Alright, Lucas is NOT better than Ness.

[Slike]

I'm sick of it. Ness takes a little more skill to learn. Ness's skills are in the grab, (and I'm the only person on wi-fi that I've EVER seen using the grab.) and the air game. It's just lucas's up smash that makes everyone think he's high tier. Tier is "Can you find my good moves quickly, or will you just give up on me in three seconds?"

 

[A2ZOMG]

The big misconception about Lucas is that he's faster than Ness IIRC. And the truth is he's significantly more laggy, but oriented on spacing and camping stuff. This is noticable in his air game and his Smashes (minus F-smash).

Ness however is better IMO. His aerial game is clearly superior with less lag and much better approach and finisher options. His back throw is a LOT better, he has a really good Dash attack while Lucas doesn't. Also his PK Fire combos into stuff.

 

[Tyr_03]

I play both and find that neither is strictly better than the other. I think it depends a lot on your play style. Ness does tend to take more work to use though but I don't consider that a bad thing.

 

[Radical Dreamer]

No amount of QQing will change the fact that Lucas is better. I'm truly sorry.

 

[Grimjack]

No amount of QQing will change the fact that Lucas is better. I'm truly sorry.

And no matter how many times you say that to yourself it won't make it true.

 

[TechnoMonster]

Ness wins the ditto and is very good but Lucas is a better fighter in close, his PK Thunder goes farther and is better, and his PK fire is more applicable and less punishable with the b-stick. Lucas also has more powerful smashes, and better combos.

I think Ness is very good if you get very good with him, but I think Lucas is better because of his guaranteed setups (n-air and grab), and the spammability of PK fire, and the ability to hit aerial opponents with it effectively.

I don't think anyone who knows what they're talking about was debating this too much; I know Simna fervently believes Ness is better, and I wouldn't be upset at all if Lucas moved down to bottom tier and Ness moved up to top tier.

 

[Troglodyte]

I wouldn't describe myself as an expert in any sense of the word, but it seems to boil down to playstyles-- Lucas is VERY dependent on his b moves, and gets wrecked in the air. Lucas' usmash is, quite frankly, a liability in most situations. The lag is insane and it's super easy to punish. PK Freeze into a usmash seems decent, but still... I tend to avoid usmash simply because it's so slow.

Ness, on the other hand, is great in the air, less dependent on his B moves, and has excellent grabs. It boils down to playstyle, in my opinion. I prefer Lucas, but I can't say that he's hands-down better than Ness. Likewise, I have a friend who OWNS with Ness but can't claim that Ness is better than Lucas.

 

[The_Court_Jester]

Lucas > Ness on the ground, Ness >>> Lucas in the air.

All around, Ness is a bit better, but not WOMG NESS PWNS LUCAS LAWL. Ness has easier kill moves and Lucas has less moves on Ness then Ness has on Lucas. Let's see...

All of Ness' aerials except Nair > Lucas'

All of Lucas smashes except DSmash

All of Lucas tilts except Dtilt

Ness grab and AAA combo > Lucas'

Ness' throws > Lucas' throws

The list goes on... But, Ness has a little bit more and Lucas ups over Ness has less advantages then vice-versa. Especially Ness' air game. The second most powerful spike, a great, disjointed Fair, a Bair for a fantastic kill move, a Uair that isn't bad for juggling, and a quick Nair. Lucas is pretty sweet on the ground, but Ness holds his own better on the ground then Lucas does in the air, so Ness is a little bit better.

 

[Ebonyks]

They both have pro's and con's, and i prefer lucas

Ness has a much better set of grabs, air attacks, and dash attack.

Lucas has much better tilts, and smash attacks.

Lucas has a better set of specials imo, but it's a matter of personal preference. PK fire is a better spacing tool, pk freeze pwns pk flash, his magnet shield is better, and his pk thunder is easier to use and goes through enemies.

I prefer lucas, but it's a matter of playstyles and preferences imo.

 

[eSilverh]

Because Lucas' PKT goes through other players, I will never go back to Ness.

Honestly, I mained Ness in melee and now have Post Traumatic Stress because someone would jump out and EAT MY PKT.

Aaaauuuggghhhhh!!!!

Also, can Ness short-hop as low as Lucas?

 

[Levitas]

Here we go again. Lucas has a tier 1 recovery. He gets back from everywhere. It's better than pit's (by far), of course worse than MK's, better than fox's, better than sooo many characters. You have to kill him by knocking him past a death zone.

Ness, by contrast, has a horrible recovery that restricts survivability past a critical point. His fair, uair, and nair cover his double jump well. After his jump's over, he's vulnerable. If he needs to use his PKT2, he's screwed. There are THREE ways to gimp Ness's PKT, and FIVE if you have projectiles. Let me list them for you.
1. Jump down, attack PKT (applies to lucas, prefered)
2. Jump down, get hit by PKT on purpose (does not apply to lucas)
3. Jump down, get hit by PKT2, survive (you have the benefit of being sent the ideal angle to survive this, and have the benefit of having a stage to tech off of. PKT2 hitting something halves the distance it travels. Very much NOT applicable to lucas)
4. (Projectilists) hit bolt with projectile (applicable to lucas)
5. (Projectilists) hit PKT2 with projectile (halves distance of PKT2, does not affect lucas).
One more not regarding PKT2 recovery: Lucas can recover from farther away. This makes it impossible for many characters to go offstage to attack his bolt, and the tighter circle it weaves makes it more difficult to do so anyway. Factor in Zap jumping to avoid edgeguarding (which is amazing) and the option of tethering if you're closeish, and you have a clear winner in recovery.

In terms of "combos", Ness excells. However, they are escapable in most circumstances. His robust aerial priority is a great asset for him as well. Ness is above average when fighting and not recovering. In fact, his back-throw kills pretty much anyone at 130%. That's nuts.

On the other hand, lucas likes to sit back and PK fire things away with wavebouncing. It's a really safe, campy technique. Lucas has fast tilts that have disjointed hitboxes (with proper spacing have more priority than Ness's tilts), a better Fsmash, a Dsmash that's suited for a couple of tricks, spotdodge punishment, and early KOs, but a worse grab game. His aerials are lacking when compared to Ness, but they're still good. Fair links to ftilt to fair, and Nair to tilt is a staple of his game.

I say the ability to camp and recover >>> the ability to get gimped and inability to camp, even with a bit more aerial priority.

Edit: whoops, I forgot to even mention that lucas has TWO spikes that are both disjointed. Oh, and that his PKT is a ridiculous edgeguard on characters like Ike and Marth (stagespike ftw). Or that his double-jump is fast.

Edit 2: wOOt, argument won, my post count is 1337. I humbly accept your apology, Ness advocates.

 

[TheKneeOfJustice]

Jester kind of hit the nail on the head with ground game vs aerial game. I'd say Lucas is better because his projectile is more conducive to camping, and his ground game is very good. You don't need a particularly strong aerial game because when most aerials hit shields, bad times ensue. However, Lucas has a nair which is rather adept at stabbing shields, and when an aerial hits his own, his grab is long enough to still make contact.

 

[Tyr_03]

lol I wonder if when Melee had first come out if everyone had played Ness rather than flocking to Marth, Sheik and Falco if he could've been top tier? I say play who fits your style. It's far too early to say that any character is definitevely better than another in Brawl.

 

[Levitas]

Metaknight's better than captain falcon.

 

[Smashbros_7]

No amount of QQing will change the fact that Lucas is better. I'm truly sorry.

Your that gay troll that shows up everywhere. Get the hell outta of here. Im serious get out now.

 

[GofG]

Smashbros_7, personal attacks aren't permitted on smashboards, and I would advise you to not make them.

I personally believe that Lucas will place higher on the tiers.

 

[Deeja]

Maybe, but I AM better with Lucas than Ness.

 

[Hardcorenesser]

Ness's skills include ultimate air game, very powerful throws, and wicked pkt mindgames. he just has a much harder learning curve then Lucas. Lucas owns Ness in some aspects, and Ness owns Lucas in some aspects. imo ness vs lucas ness wins (in an actual match). it mostly depends on the player. there need not be any more comparing. no more! it all has to do with your personal opinions. there is no fact that proves one is superior to the other. until Masahiro Sakurai says one is better then the other, THEY ARE EQUAL!!!!! so the next person that feels like saying one is better than the other can just gtfo. everyone just stfu. have a mod annihilate this thread. it is full of ****.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Ness's skills include ultimate air game, very powerful throws, and wicked pkt mindgames. he just has a much harder learning curve then Lucas. Lucas owns Ness in some aspects, and Ness owns Lucas in some aspects. imo ness vs lucas ness wins (in an actual match). it mostly depends on the player. there need not be any more comparing. no more! it all has to do with your personal opinions. there is no fact that proves one is superior to the other. until Masahiro Sakurai says one is better then the other, THEY ARE EQUAL!!!!! so the next person that feels like saying one is better than the other can just gtfo. everyone just stfu. have a mod annihilate this thread. it is full of ****.

You're always making these silly angry posts and it really gets on my nerves.

We don't NEED Sakurai to tell us which characters are better than others, because most of the time, he'll be wrong.

It's perfectly acceptable to compare character A to character B and make an assessment over which one is more capable.

Look at Levitas's post back there, he actually has solid points with which to argue. You don't make any of those. It's always the same "it depends on the player" or "don't compare, they're different characters" etc. etc.

Characters in fighting games boil down to hitboxes and frame data. It is nothing to do with personal opinions, it's to do with a character's capability.

And this whole misconception about people thinking Lucas is better because of his up smash is ridiculous. People think Lucas is better because he has ACTUAL real combos, disjointed hitboxes everywhere, crazy lack of lag on almost every non-smash attack he has, great priority, and superior recovery.

Ness is just much safer to use at close quarter combat and it's arguable that his KO moves are more realiable, because Lucas's stick is a better KO move than pretty much anything else Ness can do at that %. PK Thunder 2 is awesome but requires about the same setup as Lucas's up smash, his bat is much slower and harder to hit with, and his back throw and Bair don't KO until a bit later.

Ness is just a more all-around safer character to play who racks up damage quickly and safely at close range and who KOs later, and doesn't have blind spots like Lucas does. However, Lucas still has the upper hand in everything but speed and damage dealing capacity.

 

[Fredd]

Stfu with the Ness vs. Lucas comaparisons!

-Gahhhhh-

I`m sure the Lucas Character specific section is just as fed up as the Ness Character specific section.
Why must people feel the need to compare the two!?

/end rant ​

 

[Hardcorenesser]

You're always making these silly angry posts and it really gets on my nerves.

We don't NEED Sakurai to tell us which characters are better than others, because most of the time, he'll be wrong.

It's perfectly acceptable to compare character A to character B and make an assessment over which one is more capable.

Look at Levitas's post back there, he actually has solid points with which to argue. You don't make any of those. It's always the same "it depends on the player" or "don't compare, they're different characters" etc. etc.

Characters in fighting games boil down to hitboxes and frame data. It is nothing to do with personal opinions, it's to do with a character's capability.

And this whole misconception about people thinking Lucas is better because of his up smash is ridiculous. People think Lucas is better because he has ACTUAL real combos, disjointed hitboxes everywhere, crazy lack of lag on almost every non-smash attack he has, great priority, and superior recovery.

Ness is just much safer to use at close quarter combat and it's arguable that his KO moves are more realiable, because Lucas's stick is a better KO move than pretty much anything else Ness can do at that %. PK Thunder 2 is awesome but requires about the same setup as Lucas's up smash, his bat is much slower and harder to hit with, and his back throw and Bair don't KO until a bit later.

Ness is just a more all-around safer character to play who racks up damage quickly and safely at close range and who KOs later, and doesn't have blind spots like Lucas does. However, Lucas still has the upper hand in everything but speed and damage dealing capacity.

...silly? T_T

and normally i just say they are too different cuz i am out of ideas or something. and why should i mention that stuff when Levitas already did? and it does depend on the player. the video game doesn't play itself you know. the character skills have some effect on a match, but not so much that a n00b could beat a pro. there is no way to determine who is more capable. it just comes to how persuasive your arguement is (IMO). besides, that post was just my opinion so don't be hatin'. and are you saying it doesn't depend on the character? and when i say that they are too different to compare i am saying exactly what ademisk said at one point. he actually put up a eally good arguement. and sakurai is right about everything. after all, he did make the game... besides, if one side wins, Ness/Lucas players will always have an excuse for losing. i hate that. no flaming. it isn't my fault my arguement sucks, and that you are so much better at arguing. just because your argument is clearly superior to mine doesn't mean you are right.


i was never good at arguements so please nobody argue with me.





AGAIN MOST OF THIS WAS IN MY OPINION SO DO NOT FLAME ME!!!!!!!!

you guys are such joes... lol.

 

[Earthbound360]

T_T
I'm tired of this frustrating argument.

I hate Lucas players who say that he is so much better in every way and that Ness has nothing on him.
BUT
I also hate it when Ness players do the EXACT SAME THING!!!

Cant we just end this war!? I need to get my comparison thread up soon.

 

[Powda]

I play both ness and Lucas, and I gotta say they both have their place. Depending on what character I'm up against I'll decide on which...but to say one is better than the other is ********...this thread is phail go home.

 

[Evilpenguin]

I'm sick of it. Ness takes a little more skill to learn. Ness's skills are in the grab, (and I'm the only person on wi-fi that I've EVER seen using the grab.) and the air game. It's just lucas's up smash that makes everyone think he's high tier. Tier is "Can you find my good moves quickly, or will you just give up on me in three seconds?"

 

[Pat/Pro]

Lucas is better seriously. Most of you guys have no idea what you are talking about and are probably horrible. Seeing as how I have never seen any of your names in any form of competitive smash take it from someone who knows the truth of this style fighting game. Although Ness does well in Lucas v Ness, the number of counters to ness is noticeably higher than those to lucas. This is mostly due to the fact that his B moves are better than ness'. It allows Lucas to camp, gimp, etc. Also Lucas' neutral and down airs blow ness' out of the water. Just look at the standings for the most prominent ladder right now gamebattles. There are 2 Lucas players in the top 25 and I dont even think there is a ness player in the top 100. Now some of that is due to the fact that people wanted to try lucas out and decided to stick with him but mainly its because he is a better character. Just because you do well against your brother with ness, doesnt make him better.

 

[Levitas]

Ladders are crap. Online is crap. Personal attacks are crap.

Lucas's side b (and down b though it has limited relavence) is the only useful move that's better than Ness's b moves. Ness's Up b is better.

Lucas is better though.

 

[Trozz]

Everything has already been said before. It's only a matter of time before everything gets said again, unless someone makes a sticky discouraging it.

Just listen to Levitas.

 

[tddavis]

how is ness's ub B better? he has a better PKT2. Lucas PK thunder does less damage but you can push people off the screen with it. Knock back trumps damage in a game like smash. Ness and lucas PK thunders have different strengths I wouldn't call either one better. Speed and damage vs slow and knockback.

 

[Earthbound360]

Lucas is better seriously. Most of you guys have no idea what you are talking about and are probably horrible. Seeing as how I have never seen any of your names in any form of competitive smash take it from someone who knows the truth of this style fighting game. Although Ness does well in Lucas v Ness, the number of counters to ness is noticeably higher than those to lucas. This is mostly due to the fact that his B moves are better than ness'. It allows Lucas to camp, gimp, etc. Also Lucas' neutral and down airs blow ness' out of the water. Just look at the standings for the most prominent ladder right now gamebattles. There are 2 Lucas players in the top 25 and I dont even think there is a ness player in the top 100. Now some of that is due to the fact that people wanted to try lucas out and decided to stick with him but mainly its because he is a better character. Just because you do well against your brother with ness, doesnt make him better.

LOL
Dude... Lucas nair is not as good as Ness'
And though his dair is better to me, Ness' spike is still a viscious weapon that some people still consider better than Lucas.

Ladders dont matter now. Its just about character popularity as it stands. Thats just like applying the "beat your brother" thing to the current Brawlers.

Ness PKT = Lucas'
They are just down to preference in all honesty. A lot of Lucas players wont go back to Ness' poor controlled PKT and I myself cannot standthe low speed of Lucas'. Ness' is better at juggling and quick combos. Lucas' racks up damage and edgeguards.

 

[GofG]

Lucas is better seriously. Most of you guys have no idea what you are talking about and are probably horrible. Seeing as how I have never seen any of your names in any form of competitive smash take it from someone who knows the truth of this style fighting game. Although Ness does well in Lucas v Ness, the number of counters to ness is noticeably higher than those to lucas. This is mostly due to the fact that his B moves are better than ness'. It allows Lucas to camp, gimp, etc. Also Lucas' neutral and down airs blow ness' out of the water. Just look at the standings for the most prominent ladder right now gamebattles. There are 2 Lucas players in the top 25 and I dont even think there is a ness player in the top 100. Now some of that is due to the fact that people wanted to try lucas out and decided to stick with him but mainly its because he is a better character. Just because you do well against your brother with ness, doesnt make him better.

This is smashboards. This isn't gamefaqs, this isn't nsider, this isn't ****ing www.ilovebrawl.com. You don't have to concern yourself with anyone who acts like you described, because people like that don't last very long on smashboards.

Gamebattles is nothing. That is not a fact you should dispute, because it is widely agreed upon by anyone who both knows what they're doing and participates in Gamebattles. If Ademisk wanted to get involved in Gamebattles, then guess what, there'd be a Ness in the top 25.

You can't make a blanket statement that says that Ness has worse nairs and dairs that Lucas. Lucas's nair cannot be compared to Ness's nair, thats stupid. Lucas's nair is much more similar to Ness's fair. The fact is Lucas's nair accomplishes what Ness's fair does, except it does it better, with less range.

Before saying that you haven't seen any tournament-scene names, take a look back and realize that there's no reason that Mew2king is better than me at Brawl, because skill at Melee does carry over to skill at Brawl, but only to a certain threshhold. Both mew2king and I were past that threshold in Melee, so we started out roughly equal in Brawl. Tournament names mean nothing, because there haven't been any major tournaments in brawl yet, except Smashboard's tournament, and look at that, a new name came out of that, Bardull.

You claim to know the true nature of this fighter. That's not very difficult to figure out. One must simply read Gimpy's threads on allisbrawl and read some of the masterfully written threads by people like Card and Scar in the general discussion. So what makes you think the people in this thread don't?

Guess what, my good friend. If you haven't seen Levitas in the competitive scene, then you don't know what you're talking about. Go rethink things before throwing insults out randomly.

 

[TechnoMonster]

Can't we all just get along?

 

[Aevin]

At a recent tourney, I played Ness and Lucas and got comments that surprised me.

1. Ness is obviously better than Lucas.
2. YOUR Ness is obviously better than your Lucas.

I disagree on both counts, just as strongly as I disagree that Lucas is better than Ness. Lucas's attacks leave him vulnerable. He's quick with tilts and aerials, and slow and powerful with most smashes, but I know that if the blows don't connect properly, Lucas is gonna get slammed. This is most apparent in his grabs, his smashes, and his relatively short-ranged or otherwise counterable aerials.

With Ness, if a hit misses, he can immediately follow up with another high priority aerial. His yoyos don't leave him very vulnerable at all--if he "misses" with the initial hit, he can hold it out as a kind of shield, or release at the right moment to counter an attack from several different directions. Only opponents who are patient enough to wait these moves out punish him for it.

As for MY Ness being better than my Lucas ... People thought so because he was better against the characters they played, and because my Lu was a bit ... off that day.

 

[GhosTim14]

Can't we all just get along?

Apparently, not.

Here is my statement i main Zelda, Lucas, Pikachu, and Fox.

I was ness since ssb, but when lucas came along I liked his play style better so i switched.

Both characters have their advantages and disadvantages over the other one, but it isn't worth arguing about.

I'm not saying one is better than the other, but even so, who cares, if you like lucas then be lucas, if you like ness than be ness. It isn't that hard to understand.

If you are a good enough player you can overcome their disadvantages.

SO STOP ARGUING

Thats all I am saying.

 

[Levitas]

Ok, how about instead of arguing, we start debating.

The idea is to SUPPORT your claims. Instead of saying lucas has a better recovery, talk about his longer range pkt, his zap jump, his magnet pull, his tethering, and how ness get's gimped 3 ways more than lucas when it comes to pkt2.

It should be common sense to tournament goers that some characters are better than others. For example, Metaknight is better than captain falcon. His kills are better, his moves are faster, stronger, have more priority, his recovery's better. Metaknight is better.

It then follows that if two players of equal skill play each other with different characters, one will have the advantage. If you don't follow me to this point, you probably should reread the previous claims I'm making.

Ness players (and I'm saying this as a Ness player throughout melee) have a tendency to say that it's on the player to overcome any matchup disadvantage that comes with playing Ness. This is unreasonable. If it were true that good players overcome matchup disadvantages, we wouldn't be seeing any patterns as to which characters win national tournaments. It's also conceited to think that Ness players can overcome a Ness vs Metaknight match (for example) because the Ness player can play smarter than the metaknight player. People who play lower tiers aren't any smarter intrinsically than higher tier players.

Does any of this make sense? I'd like to continue this debate so long as people keep bringing up REAL points that support their claims.

PS. I've got footage of my Ness vs a Metaknight in a tournament if anyone wants me to upload it.

 

[Zaim2]

PS. I've got footage of my Ness vs a Metaknight in a tournament if anyone wants me to upload it.

I'm not even in this argument, but do you think the answer will be anything other than yes? You should've just posted it straight away.

 

[Powda]

What are you guys trying to get out of this thread?

1. Do you want all Lucas players to switch to ness?
2. Do you want all Lucas players to bow down to you because you picked a more powerful character?
3. Do you want Lucas players to stop ranting in your forums about how good lucas is?
4. Are you tired of getting paired up against newb Lucas players that you in turn smash?

I really have no idea what this thread could possible do for anyone.
Once again.
/phail

 

[Levitas]

Um, the point of debating is to discuss as many facets of each character as possible. If we all do it right, we'll end up with a much greater knowledge of both characters, which will improve both our Lucases and our Nesses. Seeing as most of us play either Lucas or Ness, that should be a pretty good reason to continue.

However, this shouldn't be a "lol, lucas's usmash" from now on. Valid points only.

Zaim: I'll split the vid today, and it should be up sometime later.

 

[Powda]

Alright then while we're at it umm...lucas is better than pit.
America is better than England.
Ali could be bruce lee.
My dad can beat up your dad.

/sarcasm off

 

[supercake]

ok I agree with levitas and the point he made earlier.

Also I can guarantee you 99% that lucas will end up higher than ness on the tier list barring some gamebreaking discovery. Its just going to happen. now I will wait patiently for the first person to say tires don mater.

 

[Levitas]

Alright then while we're at it umm...lucas is better than pit.

Actually, this will definately be an important argument if we expect lucas to be high tier. It may be a good idea to prepare an argument now. Funny that you chose that matchup.