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Alright, Lucas is NOT better than Ness.

Powda

Smash Apprentice
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I guess my point is levitas, Is it is one thing to discuss how to beat a character, it is another to discuss why one character is better than another.

I feel this thread is helpful to new people who are deciding between playing lucas and ness, but outside of that...it should be, "How to beat ness with lucas" Or i see no applicable use to this thread at all. Nothing in this thread has helped my gameplay.
 

Pat/Pro

Smash Ace
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Listen Ness is still a very good character. But Lucas is clearly better. I already made my points and I dont want to repeat them. I guess I will do that after i get incorrectly flamed. Ness has more counters than Lucas and plain and simple that is what matters most in tournaments.

Levitas,
"Ness's Up b is better."
I would love for you to explain that to me haha. Its much easier to get spike and off stage knockback kills with Lucas up b since it doesnt stop once it hits. I am not saying you are 100% wrong but from what ive noticed its actually not even close.


GolfG,

You seem like a smart kid and you had valid points but some things I have to disagree with.

"Gamebattles is nothing. That is not a fact you should dispute, because it is widely agreed upon by anyone who both knows what they're doing and participates in Gamebattles."
There are alot of top flight players that play on gamebattles. To say its nothing is rediculous. Four of the best melee players from NE are on it alone in myself, cort, krazyjones, and hayato all of which would beat ademisk. There are a TON of good people on there. And for now thats all we have until they start having bigger tourneys.

"Before saying that you haven't seen any tournament-scene names, take a look back and realize that there's no reason that Mew2king is better than me at Brawl"
Oh really? Is that why the two finalists in nintendos national tournament were two melee pros? And guess who won, KDJ i.e. the best melee player. What a coincidence. I would be shocked if the best melee players werent didnt end up being the best brawl players until they retire.

Please dont tell me I dont know what im talking about. All the best players in the country are from the East Coast for smash not from Michigan. I have 5 friends alone that could beat any ness player in the world. And thats not me being a spouting newb thats a fact.

Earthbound,
"LOL Dude... Lucas nair is not as good as Ness'"
Wrong lucas n air is better than Ness'. Have you ever even played a good Lucas? Its arguably his best aerial.
 

Levitas

the moon
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You'll note that GofG is not from michigan. I hope you're not calling me out.

That said, Ann Arbor does have a significant smash scene. At our last tournament, Vidjo came up, Needle of Juntah (who's been ****** the midwest) was there, Dope was there, Anther was there, Scotu was running it. Don't insult my smash scene.

As far as PK thunder, Ness's PKT is better, Lucas's recovery with PKT is better. Ness can juggle people much more easily due to the faster speed that it travels. Also, his tailwhip combos into the bolt. It covers him well due to the faster speed.

Lucas's PKT has gimp potential, but that's really it's only application normally. You don't say "hey, that Ike is over there. I think I'll PK Thunder him" if you're playing lucas. If you're Ness, you're like "I bet that metaknight won't be able to punish my use of PKT"-- the cockyness that comes with having a good projectile is here.

Lucas's Nair and Ness's Nair are used for different things. Ness's Nair has KO potential, and it's high priority allows you to break combos against characters that aren't named G&W, Marth, or Metaknight.

Lucas's Nair is for chaining hits together. It really should be compared to Ness's Fair if anything. And I'd actually prefer Ness's Fair in most situations to Lucas's Nair due to priority.
 

Powda

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Pc chris is from the west coast ;P
Pat / Pro, anyway i could get my hands on vids of your lucas by chance?
 

Pat/Pro

Smash Ace
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Levitas,

I wasnt calling you out. He said if I didnt know you I didnt know what I was talking about. I was pointing out how false that truly was. You were never a well known smasher before the game came out and you come from a region that is typically among the worst when it comes to talented smash players. For instance in melee massachusetts alone could beat your entire region in a crew battle. I dont care if you think that Ann Arbor has a good smash scene when it doesnt. I practice with KDJ and the Turtles on a regular basis so throwing out names like that honestly dont impress me.

As far as the PK thunder argument goes I still have to disagree with you. The parts that it are lacking with Lucas' up b are unnecessary. I dont need a spammable pk thunder when I have pk fire which is much better at doing that. Having a solid recovery and getting easy gimp kills is much more important in a game where people can tend to live forever.

All around Lucas' is better. A year from now when the tier list is someone set and reasonably agreed upon I would be my life that Lucas will be above Ness. Once again they are both good but for tournament viability Lucas is a better character to main, plain and simple.

You are really just arguing for the sake of arguing at this point. In one post you say "Lucas is better though." And then in another when someone says the same thing you say "no matter how many times you say that to yourself it won't make it true." I mean which is it.

Powda,
I dont right now but ill put some up. And PC Chris lives in New York if im not mistaken.
 

GofG

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Pat/pro, none of the people playing on Gamebattles who I've spoken to (bardull, g-reg, dsf, anther, ice2k, nasty, mikehaze, and t!mmy and t0mmy) take Gamebattles seriously. Just because they participate in it doesn't necessarily mean that they think that it's competitive, or that it's even worth their time. It happens to be a fun way to spend your time (until you get owned by a dsmash spamming pikachu in lag on hyrule, or a fsmash spamming wolf in lag on rumble falles) until a serious competitive ladder comes out. Granted, I was making an assumption based off of some people i'd talked to, but I thought i'd spoken with a good chunk of the competitive players on gamebattles.

The Nintendo national tournament, for similar reasons, is not an accurate measure of skill, but rather, how much one was willing to prepare for a tournament rather than begin to learn the game. Also, a large amount of the tournament was luck, what with items being turned on and all.

I'm surprised you called KDJ the best melee player. There's no doubt that he's good, but the best? I believe at the end of Melee that title went to Mew2king. That's my belief, though it could have easily been PC Chris or Ken or one of a thousand Fox players. Korean DJ was maybe in the top ten.

I suppose I've seen Levitas more than your average smasher because I mained Ness in Melee (was one of like 5, as far as I could tell, which made tournaments easy going. I remember getting a standing ovation from people randomly watching one of my friendlies when I pulled out Corneria Shenanigans on Lord Karn) and that, combined with the fact that I've heard of and watched vids of everyone in the ann harbor smash scene independently, I figured that not hearing of him might be equated with not hearing of someone like Chaddd or The Blue Death. I might be wrong?

Also, my name is most certainly not GolfG.
 

NESSBOUNDER

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As far as PK thunder, Ness's PKT is better, Lucas's recovery with PKT is better. Ness can juggle people much more easily due to the faster speed that it travels. Also, his tailwhip combos into the bolt. It covers him well due to the faster speed.

Lucas's PKT has gimp potential, but that's really it's only application normally. You don't say "hey, that Ike is over there. I think I'll PK Thunder him" if you're playing lucas. If you're Ness, you're like "I bet that metaknight won't be able to punish my use of PKT"-- the cockyness that comes with having a good projectile is here.

Lucas's Nair and Ness's Nair are used for different things. Ness's Nair has KO potential, and it's high priority allows you to break combos against characters that aren't named G&W, Marth, or Metaknight.

Lucas's Nair is for chaining hits together. It really should be compared to Ness's Fair if anything. And I'd actually prefer Ness's Fair in most situations to Lucas's Nair due to priority.
I disagree about Lucas's PK thunder. Quite often, I'll just throw it out at any range and just circle it in front of me. It still fairly hard to punish and makes a much better ranged attack than PK Freeze. *PFFF* And due to its speed, I find Ness's PK thunder1 to be very easy to air dodge, wheras Lucas's is much harder because of how slow it is.

And Ness's Fair is just horrible now IMO, and I've already expressed my dislike of its new feel. Seriously, what good is priority when you'll end up doing about 2% if you're lucky most of the time, and if you use it straight from a short hop you'll most likely be punished even if the move connects? Lucas's neutral A actually has real combo potential into up tilt if he lands it.

It also just feels like one of the most wimpy attacks in the game. Even Jigglypuff's AA combo looks like it hits harder and hurts more than Ness's new PK Shove.
 

Pat/Pro

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GolfG,

If you ask PC he will tell you DJ is better. And DJ beat M2k the last two times they played against each other. DJ never took the game seriously at the end, he never practiced and barely even tried. To say he is maybe top ten shows how little you actually know. The only person DJ ever really lost to was Chu he almost always beat everyone else. You wont find one top smasher who doesnt think that DJ is at worst top 5.
 

GofG

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Again, GolfG is not my name.

I stopped following competitive melee around June. in June, KDJ was power ranked at like 5th in new england. I had no reason to believe that he was better than that, I guess, though I see now that I am wrong.

Still, it's a bit of a stretch to say that that shows how little I actually know. You've gone from fully debated 3 of my points down to only disagreeing with 1 of my points, with no admittance that you were wrong or a rebuttle of any sort. I don't know if it was your intention to try to make me look like a noob, but that's what it looks like to me.
 

Pat/Pro

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Again, GolfG is not my name.

I stopped following competitive melee around June. in June, KDJ was power ranked at like 5th in new england. I had no reason to believe that he was better than that, I guess, though I see now that I am wrong.

Still, it's a bit of a stretch to say that that shows how little I actually know. You've gone from fully debated 3 of my points down to only disagreeing with 1 of my points, with no admittance that you were wrong or a rebuttle of any sort. I don't know if it was your intention to try to make me look like a noob, but that's what it looks like to me.
He was 1st in New England at that time. But it doesnt matter. I am not trying to make you look like a noob but you were the one who told me I knew very little in the first place. There was no reason to argue the other points because it would get us nowhere. For gamebattles the people obviously care if people like greg played 100 games on it in like 3 weeks. Trust me that takes time seeing as how you can only get at max 4 games an hour. Bardull has like 300 haha. And they try and care about it. Most people play neutrals so you dont have to worry about hyrule temple. I already talked about the DJ thing. I can tell you that there are way more people that know chadd than Levitas when it comes to melee. Anything else haha.

But seriously GolfG Lucas is better both are good. What more can I say really? The tier list will come out and we wont even need conversations like this.
 

Conda

aka COBBS - Content Creator (Toronto region)
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Lucas is obviously higher on the tier list.
As for who is better, though... it's all preference in this case. Lucas and Ness are balanced and neither are outright better than the other. HOWEVER, Lucas has an easier time in Brawl's fighting environment than Ness does. Lucas has the right tools to survive and kill in Brawl. Ness has these too, but they aren't in-your-face enough or as easy to execute to grant him a higher spot on the tier list.
Ness needs to work harder than Lucas does for his tier placement.

Sorry if that was pooly worded. It's hard to explain.

Example: Mario and Luigi are very good characters, but they have a chance in hell at being high/top tier because they're basically balanced fighters. Ness is pretty similar. Ness has a lot of neat tricks and an awesome moveset, just like Luigi, but Lucas is higher on the tier list because he has what it takes right off-the-bat.

I'm not saying Lucas is easier to play, I'm saying he has an easier time at advancing in the tier lists at the moment. There are hardly any good arguments as to why Ness is better than Lucas, largely because he isn't (on a tier list level). Ness requires the same amount of edication he did in melee, but he's definately improved since then.


Also, arguing about whose PKTis better is silly. They do different things. Ness's juggles, is quick, very hard to airdodge if you know how to use it. It's tail is also easy to use to block second jumps, forcing people to use their upB.
Lucas's sends people in different directions, which is useful for acting like a remote-controlled aerial attack to edgeguard people. It's easier to avoid because you can usually simply DI in the air so the PKT cannot catch up with you. It's just as hard to airdodge as Ness's PKT, but for different reasons. Lucas needs to twirl his PKT a couple of times to hit with the bolt, and Ness neds to twirl his once and rely on the tail-to-bolt hit.
They're both pretty awesome, and I've done some nasty edgeguarding with Ness's PKT that Lucas's cannot do, and likewise with Lucas's PKT.

As for PK Fire, Lucas's is useful for Lucas's playstyle, but useless if Ness had it. Ness's fits his playstyle more. They're both different and do different things. Lucas's is better for tier placement because it's easy to land and is very useful, while Ness's PK Fire is harder to land, yet just as useful (or more useful, depending on how you utilize it).
No big deal. They're both good side Bs. Use them wisely, and they'll do what they're meant to do.

PK Flash versus Freeze. Well, they just require diferent usage. They're both just as useless and just as useful. They aren't, however, tier-placement breakers, so drop the argument about flash versus freeze.

Lucas has some good moves, Ness has some good moves. Both lead to different playstyles. The gap, however, isn't big enough between the two and I doubt they'll be a tier apart.

Heck, Lucas will be guaranteed a higher spot for his recovery alone.
 

Levitas

the moon
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Geez. Not only did you totally miss the point I was making with my last three or so points, you quote something that I'm pretty sure someone else said and claimed it was me.

The point of continuing this argument is to disect both Ness and Lucas's games, and find all of their strong points.

I never took a stand that contradicted my view that Lucas is better. He is. You know it, I know it. However, that doesn't mean that carrying on a debate doesn't hold any merit.

The course that I would recommend for this thread to take is one of the following:
1. Lucas is better. Debate over. /thread.
2. Discussing what each character brings to the table. dissect the physics and moveset of both characters and help pinpoint arguments that can be used in favor of each character for tier debates. Attempt to remedy weak characteristics of each character by collaboratively strategizing.

It's my opinion that the second option is the only one that holds any merit. So when I bring up points like "Ness's fast pkt and long tail allow it to catch people more easily than Lucas's", I'm trying to start the thread along the second course by example.

This thread is waaaay off track. Pat/pro, watch your fingers as you type GofG. Maybe you won't screw it up. GofG, I'm from Ann Arbor, even though Ademisk can't seem to get that right either.

Edit: Lol, as it turns out, someone on the first page has the same avatar as me. He takes the opposite stance.
 

NESSBOUNDER

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PK flash is most definitely more useful than freeze, and it's a very viable move to use. I find myself using it all the time as a cover, since combos and juggles are pretty much gone in Brawl. PK Freeze is just utterly useless.
 

Yuna

BRoomer
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PK flash is most definitely more useful than freeze, and it's a very viable move to use. I find myself using it all the time as a cover, since combos and juggles are pretty much gone in Brawl. PK Freeze is just utterly useless.
What's stopping me from just rushing you down and beating you senseless while it loads? Heck, it's not even a good edgeguard anymore because of the new airdodging system and auto-sweetspotting.

I don't see how people can argue Ness is better than Lucas. Heck, even Lucas' Fsmash, which is a tree-branch, is stronger than Ness', which is a friggin' baseball bat.
 

NESSBOUNDER

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What's stopping me from just rushing you down and beating you senseless while it loads? Heck, it's not even a good edgeguard anymore because of the new airdodging system and auto-sweetspotting.

I don't see how people can argue Ness is better than Lucas. Heck, even Lucas' Fsmash, which is a tree-branch, is stronger than Ness', which is a friggin' baseball bat.
Because it's already charging. And the release of it is almost instant. By the time I see your character drop, I'll detonate it. Even if you air dodge past it, the lag will have worn off and I'll be totally safe.

PK flash is a spacing and mind games move. The intention isn't to hit with it, but to scare your opponent into jumping or air dodging. There's a very small amount of lag if you detonate it, and even less if you do it from a short jump. You can then harass with PK thunder if they're still in the air, or just chase your opponent yourself with a Fair or something like that.

It's pretty much just a thing to get an opponet out of your hair from above. PK thunder's not so good for that any more because it can just be attacked.

Now I'm sure you'd say "there are better things you could be doing." but even so, PK flash is a very safe option even though it may not amount to anything too obvious. Against an airborn opponent you could try to juggle with Ness's aerials, which is risky since if they're someone like Marth, they'll either just air dodge you or attack. You can use PK thunder to harrass in the air, which is also risky since they can just attack it and then you're left with lag as they land, or you can run away or put up your shield, which can get predictable after a while. So I find that using PK Flash is far from a worthless tactic against opponents who are within juggling distance in the air.

And Lucas's tree branch isn't stronger. But it's got 4% less knockback (wow, huge difference ) and does 10% less damage.

Seriously, the developers could have made it a bit weaker in the knockback department too.
 

GofG

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<3 Yuna.

Welcome to our homely little cottage where we sit, warmed by the everlasting PKF spam, and discuss the intricacies of how Lucas's jab comes out on frame 1.


...I'm becoming too possessive of the lucas boards.

EDIT: Levitas, I'm going to pretend that you live in Ann Harbor, because that is a fantasy that I need to believe in in order to maintain my mental sanity.
 

NESSBOUNDER

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<3 Yuna.

Welcome to our homely little cottage where we sit, warmed by the everlasting PKF spam, and discuss the intricacies of how Lucas's jab comes out on frame 1.


...I'm becoming too possessive of the lucas boards.
Man, I still can't believe his jab comes out on frame one. Has that been re-tested yet, because there's no way the animators could have been that stupid.
 

NESSBOUNDER

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...I don't think the animators got to decide that.
You're probably right.

Sakurai: hey, I want you guys to make Lucas's kick come out on frame 1.

Animator: are you serious? You know that's 1-frame attacks, let alone 1-frame KICKS, are considered bad practice in fighting games? They even tell you not to do that in MUGEN for crying out loud.

Sakurai: Silence! Don't make me delay the game for yet another useless feature that you guys will be having to work on for another 3 months!
 

Yuna

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Man, I still can't believe his jab comes out on frame one. Has that been re-tested yet, because there's no way the animators could have been that stupid.
These are the same idiots who thought Tripping would be a good idea.

Also, PK Flash is an OK move. It's just not that good. The post you wrote that I quoted seemed to speak of it like one of Ness' best moves.
 

NESSBOUNDER

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These are the same idiots who thought Tripping would be a good idea.

Also, PK Flash is an OK move. It's just not that good. The post you wrote that I quoted seemed to speak of it like one of Ness' best moves.
Lol, yes I tend to exaggerate about how good moves are if I personally enjoy using them. PK flash certainly isn't one of Ness's best moves, but it's something that's there and something that works if you want it. Kind of like how some Wolf players like to use his reflector way more than they should because the I-frames are so so sexy.

And Charizard's up B and it's glorious super armor.
 

PK-ow!

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Lol, yes I tend to exaggerate about how good moves are if I personally enjoy using them. PK flash certainly isn't one of Ness's best moves, but it's something that's there and something that works if you want it. Kind of like how some Wolf players like to use his reflector way more than they should because the I-frames are so so sexy.

And Charizard's up B and it's glorious super armor.
Hey man, I think Wolf's relfector is like.. the core of his game. He's a disruption fighter, and that's not even accounting for the invulnerability frames (don't remember if it's superarmor).

If it lands, and it carries no risk, you do it. It's good.

[/off-topic]

You say Flash applies more than Freeze. I contend such - PK Freeze applies greatly in certain matchups, i.e., against Ike. PK Freeze owns Ike. Once Ike's committed to a move (other than that Agile Strike or w/e), PK Freeze just whips him. When he's mobile but caught between groundings, a PK Freeze can move him where you want (thus getting Lucas comfortably in control of spacing), and when Ike is recovering.... that's just a free hit.

Similarly against anyone medium-size or larger with nonfast ground movement.

Flash will always have to do with opponent's choices; you just can't make this move hit someone. Show me a vid contrariwise.
 

PKboy89

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Tuckahoe, don't say anything...lol
Everyone seems to be complaining that Lucas is a lot laggier then Ness. Ness can be pretty **** laggy at times. Lucas's upsmash is laggy...so is his down smash...but ness's bat and yo yo are just as laggy, which do you prefer out of the laggy moves? I'm guessing most people would want the stronger ones...Lucas' PK fire is a lot more dependable then Ness'...Ness' stops them and sets up combos but it also comes out a lot slower and the farther the pk fire goes, the less chance the opponent has to get stuck in it, and its slow speed makes it easy to dodge. Lucas is a lot better when comes to spacing with his pk fire, and you don't even need to b stick either. I'm not saying either one is better, I'm just proving that Ness is just as laggy as Lucas and Lucas has better smash attacks overall. With Ness you gotta be really precise with his baseball bat and hit a tip, but you don't have to Lucas' stick, and its much faster, and the bat tip only kills just teeny bit higher then the stick if you tip it...like 4 percent...I'll go with the dependable killing stick...
 

HRP

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You know, something has been happening to me while playing online in FFAs that I find pretty funny. If I keep on owning with Lucas, match after match, it's almost inevitable that someone will eventually switch to Ness for a match or two and focus on kicking the tar outta me. Strange, eh?
 

Powda

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That happened the other day in friendlies....the ness went home crying.
 

supercake

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look there are two main reasons why lucas is better than ness the rest is superfluous:

1. Lucas has a much better recovery. He can recover THREE ways. Ness has one, which isnt even that good.

2. Lucas can camp and spam MUCH better than ness. bsticked pkfire does the job very well.

some ness defender address these points and stop focusing on stupid things like flash vs freeze or whose bat is better.
 

Conda

aka COBBS - Content Creator (Toronto region)
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Ignoring people's post = awesome. Keep doing it if you want this thread to remain as constructive as it is. -.-
 

Gindler

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I think ness's main advantage over lucas is the fact that he has a spike that can kill at like 5% easy (the dair sweetspotted) it's so ridiculously strong that I know they're going to nerf it in the next installment.
 

ellelaby's younger brother

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Lucas is definately the better character. He's PK Fire makes him great for spacing, his PK Thunder is much better than Ness' because it can continue, his upsmash can ko at like 80 or 90 percent which is better than a yo-yo... I much prefer Lucas then Ness. Yes Lucas has much more lag but if you use him correctly you will find him one of the best characters in the game.
 

CbGreiga

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Lucas only falls to ness in two categories:

1. His PK Fire doesn't get the pillar effect, but gets stronger with each hit

2. PK Volt Tackle isn't as powerful as Ness's but covers more distance

They are pretty evenly matched but Lucas has a definite advantage
 

Smashbros_7

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There are several types of people here.

1.Ness haters who give no good points to Ness and think Lucas>>>>>Ness
2. Rational people who don't force their opinions and have good points.

Which one are you?
(Not pointing to anyone specifically)
 

Neodaft_boy

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There are several types of people here.

1.Ness haters who give no good points to Ness and think Lucas>>>>>Ness
2. Rational people who don't force their opinions and have good points.

Which one are you?
(Not pointing to anyone specifically)
It's true. ^^; ... I'm just a person who likes both characters. I prefer Ness over all but that doesn't stop me from saying Lucas has much better recovery and what seems to be a more usefull PK thunder.

Maybe because Ness' PKT is faster and harder to use makes him frowned upon by Lucas users. o.o

This war will never end XD...
 
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