fear, which makes you predictable/easy for the opponent to read you, and thus they know it's coming and can punish you easily and without hesitation.

Technically speaking, there are only 6 real out of shield options. Everything else is either a variation with regards to timing (ie when you choose the OoS option) or what you do after the out of shield option.
1) Forward roll
2) Back roll
3) Spotdodge
4) Shieldgrab
5) Jump out of shield
6) Drop shield

The former 3 options are all kinda the same; they're fairly big commitments to make and easier to punish if you're doing them predictable. If you're already consistently getting punished for any of these 3, then the opponent is probably hitting you during the vulnerable cooldown of the option itself, and thus choosing something after the option will not prevent you from getting punished as you're probably getting punished before the next option can come out.

Shieldgrabbing is kinda the same but it's less of a commitment (with Marth anyway, that's who you main, right?) and it's also a counterattack; however it's also not invincible.

The latter two present a myriad of additional followup options that can all be very good and serve different purposes from one another. There are theoretically dozens/hundreds of different variations stemming from these two OoS options, and I can't cover all of them. For example, jumping out of shield sounds like just one option, but you can decide the following variations on it
- Short hop/full hop (2)
- 5 aerials, 4 B-moves, double jump, airdodge, or nothing (12)
- Move forward, backwards, or just straight upwards (3)

2x12x3 = 48 options right there. Some obviously better than others, but at the same time it's actually much more than 48. You can decide how far to move in a given direction/pair of directions (eg you might jump out and then weave back in), how long you wait before throwing out one of the 12 options, what you do after each of these 48 options mentioned, etc.

As you can see there's a huge variety in what you can do out of shield, not only with regards to what you do, but how you do it (ie timing & spacing) and how you follow it up. I can't cover every variation but here are some good ones for Marth

- Jump-cancelling upB OoS
- SH retreating nair/fair
- Drop shield --> run away and pivot grab
- Jump-cancelling usmash
- SH DB1 (first hit of sideB)
- Drop shield --> sideB/dtilt
- Jumping uair

Hope this helps.

Wow, thanks a lot! That was very enlightening. You're right , I do roll out of fear. Shield grabbing does seem to be a great option, and I'm trying to use it more. You gave me a bunch of good ideas as Marth. This obviously isn't the best thread to ask, but how exactly do you jump cancel up smash and what is the purpose ? Thanks again.

 

[infiniteV115]

When you jump, you don't leave the ground immediately - instead, you first go through what's called a jumpsquat animation (like how you'd bend your knees irl before jumping). For most characters it's 5 frames, for others it's longer (anywhere between 6 and 10)
During your jumpsquat animation, you're on the ground. When it's done you're in the air.

When you drop your shield in this game, you go through 7 frames of shielddrop lag (or 17 if you're Yoshi).

If you input up+a during your jumpsquat animation, you cancel the jumpsquat animation with an usmash (and thus you never leave the ground). Same applies to upB. So you can do jump-cancelling usmashes and upBs in this game, but not with any other move.

This is useful because you can't usmash/upB directly out of shield, but you can jump directly out of shield and then cancel the jump with an usmash/upB.

So let's look at Marth since you main him.
Marth's usmash first hits on frame 12, and his upB has invincibility on frames 1-5, and hits on frame 5-11 (which means that on frame 5, he is invincible and he has a hitbox out)

With a frame perfect jump cancel, you input the jump and the usmash/upB on the same frame, so you don't go through any of the jumpsquat frames. Thus if this is done out of shield, you go directly from shielding into using your usmash/upB. Even if it's not frame perfect, it's still probably going to be faster than 7 frames.

If instead you decide to drop shield first and then usmash/upB, you'd endure 7 frames of shielddrop first (during which you are completely vulnerable).
But since you can cancel your jump, you don't need to endure this vulnerability/lag period. So a frame perfect JCupB out of shield has no vulnerability to it; you go from shielding directly into invincibility (since Marth's upB is invincible on frame 1) and then you'll also hit on frame 5, which is really fast out of shield...most other attacks out of shield are much slower than this because
- For any attack that's not an usmash or an upB, you have to shielddrop first (or jump if it's an aerial) and then go through the startup of the attack.
- Most usmashes and upBs are slower than frame 5
- Every grab in the game is frame 6 or slower (standard grabs are 6, some 8, tethers like 10+, etc)

So yeah. UpB OoS is really good with Marth, mostly because it's fast and invincible but also because on frame 5, you're invincible AND you have a hitbox out; so if you hit on this frame, then on frame 6 (when you're no longer invincible) any hitboxes that the opponent had out before are gone now cause they got hit. Just don't use it when you're opponent's at really low % cause it's unsafe on hit due to all the ending lag afterwards...and don't get predictable because if it gets shielded/dodged then you get punished easily.

 

[Jackson]

When you jump, you don't leave the ground immediately - instead, you first go through what's called a jumpsquat animation (like how you'd bend your knees irl before jumping). For most characters it's 5 frames, for others it's longer (anywhere between 6 and 10)
During your jumpsquat animation, you're on the ground. When it's done you're in the air.

When you drop your shield in this game, you go through 7 frames of shielddrop lag (or 17 if you're Yoshi).

If you input up+a during your jumpsquat animation, you cancel the jumpsquat animation with an usmash (and thus you never leave the ground). Same applies to upB. So you can do jump-cancelling usmashes and upBs in this game, but not with any other move.

This is useful because you can't usmash/upB directly out of shield, but you can jump directly out of shield and then cancel the jump with an usmash/upB.

So let's look at Marth since you main him.
Marth's usmash first hits on frame 12, and his upB has invincibility on frames 1-5, and hits on frame 5-11 (which means that on frame 5, he is invincible and he has a hitbox out)

With a frame perfect jump cancel, you input the jump and the usmash/upB on the same frame, so you don't go through any of the jumpsquat frames. Thus if this is done out of shield, you go directly from shielding into using your usmash/upB. Even if it's not frame perfect, it's still probably going to be faster than 7 frames.

If instead you decide to drop shield first and then usmash/upB, you'd endure 7 frames of shielddrop first (during which you are completely vulnerable).
But since you can cancel your jump, you don't need to endure this vulnerability/lag period. So a frame perfect JCupB out of shield has no vulnerability to it; you go from shielding directly into invincibility (since Marth's upB is invincible on frame 1) and then you'll also hit on frame 5, which is really fast out of shield...most other attacks out of shield are much slower than this because
- For any attack that's not an usmash or an upB, you have to shielddrop first (or jump if it's an aerial) and then go through the startup of the attack.
- Most usmashes and upBs are slower than frame 5
- Every grab in the game is frame 6 or slower (standard grabs are 6, some 8, tethers like 10+, etc)

So yeah. UpB OoS is really good with Marth, mostly because it's fast and invincible but also because on frame 5, you're invincible AND you have a hitbox out; so if you hit on this frame, then on frame 6 (when you're no longer invincible) any hitboxes that the opponent had out before are gone now cause they got hit. Just don't use it when you're opponent's at really low % cause it's unsafe on hit due to all the ending lag afterwards...and don't get predictable because if it gets shielded/dodged then you get punished easily.

Thank you, once again very helpful. I used to Up B Oos with Marth a lot, but I began to whiff it a lot so I kinda stopped using it. I guess i need to be more careful with it. If you don't mind me asking another question, can you do the up smash of the jump canceled up smash with the c stick?

 

[infiniteV115]

Yes, you can.

 

[Jackson]

Ok. I guess that's the optimal way.