Airdodging is too good of an option

[LancerStaff]

Can you tell me what KIU is?

Kid Icarus Uprising.

 

[LightLV]

That adds a layer of complexity that some people dont want, myself included. The neutral is already pretty hard to keep up when facing a good player, i dont want to have to worry about... roll cool downs, how stale my shield is, etc. I want my defensive options to work consistently so i can defend and get to attacking. Sure they're good but you certainly arent gaining any ground in the game by dodging. Hell, top defensive players like Dabuz have said that they need to learn aggression to have a chance.

A better concept would be to leave the frames alone, and just stale your shield instead, in other words literally deplete your shield through consecutive rolls, air dodges and ledge grabs.

This could be visually shown by flashing the player an ominous color (or other graphic) warning them that they're tapping into their shield strength, and alerting the opponent that if you force them to block a strong attack, they'll probably suffer a shield poke or break. (Essentially like Negative Penalty from the Guilty Gear / Blazblue series. You're free to run away all you like, but the penalty just drastically increases the chance that the first move that catches you punishes you hard for it. Of course, in those games, the penalty timer is balanced for specific character's playstyles.)

I'd even go as far to say that, as an added shield mechanic, Perfect Shield can be removed as an option when your shield depletes past 50%. Or, at the very least, it gets nerfed to the point where it negates shield damage, but no longer provides frame advantage.

This could actually create an interesting pressure dynamic, and allow characters benefit for being offensive, punishing campy play, and rewarding more precision defensive play. They would need to rebalance shield HP per weight class though, otherwise it'd probably be abused by the current top tiers as well.


But characters with serious mobility/balance issues could benefit from this greatly. Bowser / Gannon could actually strategically put themselves in offensive positions by crippling the opponent's shield and fishing for a break. Samus could adopt a playstyle that chips down the opponent's defenses with her (currentlyuseless) projectiles. Zelda could actually have use for Din's Fire and Phantom, providing pressure either by forcing them to block/dodge the attacks, without them just wiffing for free.

Many characters in this game just suffer from a lack of mechanics that synergize their playstyles.

 

[Horseketchup]

Rolls being stupidly good I think is overblown. This is the first game in the series where rolling actually serves a purpose for a lot of the cast and is semi-useful. It's only kind of overpowered in online play, but then again the lag there makes pretty much every defensive option by nature harder to punish. But rolling in past games might as well have barely existed, I think it was a bit underpowered to be honest. Even with rolling being buffed, it's still mostly situational in higher level play. I think the huge amount of newer players online is what has contributed to rolling being seen as way too good. Here's the average roll data for SSB4, Brawl, and Melee to compare:

Average Melee Roll: 4-19 / 33 (17 frames between consecutive rolls)

Average Brawl Roll: 4-19 / 32 (16 frames between consecutive rolls)

Average SSB4 Roll: 4-17 / 29 (15 frames between consecutive rolls)

The average roll in SSB4 has 3 less total frames than the average roll in Brawl, but also 2 less frames of invincibility to compensate. Total lag matters more since you can start the next action more quickly, but in terms of endlag it's almost identical. Yea 3 frames isn't negligible, but it's not huge either. Distance can't be compared as easily (if anyone knows of comparisons between roll distance in SSB4 and past games lemme know), but it seems similar to previous games from what I've experienced. Maybe I could go for adding a frame or two of total frames to the better rolls in Smash 4, but I don't think it's a big deal really. Just figured I'd throw this in here since rolling was being talked about before.

 

[Fox Hater]

When I said positioning I didn't mean that. Let me explain :
in a juggle situation any character with a fast aerial (frame 7 or less) can force a 50/50 airdodge just by getting in range of their aerial, and that range can be increased by their jump/second jump height. If you are in the burst range of your aerial then your opponent can't react to it, so he has to guess if you're going to use it or not. From that point you have 50% change of hitting your opponent, and that percentage can be changed with conditioning and mindgames.
Now if you do that and syncronize your fall with your opponent's you can either use your aerial before he airdodges or wait until he airdodges and punish. And if your aerial has low endlag or is a multihit you can cover 100% of the options of your opponent.

There you have it, with basic zoning you can beat airdodges and you don't need a multihit, just good positioning.

PS : stop saying things like "Airdodging shouldn't come out on frame 2 and it should have invincibility frames reduced.". Sakurai doesn't come here, nobody you will talk to has the power to change anything the game so it has no use beside making you look entitled.

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I love logic with people. Especially when they argue something is balanced haha. Yet your post says any character with a fast aerial... meaning only a % of the cast has a viable option... is this your view of balanced.?

What i like from smash 64 is that although the are top tier and low tier. the gap is close between them all. That means everyone has a true combo that can kill.

Yes, if the airdoge is changed, sheik will kill faster... which will make the game faster too. But other characters that are slow will have a fighting chance. Because the can set you up and kill. hell maybe even the punish game will improve more and the combo options. Making the game fast enough for a 3 stock match.

Look at the new generation of fighters... they are making the defensive options weaker... SFV, MK10, Killer Instinc

Yet Smash 4 made defensive options stronger and rewarding the weaker player... shield too strong, airdodge better in the air, no edgehog option so everyone gets back in the stage....

Have you ever wondered why brawl a game with more flaws takes less time to end a match than smash 4???

 

[jet56]

eh, i really think the only thing that needs to be changed is shield pushback, so more characters can apply safe pokes on shield and shield pressure. this way you can punish for people who use shield too much, and characters with bad grabs can still compete. course, this is coming from a salty mac player who can get shieldgrabbed out of....well, anything, but whatev.

 

[Tito Maas]

I'll agree that Ness's floatiness with his constant airdodging makes me feel similar to OP

 

[Stromp]

They have frame perfect airdodges

Most people don't have frame perfect air dodges

 

[kendikong]

Puff needs her airdodges to stay viable

 

[Chibi-Chan]

I play Marth and find it pretty much impossible to hit a good Uair. You only have a few frames where the tipper hitbox will work, if the enemy spams airdodge you are never going to get a good hit... Relevant hitbox lasts a very short time and you only get 1 chance for the right timing. Thinking you can move at identical speed and trajectory as your enemy while on the air is a myth, most characters only get 1 chance and a lot of the time it's with a quick move with no lasting frames... Then there's 1 character who also needs the right right distance and speed.. If it was like 2 frames slower to come out it'd make a huge difference...

 

[MysteriousSilver]

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I love logic with people. Especially when they argue something is balanced haha. Yet your post says any character with a fast aerial... meaning only a % of the cast has a viable option... is this your view of balanced.?

What characters don't have a </=frame 7 aerial? Ganon has two. Palutena has one and two 8 frame moves. Dedede has one. DK has two. Ike has one. Zelda has two.

Charizard doesn't have one, but he has an 8 frame aerial.

Shulk is much slower, so there's one. Robin's fastest is nine, so he's close.

Is there anyone else? Are we literally talking about three characters here, mostly just the one?