Alternate stage list discussion

[Komotonoto]

Final Destination should be legal, wut.

 

[SheerMadness]

I don't think I've ever heard banze express any real disdain for their crazy counter picking options. Have to assume the Brazilians enjoy their format or else they'd change it.

Also I'm not sure I agree with getting rid of hyrule. But I'd certainly be open to giving a hyrule-less format a shot or two.

People claim they hate hyrule because it promotes camping yet it's constantly counter picked in tourneys. By top players too. I don't understand that logic. If you don't want campy games why are you counter picking people to hyrule?

 

[Komotonoto]

I don't think I've ever heard banze express any real disdain for their crazy counter picking options. Have to assume the Brazilians enjoy their format or else they'd change it.

Also I'm not sure I agree with getting rid of hyrule. But I'd certainly be open to giving a hyrule-less format a shot or two.

People claim they hate hyrule because it promotes camping yet it's constantly counter picked in tourneys. By top players too. I don't understand that logic. If you don't want campy games why are you counter picking people to hyrule?

One does not simply assume things without making an ass of you and them.

 

[clubbadubba]

Yea banze is pretty chill about it, but he doesn't like sector z pretty sure. The reason they have that format is because each player has their "favorite stage" so they don't want to ban any. Its weird

The thing with people against hyrule is that just because they believe the map to be competitively broken doesn't mean they won't take advantage of that broken element if they are allowed to. To not do so would be to handicap oneself.

 

[Komotonoto]

How about.. Just final D. No excuses.

 

[Battlecow]

I don't think I've ever heard banze express any real disdain for their crazy counter picking options. Have to assume the Brazilians enjoy their format or else they'd change it.

Also I'm not sure I agree with getting rid of hyrule. But I'd certainly be open to giving a hyrule-less format a shot or two.

People claim they hate hyrule because it promotes camping yet it's constantly counter picked in tourneys. By top players too. I don't understand that logic. If you don't want campy games why are you counter picking people to hyrule?

It promotes stalling which breaks the game

people CP it anyways because they're playing to win, not to enjoy themselves. It sucks when winning precludes enjoyment like it does on Hyrule.

This should be in the index or something, me/kefit/others have had to explain it at least like 8-9 times

 

[MrMarbles]

i find hyrule very enjoyable and i know im not the only one

 

[thegreginator]

Seriously. Claiming that people don't have fun on Hyrule/only pick it to win is ridiculous. Some matchups are both more competitive(ly balanced/fair) and fun on Hyrule (Falcon dittos come to mind).

 

[SheerMadness]

Looks like plenty of people can have fun on hyrule.

It's pretty ironic that the people with the "play to win at all costs" mindset, who are notoriously campy themselves, are the ones with the biggest issue against hyrule. Well that's what it appears like in this thread anyway.

Perhaps it's their mindset that prevents enjoyment not hyrule? Like they're forced to camp on hryle, despite not wanting to, just because they think it's the best path to victory.

Just an observation, and it may be way off.

 

[Battlecow]

It's not ironic at all lol

yes, the players who don't like hyrule are the ones who camp on it (although it's pretty easy to get players of around your level to hate hyrule as well--or at least to hate playing you on it)

because they're the ones who are playing the stage right and know how bad it is

the people who play hyrule suboptimally can have a great time on it. Anyone who wants to do aggro friendlies on hyrule will find many things to enjoy about it (although tbh nados are still lame and banworthy). This is also the case with, for example, Yoshi's Island or Saffron.

This is not a new discovery or scandal. Again, we've been over it 8-9 times at least. The problem is that good camping is gonna beat a similar level of aggro play on hyrule, and you can't just be like "play for fun" in a competitive context. I'm not camping because I hate the stage and want it banned, I'm camping because I play my best and my best on hyrule is camping. Ergo, it's a bad stage.

 

[SheerMadness]

So you're claiming:

1. That people can't enjoy playing on hyrule if they counter pick it?

2. There's only 1 correct way to play on hyrule, and that's to camp your ass off?

Lol I've never heard anyone say there's only 1 correct way to play on a stage before. Pretty ridiculous man.

Would you say you'd beat me pretty much every time if we played on hyrule?

 

[clubbadubba]

1. people can enjoy playing on hyrule. some do, some don't, but it's besides the point

2. People who think hyrule should be banned believe that the OPTIMAL and BROKEN way to play on hyrule is to camp. Of course there are many ways to play any stage, and usually you can counter one style with another style so no way is considered broken on other stages. But according to anti hyrule people, camping is so broken on hyrule that it has no counter other than camping (or one player being FAR better than the other). That is their position and that's why they want to ban it (not that i agree with them, but the premise is very logical)

 

[Battlecow]

I mean, camping is pretty OP on that stage. I don't think that aggressive play can ever hold up against smart camping between players of similar caliber, no. Would I beat you? I don't know. Maybe. You've been beating me on DL pretty consistent lately though, so maybe not. We should try it out sometime.

 

[Cobrevolution]

message for everyone in my drunken state: grow some ****ing balls and attack the other player with everything you have and try to have fun while doing it.

 

[Battlecow]

Thanks for contributing, cobr.

 

[SheerMadness]

Let's do it bc. All hyrule and you camp the **** out of me.

According to your theory you'll beat me almost every time. Or you'll be forced to admit that I'm on a completely different level than you.

Sounds like a fun challenge to me. =]

EDIT: Holy crap dude I just noticed you have 8,000 posts lol.

 

[Battlecow]

I mean you're better than me and I don't know tent combos, so I'm not staking my theory on this lol

but yeah, let's try it

 

[Kimimaru]

I like Hyrule and Congo because they give me more room to work with. When I feel a little constrained by Dreamland's size, either because the opponent is playing a faster character or because I just can't play well on it that day, I choose another stage. I feel that having at least one more good stage that players can choose is beneficial rather than detrimental to competitive play.

One thing I really like about Congo is it's bigger than Dreamland but still manages to make camping really hard because it doesn't have a similar layout to Hyrule.

Battlecow, I find it interesting how you say that camping on Hyrule is the optimal strategy. In our ladder matches I noticed that you continued to camp the top platform even though you were losing, and you generally got better results whenever you approached me. I have also won a majority of the games we played on Hyrule and I haven't camped as much. What I want to know is why you think camping is optimal even if it doesn't work out for the player. Wouldn't another tactic be more optimal in this case?

 

[SheerMadness]

Maybe you're just on a completely different level than bc, Kimi. It's a flawless theory so I'm pretty sure that's the only explanation.

Lol but on a serious note, and moving away from bc's ridiculous theories. I'm cool with giving no hyrule a shot for an online tourney or two and see how everyone likes it.

Personally I doubt it would influence my opinion at all (hyrule should stay) but it can't hurt to try. Just don't play Link, because he'll be even less viable than he already is.

Also I have no idea where Kefit is getting that "all the good players want hyrule gone" lol.

 

[Battlecow]

It's not all the good players but it's a lot of them

I hate listing because I always forget half of em but go check the apex thread it was pretty convincing

The notable against people are like

isai, ballin', maybe jaime, possibly firo, and recently kimi/greg

IDK kimi I literally never play hyrule and I haven't needed to learn the mario matchup there against you so I usually just end up phoning those in and then winning the fun ones on DL. Not saying I "could do better if I tried" or anything, just that I don't think my halfhearted top plat stuff is indicative of the potential there

It doesn't have to be broken in every matchup to be broken, either. Keep that in mind. Ask ballin' or Zenyore or Zeus about how falcon/fox/pika does against me on that stage

 

[clubbadubba]

The idea that a stage can have an "optimal" strategy is not at all new or absurd. That is the reason that Yoshi's island (cloud camping) and Saffron (helipad camping) are banned. So its actually a pretty logical premise. The real question is whether or not camping is such an "optimal" strategy.

If it is, then I agree with them. If its not, then I don't. Camping has certainly been utilized more effectively as of late, but imo it has not been evidenced to be broken up to this date.

 

[Battlecow]

yeah honestly I haven't seen as much evidence as I thought I would either, mostly because the people who play hyrule optimally haven't been playing hyrule at all.

Not saying I'm doubting but I do see clubba's doubts, they're pretty reasonable.

 

[SheerMadness]

Claiming that there's only one optimal way to play on a stage, without any real evidence or any real way to test that theory seems illogical to me.

But clubba, if you'd like to explain to me how we'd ever be able to test it and reach a conclusive answer I'm all ears.

 

[clubbadubba]

Well you can't be 100% sure of anything, and this isn't something that you "test." It would just be general community consensus based on playing the game. We can theorize all day, but unless people are effectively using the theorized strategy then it doesn't matter.

For me, to say we should ban hyrule we would have to see multiple players consistently beating players considered "better" than them strictly due to hyrule camping. This is unlikely to happen under the current ruleset though because of not being able to counterpick to a stage you already picked and won on. The one thing, or really the one player, that anti hyrule people have on their side is Gerson. Gerson has to this date been by far the most effective hyrule camper in the world. The only issue is we don't know how good he would be if he played on DL or Congo or PC, so its impossible to say that he is good strictly due to hyrule camping. He had some pretty sick spacing on the main platform of hyrule, and he comboed just fine without the tent, so honestly I think he's just ****ing good.

Basically, until people actually start breaking the stage in games, it shouldn't be banned imo. Also, even if players do "break" it, they would have to be players that are good enough to matter. Which to me means the players we should be focusing on are ABOVE NA A-tier. So no matter who wins in a sheer v battlecow showdown on hyrule means nothing to me. Now, if Jaime starts using hyrule camping to beat boom or isai, then okay, we'll talk.

 

[SheerMadness]

Well you can't be 100% sure of anything, and this isn't something that you "test." It would just be general community consensus based on playing the game. We can theorize all day, but unless people are effectively using the theorized strategy then it doesn't matter.

Exactly, it's essentially an untestable theory. Nor is there any real evidence to support that camping is the only optimal strategy. So IMO, my "ridiculous theory" label is spot on.

@ Gerson. Yup he does seem to be the most effective hyrule camper. But there's vids of him losing tons of games to a more aggro Isai. Not saying Isai was extremely aggro, but he was clearly far more aggro than Gerson.

 

[clubbadubba]

Exactly, it's essentially an untestable theory. Nor is there any real evidence to support that camping is the only optimal strategy. So IMO, my "ridiculous theory" label is spot on.

@ Gerson. Yup he does seem to be the most effective hyrule camper. But there's vids of him losing tons of games to a more aggro Isai. Not saying Isai was extremely aggro, but he was clearly far more aggro than Gerson.

Its definitely testable. If bad players start consistently beating good players by using hyrule camping, then it would be shown. You just can't 100% PROVE it (just like you can't prove anything that matters outside of mathematics, including generally accepted ideas like gravity). But just because you can't 100% prove it, doesn't mean its not the best answer. By your logic, since you can't prove that yoshi's island cloud camping is broken, its just a ridiculous theory and it shouldn't be banned.

And there are other games where Isai gets 4 stocked because he's too aggro. But again, you can't really tell much there without a multi stage comparison. Maybe Isai would destory Gerson on DL. That would make Hyrule camping look pretty ****ing good wouldn't you say? Or maybe Gerson would destroy Isai on DL. Now maybe hyrule camping is actually not good at all. But we really don't know and using it either way is going to be misleading.

 

[Battlecow]

Claiming that there's only one optimal way to play on a stage, without any real evidence or any real way to test that theory seems illogical to me.

Why do you think Yoshi's Island is banned?

Not carrying this any further. Everyone but you is already up to date on what the arguments on both sides are.

 

[SheerMadness]

Yoshi's is a different beast than hyrule. Not comparable in the least. You don't have to traverse giant gaps and disappearing clouds to approach campers on hryule. You can do so with the safety of solid ground underneath you the whole time. If you wanna be super nit-picky I should have said "hyrule" instead of "stage".

All we have is empirical evidence by mean of observation. And it sure doesn't seem like there's clear evidence to suggest camping is the optimal strategy on hyrule. Not to me anyway.

I'm pretty clear on where both sides stand. Why don't you make a poll to see how both sides stack up? I'm betting the majority don't wanna ban a stage just because a few claim, without any evidence, that there's an optimal play style on it.

 

[mixa]

The notable against [Hyrule] people are like

isai, ballin', maybe jaime, possibly firo, and recently kimi/greg

[collapse=from the once-secret BACK ROOM:]

[/collapse]

 

[Battlecow]

I'm pretty clear on where both sides stand. Why don't you make a poll to see how both sides stack up? I'm betting the majority don't wanna ban a stage just because a few claim, without any evidence, that there's an optimal play style on it.

Sure, done.

To be clear, though, Kefit was referring to very good players: himself, sensei, nintendude, superboomfan, SK (recently), and like four other people I forget

Also you just did the sheer backtrack from "lol how could there be one optimal strategy how stupid" to "hyrule does not promote stalling while yoshi's does." You're now in complete agreement with clubba, and since you're finally up to speed we can stop this.

Mixa those are all people who are against the ban

 

[mixa]

- Also I have no idea where Kefit is getting that "all the good players want hyrule gone" lol.
- It's not all the good players but it's a lot of them

thus I figured them reffered to in favor of the ban. But if that's not the case, then why did Boom change his mind? (this would be interesting to know) Or was he not being serious(!) in the BR?

 

[MrMarbles]

change his mind about what? pretty sure he has always been in favor of the ban

 

[mixa]

^ Yes. ...
I skipped keywords (twice).

 

[Sedda]

Just want a clarification (for myself) since I've been reading these just for fun. Battlecow, when you said "some of the players against," did you mean some of the players against Hyrule or against the Hyrule ban?

-NVM, read your post

 

[Olikus]

remember folks, its just not the stage size/camping issue. The tornadoes are one of the worst hazards in the game. If there were nadoes on DL, I would ban that stage to. Its a really big impact to why I dont like hyrule.

 

[The Star King]

To be clear, though, Kefit was referring to very good players: himself, sensei, nintendude, superboomfan, SK (recently), and like four other people I forget

I would like to not be listed in this camp

My beliefs regarding Hyrule are a little more complex.

I believe it is fairly likely that it well end up being broken, for certain reasons. HOWEVER, I also believe that there needs to be enough evidence to reach the conclusion that it is broken enough to ban the stage. I dislike making these types of decisions based on theory. And in my opinion, there is not enough evidence at this point in time.

Basically what clubba said. He's basically saying what I said in the older Hyrule thread a couple years back (which is why I'm not participating too much this time, yawn heard all this before).

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

Actual opinions
Ban Congo or put it as a counterpick (as it won't be played anyway), have HC/PC/DL as Neutral.

If you dislike Hyrule, strike it from the neutral and win on w/e the 3rd/5th stage is.

 

[SheerMadness]

I posted this in the Zebes thread, but I feel like it should be in here too:

IMO vertical (platform/air) camping is the most effective camping strategy. People have camped me on dreamland far more effectively than anyone has on hyrule.

There's plenty of mixups and mindgames available to approach and outsmart someone when they're on the same horizontal plane as yourself. You don't however, have those resources when someone is camping above you 99% of the game. You can't just go recklessly waste your jumps trying to chase a platform/air camping Kirby on dreamland.

I'd actually be open to testing Sector Z as a counter pick for that reason. There are no platforms to constantly stay above someone the whole match. They have to come down at some point.

 

[O.o-RITH-o.O]

In Brazil we (most of us i think) aren't happy about our rule-set, we are discussing the stage-list at the moment. Oh well, i'll leave my opinion since i'm here.
We have a rule to try to prevent camping, but doesn't really work all that well... But if there's a way to make people stop stalling and camping in hirule, i would be really happy about it, because there's lots of cool plays and combos you can do in hirule because of the big space you have to work with... in other stages combo's are really short and is way too easy to gimp... low,mid tiers are easily gimpable by pikachu and kirby (except yoshi), and pika/kirby are much harder to gimp.
I'm against go for dreamland ONLY, because speaks in favor of games with more gimps/cheapness and less combos/cool moves.

 

[banze]

All I can say is that Clubba is right about everything! =]

How can anyone say that camping is the ultimate gameplay and bad for the scene.
I can firmly say that it is not, we have a player here that is known for camping the s*** out of everybody, and he is actually very good. But he never won a tournament. And he wins just as much when playing on DL. It is more about the player than the style in my opinion. If a player is really good on camping style ... doesn't mean that I might get instantly better once I start playing the same way.But that's is just an example any way. and you all know we play every stage.

About our rule set. I can say for sure that more than half of the regular players here (in São Paulo at least) prefer keeping the stages the way they are. People here in general have adapt to all play styles, the rules are not something that a few decided out of sudden.
We have had internal discussion before most of the tournys, and we changed a lot on this past years, include a "Ban a stage for the set" rule, the "time limit" rule in order to prevent stalling and limit the camping game, and of course, we evolve to apply "double blind pick", "counter pick stage" and "Dave stupid rule" (I think thats how you say it - enable picking a stage that you have already won.
And don't get me wrong, I don't like playing on Sector Z, Yoshi or Pokemon, and I'm always picking DL or PC as a CP. But we just haven't had enough complaining on players side to change it anyways. It is just what people want.

As Rith said, we are discussing the rules right now for this next tournament. I want to make it more comfortable for everybody including the outsiders, probably some stages are going to be ban from the list, but i highly doubt it Hyrule is going to be one =].