ALBD Re: Zelda Matchup Redisscussion [Topic: Luigi]

[JigglyZelda003]

This is the rediscussion thread to partner with out regular matchup discussion thread. Same rules apply as the matchup thread. Rediscussion thread is only starting with Mario but we can vote on who else to redisscuss after him. Discussion here will run about 3-4 days depending on activity and then we shall move on.



this will be the format for summary as follows:

Pros: The advantages zelda has over that character
Cons: The advantages that character has over zelda
Key Moves: important moves zelda needs in that match up
CounterPick Stage (Wii U): The recommended counterpick for that match up
CounterPick Stage (3DS): The recommended counterpick for that match up
Custom Temple: An indepth analysis on custom Zelda vs Custom foes *only moves, no equipment*
Score: The result of the data. Example/ 60-40 50-50 40-60, Custom score the results for customs


summary will be reposted in matchup thread so be sure to look there for results.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

reserved for thingies'

 

[BJN39]

I'm gonna expect a lot more 4:6s this time around.


Just like Brawl, as the game develops our MUs start to sink.

 

[Zylach]

I recall updating my opinion of Mario in the regular MU discussion thread which was 4:6 I believe. Since I've already stated it, I won't put my opinion here again. I'll just say that WI is overflowing with Mario mains right now so I have the MU experience to say that this is never fun. I'm using here too and I'd suggest everyone else use a secondary as well.

As for the trend BJN mentioned, I agree as well. The advancement of the metagame is hurting Zelda a lot. I face a Ganon/Zard player on a regular basis and have found it more and more difficult to use Zelda against him because he's figuring out how she works and I can't really answer because she doesn't have options. I've found MU's that I was confident about several months ago start to falter. Especially MU's like bowser jr. whom I thought to be in our favor as of 3 months ago and is now heavily out of our favor. The same goes for WFT and Olimar. Everything I thought we had, we're now losing lol. It's pushing more and more to making Zelda a secondary rather than a primary and it makes me incredibly sad.

 

[BJN39]

Something I will say on the topic of the degeneration of Zelda's numbers as the game advances is that the scoring changes could have multiple factors in mind in addition, such as if the player you play is getting better/changing their style and you haven't adapted yet it could make a MU seem way worse than before, or...No, literally, I'd call it Zelda syndrome, where especially because of our past experience in viability drop, we're more willing to quickly put Zelda down. Also, many people have differing viewpoints on what a 'bad' or 'good' MU is, or how drastic it is. (See: Rosalinas. They had labels stating they used 65:35 as only "moderate advantage" when most people consider that AFAIK "bordering on hard counter")

I just want to basically say that lets not jump ship and number them all trash yet.

That said I still expect a few of Zelda's numbers to get worse, mostly because some were before certain relevant things were known, like, we scored Luigi before his Dthrow was exposed as crazy. Though, many Zeldas already re-scored that down. Not many characters have similar undiscovered craziness to make Zelda's MUs go down on a wide scale.

Edit : Also, JigglyZelda I hope you don't mind I fixed the colon in the "topic" bracket (Was accidentally connect to Mario instead of Topic.) since OCD.

 

[Darktundra]

I recall updating my opinion of Mario in the regular MU discussion thread which was 4:6 I believe. Since I've already stated it, I won't put my opinion here again. I'll just say that WI is overflowing with Mario mains right now so I have the MU experience to say that this is never fun. I'm using here too and I'd suggest everyone else use a secondary as well.

As for the trend BJN mentioned, I agree as well. The advancement of the metagame is hurting Zelda a lot. I face a Ganon/Zard player on a regular basis and have found it more and more difficult to use Zelda against him because he's figuring out how she works and I can't really answer because she doesn't have options. I've found MU's that I was confident about several months ago start to falter. Especially MU's like bowser jr. whom I thought to be in our favor as of 3 months ago and is now heavily out of our favor. The same goes for WFT and Olimar. Everything I thought we had, we're now losing lol. It's pushing more and more to making Zelda a secondary rather than a primary and it makes me incredibly sad.

Anyone who uses Zelda can and should not fear failure. The result that she brings competitively are the lowest among the cast of the game. So what there is next to no favorable match ups as the meta advances, with great fundamentals and impossibly high patience anything can and will happen.
DO IT!
JUST DO IT.
DON'T LET YOUR DREAMS BE DREAMS
YESTERDAY YOU SAID TOMORROW
SO JUST DO IT!
YES YOU CAN

 

[JigglyZelda003]

@ Zylach I think as the meta continues we just need to become more what Aero rated Zelda "turtle aggressive" I've already found that it really fits her because all she can truly do sometimes is turtle till you get that one action and then you turn into Cammy and aggro until they die or you get hit.

Farores aside Zelda doesn't carry her player like some other characters do, Zelda's players carry her because she's just not that great but she does have some good things going for her that some characters don't have. Even if you regulate her to #2 just remember that your not alone on the Zeldawful train we're all here together :D


imo Wii Fit doesn't beat Zelda hard, its roughly even in vanilla, customs are another thing but idk about those. /macchiato

would someone care to invite the Marios? I am on mobile lol

 

[Zylach]

I agree with fitting the profile of turtle aggressive as that's how I see myself playing her recently. I actually faced a Megaman on FG not too long ago who would literally not do anything unsafe. He would jump over me while throwing his metal blade, then dair, then land with some lemons, retreat with lemons, then jump over with metal blade again. That match went to time because all I could do was sit in shield since reflecting his stuff would have done nothing as he was so mobile while throwing it all and I wasn't fast enough to catch up to him. That playstyle doesn't work against highly mobile opponents unless the character has good projectiles which we don't.

Also, for WFT, I thought originally that it was heavily in our favor because we outrange her and we absolutely do but her projectile game can be tricky to deal with and she's actually fairly difficult to punish. I played one of the best WFT's (perhaps the only) in Chicago not too long ago and we were about even. She's mobile and can actually pressure our shield with her aerials since she can land with hers. It's also really difficult to deal with her offstage because she can cover her recovery so well and misspacing anything means getting dunked. It feels even. Maybe slightly in our favor because we have a better time killing her than she does us.

I've just recently found it difficult to play Zelda at the level necessary to win against high level play. And that's the thing. I want to win and doing that feels easier with other characters as I get better and face better players. At the same time, I see Nairo playing her at a top level so I know it's possible. Maybe it's just me transitioning to a different playstyle as I get better. Either way, I'll still play Zelda as much as possible.

 

[Xeze]

I don't have much experience vs Zelda, but I'll give my two cents anyway.

Both Mario and Zelda have kinda a hard time approaching each other. Zelda can either powershield or use neutral B to counter Mario's fireballs and her moves outrange Mario's. On the other side, she can't really do much to approach Mario either.
This seems a bit basic but DON'T use Din's Fire against a Mario player, specially if he has FLUDD fully charged. He can proceed to push you offstage, where Zelda will become helpless and it's a free KO.
The problem for Zelda is that once Mario's in, she gets combo'ed a lot. He has a bit of a hard time securing the KO against her though.

Overall I feel it's either 4:6 or 45:55

 

[Macchiato]

I agree with fitting the profile of turtle aggressive as that's how I see myself playing her recently. I actually faced a Megaman on FG not too long ago who would literally not do anything unsafe. He would jump over me while throwing his metal blade, then dair, then land with some lemons, retreat with lemons, then jump over with metal blade again. That match went to time because all I could do was sit in shield since reflecting his stuff would have done nothing as he was so mobile while throwing it all and I wasn't fast enough to catch up to him. That playstyle doesn't work against highly mobile opponents unless the character has good projectiles which we don't.

Also, for WFT, I thought originally that it was heavily in our favor because we outrange her and we absolutely do but her projectile game can be tricky to deal with and she's actually fairly difficult to punish. I played one of the best WFT's (perhaps the only) in Chicago not too long ago and we were about even. She's mobile and can actually pressure our shield with her aerials since she can land with hers. It's also really difficult to deal with her offstage because she can cover her recovery so well and misspacing anything means getting dunked. It feels even. Maybe slightly in our favor because we have a better time killing her than she does us.

I've just recently found it difficult to play Zelda at the level necessary to win against high level play. And that's the thing. I want to win and doing that feels easier with other characters as I get better and face better players. At the same time, I see Nairo playing her at a top level so I know it's possible. Maybe it's just me transitioning to a different playstyle as I get better. Either way, I'll still play Zelda as much as possible.

@ Zylach I think as the meta continues we just need to become more what Aero rated Zelda "turtle aggressive" I've already found that it really fits her because all she can truly do sometimes is turtle till you get that one action and then you turn into Cammy and aggro until they die or you get hit.

Farores aside Zelda doesn't carry her player like some other characters do, Zelda's players carry her because she's just not that great but she does have some good things going for her that some characters don't have. Even if you regulate her to #2 just remember that your not alone on the Zeldawful train we're all here together :D


imo Wii Fit doesn't beat Zelda hard, its roughly even in vanilla, customs are another thing but idk about those. /macchiato

would someone care to invite the Marios? I am on mobile lol

No, WiiFit kills p bad. She pressures her, juggles her, and can edgeguard her effectively. WiiFit is more mobile too which is a big problem for zelda and her crouch can help make many of Zelda's moves whiff. Due to Zelda being very laggy, WiiFit can get a 60-70% combo of with just a nair. Edgeguarding Zelda is quite easy due to Header having many active frames allow her to catch zelda during reappearance. WiiFit just runs circles around her. WiiFit is also great at baiing and Zelda is p easy to bait out.

With customs, WiiFit gets more damaging combos and a great oos option for 30%. The header will pressure her really well and making approach an ever bigger hell for Zelda. Steady breathing will probably be good for this MU. At elevator percents, an elevator will fail leaving Zelda open to a Usmash which kills her at approximately 70% sweetspotted and makes Zelda's kill moves even MORE unsafe.

I'd say that WiiFit would win 65:35 in Vanilla and probably worse in customs

 

[BJN39]

Firstly Macchi, gorl no. Secondly, we really should try to get back more on-topic. I bet we scared the Marios that glanced in here away. o_x

 

[Macchiato]

Mario? 45:55 in mario's favor for reasons listed above

 

[BJN39]

Also, just gonna tag @SBphiloz4 and @ evmaxy54 sistren since you won't talk on MUs even though you are good Zelda gurls unless I light a din's fire under yew

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

Wii Fit Trainer beats Zelda 65:35? Aka WFT is as hard a matchup as ZSS?

About Mario, does anyone know if you can Nayru's out of his utilt strings? I don't believe so, but I know once he hits you with one utilt you can jump away from the others

 

[Macchiato]

Wii Fit Trainer beats Zelda 65:35? Aka WFT is as hard a matchup as ZSS?

About Mario, does anyone know if you can Nayru's out of his utilt strings? I don't believe so, but I know once he hits you with one utilt you can jump away from the others

You can but for the first few utilts, the crystal will come out without the hitbox so they're probably gonna shield and punish

 

[JigglyZelda003]

yeah its better to jump away from the utilts than try to nayrus out, nayrus is unreliable as a breakthrough move on those utilts.

 

[Macchiato]

It just unreliable on move strings like that tbh

 

[Zylach]

Since we're above Mario, Nayru's Love isn't a good choice against his utilt strings since the hitbox doesn't go low enough to actually get us out. Like others have said, jumping is better.

 

[evmaxy54]

Also, just gonna tag @SBphiloz4 and @ evmaxy54 sistren since you won't talk on MUs even though you are good Zelda gurls unless I light a din's fire under yew

i no nahin but diz metchop suz bei

Though his Utilt strings suck against Zelda, you need to be wary on what Mario does because getting hit by Uair when jumping when he sees you going too high sounds not good for us at all =/

 

[Suicidal_Donuts]

Hmm, let's see what's annoying as Zelda against Mario:

• The Cape
• Mario is faster, not as laggy, better mobility
• As mentioned, Utilt "combos"
• Also as previously mentioned, FLUDD (love Sunshine btw)

Let's see what Zelda has over Mario:

• Better OoS options I think...
• Reach
• Earlier kill potential
• Fireballs aren't really a threat

I listed four for each, but Mario's strengths are greater compared to Zelda's. I'm positive every Zelda here knows what moves to use against him by now in most situations, and what moves not to use in most situations (lol at: Reflected Phantom). I still think the matchup is around 40:60 at most, or 45:55 ('s favor), it's still quite winnable.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

so who should we rediscuss next? On the character list we have up until Robin to do rediscussions of characters.

 

[Macchiato]

so who should we rediscuss next? On the character list we have up until Robin to do rediscussions of characters.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

somebody wants to start some drama lol

 

[Macchiato]

somebody wants to start some drama lol

No I just wanna see why its that bad. I can see 40-60 but people were throwing out 30-70s for that MU

 

[JigglyZelda003]

No I just wanna see why its that bad. I can see 40-60 but people were throwing out 30-70s for that MU

go beat up some roll glory zeldawfuls, its really bad lol

 

[Macchiato]

go beat up some roll glory zeldawfuls, its really bad lol

I've played a bunch of Zeldas in that MU. It's bad but not that bad imo. Idk, when I used to use Zelda i liked the MU

 

[Zylach]

None of Zelda's MU's are 30:70 imo. The closest we get is probably Sheik or Cfal and those are probably solid 40:60's.

 

[Macchiato]

None of Zelda's MU's are 30:70 imo. The closest we get is probably Sheik or Cfal and those are probably solid 40:60's.

Captain Falcon? HmMmMmM that's another top/high tier MU I think is even or beneficial to us. The only 35-65 imo is Little Mad

 

[JigglyZelda003]

So by request I guess we're on to Peach.


Peach is bad gurls really bad. The only advantage Zelda really has is that she can kill peach early but that's the only advantage she's ever had. Fighting Peach all we can do is run away and try and punish her in-between the few moments she leaves herself open which if she's playing careful isn't happening much. Fortunately peach customs are meh so other than sleepy toad and some light turnip shenanigans it doesn't make the matchup worse than it already is.

30:70 vanilla and custom

 

[Crudedude]

Zelda has Power and Reach *cough*Looks*cough* over peach I believe. Peach has angles, mobility, quick access to aerials, items, yada yada. So it goes like this, if peach and zelda waltz up to trade blows Zelda would win but smash bros has never been that linear, peach just has so many ways to go at Zelda and zelda has so little way to answer back and peach can answer back to a lot of zelda's moves. I recommend wide stages placed for you to run and teleport safely away to just so you can understand how and where she will pressure you. For Zelda to win I feel like she has to wall peach off the stage where it feels like zelda has complete control of the match there. From my experience a peach off stage is always in my favor cause I can phantom her if she floating too far for me to stomp + there is fair which makes a difference off stage. Dair (off stage) is soo good on peach has bad vertical recovery and if you aim at the back of her head you won't get hit by parasol. Other than off stage peach has complete control of the match. Love and D-Smash is important because it gets her out of your face. With customs I'd say up-b2 can push peach's air approach and recovery but it's hard to pull off.
30:70 but it might also be 35:65 it's not bad match up as in brawl lol

 

[Macchiato]

Peach vs Zelda

I'll be going in Peach's perspective. In neutral, Zelda will need to approach which is already bad. Peach can just cancel Din's Fire by Nair. Phantom is highly telegraphed. Peach can pressure Zelda very effectively and Zelda has no good way of getting away. If she is shielding dair, she can either roll or continue to shield. If she rolls, Peach's Dair can cover a lot of space which might give Zelda trouble. QFR let's peach easily bait Zelda for a combo or a grab. Peach's damage output is better than Zelda's so most the time, Zelda must approach. If Peach ever needs to approach, she has many methods. She has turnips to help approach, she can QFR and bait for an action, float then grab, SH airdodge into an aerial, or just simply float dair. They are p safe. In air to air combat, Peach definitely wins. In the ground, they both have tools for each other. Peach will use her turnips, so Zelda must use Nayru's love very wisely because Peach can bait out nayru's love and get a fair. Due to Peach being in the air a lot, Zelda can read a jump with a FH Fair or a SH Nair. Zelda will need to be patient and watch for a punish to get a DA, Dtilt combo, or a grab combo to build damage. In the air, Peach will just juggle her over and over, Zelda not having an effective landing option is super abusable to Peach due to her having a really disjointed Uair. The Phantom can slow Peach down a bit. Peach Bomber will give Zelda trouble due to Zelda mot being able to punish it well. If she commits, Peach will catch her high lag. It can also punish Zelda from good distances and does good shield damage. On the ledge, It'll cover a lot of options. Something to keep in mind is that, if you're at the location to ledge teleport cancel in the middle of Peach pressure, you can escape.

Zelda can get an Elevator off if Peach mispaces an aerial. Usmash might catch her when she's floating. Fsmash is hard read purposes. A dtilt to uair will kill, as will a jump read with LK. Peach will bair for a fair or find a set-up into fair. If you see Peach throw a turnip and is following it, Shield it because a turnip to fair combo is inescapable. Peach can kill with her Bthrow at the ledge. Catching an airdodge or a landing will net a sweetspotted Usmash which kills extremely early. Her Fsmash will kill varying on which item she uses. Near the upper blastzone, watch for a parasol. A Dtilt at around a hundred will net a parasol confirm. Dash Attack will kill, along with Nair and Bair.

Offstage where Zelda shines might actually be trouble for her. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Peach's parasol has more priority than Dair so she can't be spiked. Her peach bomber however can be stopped by the phantom due to it blocking her way. Peach can float at the ledge and nair/bair to hit Zelda. Even dairing at the ledge will catch Zelda. Zelda needs to learn to hold down when recovering to hit Peach as a mix-up. That will help her a lot. A phantom when recovering can help get peach away from the ledge.

Peach's best stage is BF/MV/DL. She benefits MUCH more than Zelda. Ban those 3 against her. Peach hates lylat due to the tilting messing up her aerial cancels and such. Peach will always ban Lylat. The other two bans will be dependent on playstyle. Campy Peachs will choose DH or CS. Aggro Peachs will pick Halberd, T&C, and Delfino.

Customs are an interesting factor. Zelda NEEDS Squall in this MU to get out of pressure in an instant and thats big. Phantom won't change much. Zelda SHOULD use 1123. Peach will always have Sleepy Toad. Light Veggies give her more approaches and more setups. They don't benefit that much but are still nice. Flying Peach Bomber isn't as useful in this match-up as default. Peach will most likely use 2112

Vanilla: 65:35
Custom: 60:40

 

[evmaxy54]

None of Zelda's MU's are 30:70 imo. The closest we get is probably Sheik or Cfal and those are probably solid 40:60's.

Peach might as well be

**** this MU

Samus all the way

And Falcon is closer to 40:60-45:55 IMO for reasons

 

[BJN39]

Peach might as well be

**** this MU

Samus all the way

And Falcon is closer to 40:60-45:55 IMO for reasons

AKA Jab?

 

[JigglyZelda003]

ok not multi quoting due to mobile but I'm addressing some of @ Macchiato post.

Dairing Zeldas shield Zeldas best option is to roll away. If she knows Peach is going for another Dair she can Utilt in between but if she's going for a Nair Zelda can continue to block and with fast reaction can shield grab. Peach can attempt to go behind her for a Bair.

QFR is not a tech its just a fancy way peach can short hop for spacing. This isn't really any more significant than baiting Zelda with a dash away.

Peach can juggle Zelda yes but only if she stays close. zeldas air speed is just fast enough for her to get away through a mix of wiggling and air dodge.

you don't Nayrus turnips unless peach chucked them at you from the front. Turnips annoy Zelda greatly but her best answer is to run from them or catch them. Same with turnip to fair Zelda runs from that she doesn't block it that's suicide.


halberd isn't the best stage for Zelda but the low Ceiling helps Zelda more since it increases the chance of killing Peach early.same with T&C. Honestly Zeldas current upB and ledge factors which made some stages really bad for Zelda are a moot point now. I think stages depend more upon where your comfortable since Peach is good with platforms but platforms help keep high end turnips off of Zeldas head and keeps peach more at eye lvl to better help Zelda.

customs are again gimmicks that can further frustrate Zelda but doesn't ass her ourt here. Better to keep regular Faroes and maybe change phantom depending on your preference for Phantom. Squall trades a valuable hail Mary for a combo escape that if playing cautious shouldn't be needed much.

offstage Zelda can trade with peach at parasols start, but its better just to Dins if she is already really low or jump out with Nair if she is going low.

you also haven't really noted anything Zelda can do outher than catch Peach slipping which if Peach is on her game that's hard to do cause Zelda lacks options to do so. Even sheilding which is normally good can sometimes get Zelda nowhere other than a weakened shield. So I don't see how you still feel this matchup is a light counter if Peach completely understands Zelda.

 

[Macchiato]

ok not multi quoting due to mobile but I'm addressing some of @ Macchiato post.

Dairing Zeldas shield Zeldas best option is to roll away. If she knows Peach is going for another Dair she can Utilt in between but if she's going for a Nair Zelda can continue to block and with fast reaction can shield grab. Peach can attempt to go behind her for a Bair.

QFR is not a tech its just a fancy way peach can short hop for spacing. This isn't really any more significant than baiting Zelda with a dash away.

Peach can juggle Zelda yes but only if she stays close. zeldas air speed is just fast enough for her to get away through a mix of wiggling and air dodge.

you don't Nayrus turnips unless peach chucked them at you from the front. Turnips annoy Zelda greatly but her best answer is to run from them or catch them. Same with turnip to fair Zelda runs from that she doesn't block it that's suicide.


halberd isn't the best stage for Zelda but the low Ceiling helps Zelda more since it increases the chance of killing Peach early.same with T&C. Honestly Zeldas current upB and ledge factors which made some stages really bad for Zelda are a moot point now. I think stages depend more upon where your comfortable since Peach is good with platforms but platforms help keep high end turnips off of Zeldas head and keeps peach more at eye lvl to better help Zelda.

customs are again gimmicks that can further frustrate Zelda but doesn't *** her ourt here. Better to keep regular Faroes and maybe change phantom depending on your preference for Phantom. Squall trades a valuable hail Mary for a combo escape that if playing cautious shouldn't be needed much.

offstage Zelda can trade with peach at parasols start, but its better just to Dins if she is already really low or jump out with Nair if she is going low.

you also haven't really noted anything Zelda can do outher than catch Peach slipping which if Peach is on her game that's hard to do cause Zelda lacks options to do so. Even sheilding which is normally good can sometimes get Zelda nowhere other than a weakened shield. So I don't see how you still feel this matchup is a light counter if Peach completely understands Zelda.

Funny, I was actually gonna put this as 60-40.

Then I read my post and was like "Well ****, Peach really stumps Zelda"

 

[Zylach]

Against Peach, Zelda really doesn't have a lot of options. I've actually been experimenting with "spacing" with phantom recently and, at the very least, trying to use it as a wall against my opponent. This is something that can come in handy against Peach since she's in the air so often instead of on the ground where she can shield it all. A retreating phantom strike can be fully charge before Peach is able to float over to us for a dair (though fair is still scary and always is scary). Since Peach is in the air so often, we're a little more free to sit in shield against her so long as we know when to get away from her since her shield pressure is amazing. Moreover, she can't freely sit in shield against all of our stuff which is really the bane of our existence. And she isn't actually unpunishable either though it may seem like it. Punishing Peach in between dairs with a nair is very possible if we're quick.

Peach can also have a little difficulty landing a kill move though I believe she can use throws to bait airdodges (What else do we have really?) into fairs and parasols. Conversely, if we are able to catch Peach while she's in the air with our nair, we can drag her down into an elevator. Furthermore, I'm particularly a fan of using phantom sort of like a bait. People generally (I don't know why exactly) want to attack the phantom and kill it which is a good opportunity for us to punish from behind that phantom with something like a fsmash.

Uncomfortable MU but not unwinnable.

40:60 Default
45:55Customs because flare can actually ruin Peach's day while phantom strike gives us instant up-close defense while Peach gets... sleepy toad? Is that it?

 

[Macchiato]

40:60 Default
45:55Customs because flare can actually ruin Peach's day while phantom strike gives us instant up-close defense while Peach gets... sleepy toad? Is that it?

Light Veggies too

 

[TheBlackLuffy]

I don't have to much experience with the MU due to the very rare amount of Zelda Mains in general. But Here's what I personally think on the MU for v . Please correct me if I'm wrong I'm new to all this frame data and FAF and what not. Most of this is just speculation.

has everything she needs to keep Mario out and has no problem with playing the spacing game. With relying massively on grabs if not almost completely. can simply zone him out with her many options.

Neutral B - Punishes Rolls very well and with the Knockback it allows Zelda to keep Mario with his already limited apporaches out.

Down Smash - Also decent Knockback and range. Nice for punishing rolls.

Jab - Great for pushing Mario back if he's trying to approach from the ground allowing you to keep distance.

while she is easy to combo once you have her, getting in is the hard part at least for . Or me in general.

So how is gonna approach?

Aerial approaches? has Nair or Nayru's Love to stop any of that.

Ground approaches? Don't even try and fireball unless you are close enough to FireBall and instantly going for a grab. I'm talking balls deep. While 1 Combo can get Zelda to about 60%. Killing Zelda isn't all that easy if she recovers low.

I think its 40:60 if the can stay in 's Face. But it's not a complete blow out.

Thoughts?

 

[Macchiato]

Thanks to sakurai, this patch made Peach's pressure even stronger. We have no solutions to her shield pressure now. This match up is probably a -2 or maybe even a -3.

 

[evmaxy54]

Thanks to sakurai, this patch made Peach's pressure even stronger. We have no solutions to her shield pressure now. This match up is probably a -2 or maybe even a -3.

We never had any good solutions to her shield pressure before LMAO

This MU has always been terrible