Airdodging is too good of an option

[Ghostbone]

No. Airdodge baiting is a thing for pretty much every character (especially those with lingering aerial hitboxes), and airdodging even remotely close to the ground is death when you're up against any character with above average punish ability.
Of course, it's no wonder you think airdodging needs to be nerfed. You're judging it by what level 9's/amiibo can do with it! You said it yourself, they have frame-perfect reactions, so of course they're just going to airdodge everything. In an actual match, continuously airdodging to the ground will get you killed.

That was the point.
Air-dodging to the ground sucks, air-dodging in any other situation besides when your opponent is falling with you or is right below you (and have an aerial with tonnes of active frames) is amazing .

Some character's air-dodges come out on frame 2...FRAME 2, and spamming them gives your opponent around a 6 frame window to actually hit you. That's identical to the window for the average Brawl spot-dodge, and you get to move while you're doing it. (and obviously you have way more options out of air-dodge than just more air-dodges)

Like everyone who claims air-dodging sucks, just look at the frame-data, actually watch games and count how many air-dodges get punished vs how many the player gets away with. You're just cherry picking the hard punishes players will get because their opponent will routinely air-dodge a lot because it's actually ridiculously strong.

Airdodges are honestly kind of garbage in this game. Pretty much everyone can hard punish them, lots of character like Falcon will straight up kill people who airdodge at the wrong times. It's almost always better in actual competent play to just double jump out.

Garbage?
Wtf are you smoking, go play the game and try not to air-dodge, see how it goes for you.
If air-dodge was garbage people wouldn't ever use it. Samus's roll is garbage, saying air-dodging is garbage is like saying sheik or diddy's rolls are garbage. Just because they can be read doesn't mean they're not amazing in every other circumstance.

 

[leesinger]

No. Airdodge baiting is a thing for pretty much every character (especially those with lingering aerial hitboxes), and airdodging even remotely close to the ground is death when you're up against any character with above average punish ability.
Of course, it's no wonder you think airdodging needs to be nerfed. You're judging it by what level 9's/amiibo can do with it! You said it yourself, they have frame-perfect reactions, so of course they're just going to airdodge everything. In an actual match, continuously airdodging to the ground will get you killed.

Nobody is talking about airdodging to the ground. That is an unsafe option with like 25 frames where you can be punished. Airdodging in the air is what this thread is about, and the fact that you can essentially spam it. Alot of people have made good points about how its punishable, and I agree that it is, but its still too good. TBH most players don't abuse it enough imo.

Edit: Damn Ghostbone beat me to it

 

[Charoite]

Airdodging is good on the air and bad only on the ground but that is not a bad thing, is a design choice,
the higher tier characters can punish the strong universal options that the game offers, reduncing the force of these options could do more harm to the metagame that good, and is more easily balance a game were there are strong universal options.

 

[phantom man]

Honestly I think a universal nerf to airdodge, shield and spotdodge would be amazing for this game. Add more frames of lag to all dodges, make shields regen slower.

Didn't that happen?

 

[Ghostbone]

Didn't that happen?

1 less frame of invincibility on every roll.

 

[Horseketchup]

1 less frame of invincibility on every roll.

It wasn't just rolls, 1 frame of invincibility got removed from the end of all rolls, air dodges, and spot dodges.

Btw I was curious so I found out the average air dodge data for both Brawl and Smash 4 so there's an easier point of comparison between the two games. Just added up each data point and divided by # of characters, rounding up or down to the closest value (there were no averages that came out to .4-.6 frames, so it happened to be simple rounding)

• Average Brawl Airdodge: 4-29 / 45 (19 vulnerable frames between consecutive dodges)

• Average SSB4 Airdodge: 3-26 / 32 (8 vulnerable frames between consecutive dodges)

Yea so it's clear Brawl airdodges were much worse, excluding the fact that they were much stronger on landing.

 

[jet56]

agreed, airdodging isnt the problem. the rolls in this game are more difficult to punish, because not only does it give you invincibility, but each roll is different, with different end lag, movement speed and distance, and the fact that you have to space your moves properly AND guess which way they will roll to punish it. however, i do agree that airdodging needs more end lag, so it is easier to punish, 8 frames to punish in a 60 fps game is a stupidly short window.

 

[teluoborg]

@ Ghostbone & @ Horseketchup in Brawl airdodging to the ground gave you 2-4 frames of landing lag, compared to the 25 of smash 4. People still punished airdodge landings all day every day.

There's no excuse for not being able to punish 8 frames of lag.

 

[Ghostbone]

It wasn't just rolls, 1 frame of invincibility got removed from the end of all rolls, air dodges, and spot dodges.

No it was just rolls.

@ Ghostbone & @ Horseketchup in Brawl airdodging to the ground gave you 2-4 frames of landing lag, compared to the 25 of smash 4. People still punished airdodge landings all day every day.

There's no excuse for not being able to punish 8 frames of lag.

Yea I know they're worse on landing.
People could only punish air-dodge landings in brawl with moves with tonnes of active frames. (partly because of the random input lag in Brawl too).
Funny that, I already said that characters with lasting hitboxes (or high aerial mobility) are the only ones who can reliably punish air-dodges in this game. I'm talking about air-dodging in the air, not air-dodging into the ground.

Everyone seems to think that because air-dodges can be punished that means they're not overpowered.
Like that's ridiculous, an option can be way too strong but still be dealt with, players will learn to deal with anything, but that doesn't mean that air-dodging isn't stupidly good in this game.

 

[DunnoBro]

No it was just rolls.

Both of you are wrong.

It was rolls and spot dodges but not air dodges or anything else:

http://smashboards.com/threads/tournament-mode-1-1-0-community-patch-notes.412130/

UNIVERSAL invincibility duration on spot dodge and both rolls have been reduced by 1 frame.

 

[teluoborg]

Yea I know they're worse on landing.
People could only punish air-dodge landings in brawl with moves with tonnes of active frames. (partly because of the random input lag in Brawl too).
Funny that, I already said that characters with lasting hitboxes (or high aerial mobility) are the only ones who can reliably punish air-dodges in this game. I'm talking about air-dodging in the air, not air-dodging into the ground.

And how many characters do not have any useable lasting hitbox ? Even Zelda and Ganon have some.

Everyone seems to think that because air-dodges can be punished that means they're not overpowered.
Like that's ridiculous, an option can be way too strong but still be dealt with, players will learn to deal with anything, but that doesn't mean that air-dodging isn't stupidly good in this game.

Why should people care if it's strong, too strong, overpowered or weak as
heck ? All that you need to know is if it can be punished and how.
Criticizing won't change anything, proposing fixes and patches won't change anything either.
We're not in PM where the dev team reads the boards and may get influenced by a post or two.
Making a topic just to say airdodges are overpowered is like making a topic to complain about how Falcon gets nerfed twice in a row but ZSS and Luigi remain untouched : that's just useless whining.

 

[Shadow_13]

And how many characters do not have any useable lasting hitbox ? Even Zelda and Ganon have some.

Why should people care if it's strong, too strong, overpowered or weak as
heck ? All that you need to know is if it can be punished and how.
Criticizing won't change anything, proposing fixes and patches won't change anything either.
We're not in PM where the dev team reads the boards and may get influenced by a post or two.
Making a topic just to say airdodges are overpowered is like making a topic to complain about how Falcon gets nerfed twice in a row but ZSS and Luigi remain untouched : that's just useless whining.

The point of this argument started as whining, but the point you are responding to is the lack of acknowledgment of how the mechanic affects the game. Yeah it's pointless whining. We can't do anything about it and we all are pretty sure Nintendo won't do anything about it. The thing that is intriguing is how many people share the same opinion. We don't need negativity towards each other. That happens enough on this site. The negativity towards one mechanic, sure. We love the game. Games have flaws and we will continue to love them. I will admit that the common theme is that those defending airdodging usually main extremely good characters or a character that targets airdodging and those attacking the concept of airdodging main lesser characters. Link is my main and he destroys airdodging, but I still believe if it was nerfed, the game would become a faster and funner play.

Let people whine. It doesn't matter.

 

[jet56]

the funny thing is that things have been patched due to complaints or thoughts about what is too strong in this game before. the 1 frame less invincibility is a prime example of that. smash 4 has been the only game in the franchise that have been getting patches, and they HAVE been listening to us, nerfing characters, and buffing others, and fixing universal problems, or tweaking game mechanics. so, it isn't useless whining. in fact people have been complaining about people whining about overpowered characters, then nintendo actually patching it, like when they heavily nerfed greninja, or when they nerfed little mac due to his huge amount of play in 3ds for glory.

Side note:when the next patch comes out (and it will) which character do you think they will nerf?
shiek obviously, since everyone has been all up in arms about having no options, or she can't be punished, or her fair is too strong (they already nerfed it once before).

 

[Shadow_13]

the funny thing is that things have been patched due to complaints or thoughts about what is too strong in this game before. the 1 frame less invincibility is a prime example of that. smash 4 has been the only game in the franchise that have been getting patches, and they HAVE been listening to us, nerfing characters, and buffing others, and fixing universal problems, or tweaking game mechanics. so, it isn't useless whining. in fact people have been complaining about people whining about overpowered characters, then nintendo actually patching it, like when they heavily nerfed greninja, or when they nerfed little mac due to his huge amount of play in 3ds for glory.

Side note:when the next patch comes out (and it will) which character do you think they will nerf?
shiek obviously, since everyone has been all up in arms about having no options, or she can't be punished, or her fair is too strong (they already nerfed it once before).

Actually, you have a good point!

And I think Sheik will get maybe 3 - 4 frames of lag on FAir. I don't think much else. She is also the only character in this game that I think needs a nerf. I honestly would have loved pre-patch Sheik, but with much more lag. Strong, but not OP... but that won't happen haha. Yeah, maybe just a couple frames of lag. I doubt any damage decrease. That might be a bad idea. They may do KGB decrease on UpSpecial, but I doubt that one too.

 

[jet56]

if they touch fair and nothing else, im fine, cause it gives some characters or players a chance to break out of the string.

 

[Shadow_13]

We should probably stop there just because the mods don't like us getting off-topic. But, I am all for resuming this conversation elsewhere.

Back to airdodging haha.

 

[Morbi]

I agree with one of the very first posts, all you need to do is bait the air-dodge out and punish them for it. If they begin to realize that you are baiting the air dodge, they have some options to deal with that as well. I do not believe that it is "too good of an option" at all. It is extremely easy to punish and if you cannot, what happens? They land safely? That is hardly detrimental.

 

[Fuerzo]

learn to bait it out

 

[Ghostbone]

And how many characters do not have any useable lasting hitbox ? Even Zelda and Ganon have some.

Most of the cast that aren't top tier have a hard time with air-dodges.
Sure Zelda and Ganon can punish them in specific circumstances when they're specifically expecting them, doesn't mean it's stupidly good in general against them.

Why should people care if it's strong, too strong, overpowered or weak as
heck ? All that you need to know is if it can be punished and how.
Criticizing won't change anything, proposing fixes and patches won't change anything either.
We're not in PM where the dev team reads the boards and may get influenced by a post or two.
Making a topic just to say airdodges are overpowered is like making a topic to complain about how Falcon gets nerfed twice in a row but ZSS and Luigi remain untouched : that's just useless whining.

Huh?
You're saying acknowledging how strong of an option something is is just useless whining?
I have to disagree, knowing how strong air-dodging is lets you actually account for it properly in a game. It's not like I care in a competitive sense how good something is, that just means I'll abuse it more and expect it more from my opponent. But to ignore how strong an option is means you don't properly understand the game and won't be able to account for it properly.
I'm not criticizing air-dodging to get it changed, I know it won't. (or specifically, if it does it won't be because of this thread)

This whole thread is just people going "omg just bait it out".
You can bait out sheik's fair and powershield it for a punish too, it's not like Sheik's unbeatable, doesn't mean that it's not likely too good of a tool in neutral.

 

[Shadow_13]

^^^This guy right here... Thank you @ Ghostbone

 

[leesinger]

Ghostbone for president

 

[teluoborg]

Most of the cast that aren't top tier have a hard time with air-dodges.
Sure Zelda and Ganon can punish them in specific circumstances when they're specifically expecting them, doesn't mean it's stupidly good in general against them.

Tell me : when in the game can your opponents airdodge without you expecting them to ? Have you ever whiffed your aerial into your opponent's airdodge and told yourself "wow I really didn't expect him to try to avoid my attack" ? If that's the case then then problem doesn't reside in your "not top tier" character but in your lack of foresight.

Huh?
You're saying acknowledging how strong of an option something is is just useless whining?
I have to disagree, knowing how strong air-dodging is lets you actually account for it properly in a game. It's not like I care in a competitive sense how good something is, that just means I'll abuse it more and expect it more from my opponent. But to ignore how strong an option is means you don't properly understand the game and won't be able to account for it properly.
I'm not criticizing air-dodging to get it changed, I know it won't. (or specifically, if it does it won't be because of this thread)

This whole thread is just people going "omg just bait it out".
You can bait out sheik's fair and powershield it for a punish too, it's not like Sheik's unbeatable, doesn't mean that it's not likely too good of a tool in neutral.

No one is ignoring anything. It's just that it's almost been a year since the game came out, everyone knows how good airdodges are, and they have adapted.
Saying "airdodges are good" doesn't add anything to the current state of things.
Saying "airdodges are too good" doesn't add anything and makes you look entitled.
Saying "airdodges are too good", complain about amiibos, throw out wrong frame data and say it's the game's fault if you miss your punish like OP did is of course going to get everyone to treat him like a kid. If you go read the first page you'll see I wrote an actual answer with complete explanation about why airdodges are not that big of a deal, it got ignored.

TL;DR : this discussion topic is 10 months late. Everyone has aknowledged the value of airdoding, found counters and moved on.

 

[Shadow_13]

Tell me : when in the game can your opponents airdodge without you expecting them to ? Have you ever whiffed your aerial into your opponent's airdodge and told yourself "wow I really didn't expect him to try to avoid my attack" ? If that's the case then then problem doesn't reside in your "not top tier" character but in your lack of foresight.


No one is ignoring anything. It's just that it's almost been a year since the game came out, everyone knows how good airdodges are, and they have adapted.
Saying "airdodges are good" doesn't add anything to the current state of things.
Saying "airdodges are too good" doesn't add anything and makes you look entitled.
Saying "airdodges are too good", complain about amiibos, throw out wrong frame data and say it's the game's fault if you miss your punish like OP did is of course going to get everyone to treat him like a kid. If you go read the first page you'll see I wrote an actual answer with complete explanation about why airdodges are not that big of a deal, it got ignored.

TL;DR : this discussion topic is 10 months late. Everyone has aknowledged the value of airdoding, found counters and moved on.

You still haven't gotten it, bro. You're focused on the "how" rather than the "what" and "why". The aim of this topic is not to address how to get past them. We all know that part. Re-read through these comments. I'm not trying to be rude or condescending, but if you don't get it then please ask. You have an opinion and it is cool you share it, but you are focusing on the wrong point.

And, the topic is not late. It is an ever changing issue that may always need addressing in light of new findings.

 

[Horseketchup]

Both of you are wrong.

It was rolls and spot dodges but not air dodges or anything else:

http://smashboards.com/threads/tournament-mode-1-1-0-community-patch-notes.412130/

Oh wow you're right. I guess what threw me off was on the ssbwiki airdodging page it says airdodges were also reduced by one frame.

http://www.ssbwiki.com/Airdodging#Air_dodge_invincibility_and_lag_in_Smash_4

(Bout to edit it out actually)

Someone also edited the air dodge data on ssbwiki under the wrong assumption that invincibility frames were changed last patch, just corrected it though. The average air dodge data I posted was based off that data though (I just should stop trusting ssbwiki), so here's a corrected version:

• Average Brawl Airdodge: 4-29 / 45 (19 vulnerable frames between consecutive dodges)

• Average SSB4 Airdodge: 3-27 / 32 (7 vulnerable frames between consecutive dodges)

 

[Gunla]

Oh wow you're right. I guess what threw me off was on the ssbwiki airdodging page it says airdodges were also reduced by one frame.

http://www.ssbwiki.com/Airdodging#Air_dodge_invincibility_and_lag_in_Smash_4

(Bout to edit it out actually)

Someone also edited the air dodge data on ssbwiki under the wrong assumption that invincibility frames were changed last patch, just corrected it though. The average air dodge data I posted was based off that data though (I just should stop trusting ssbwiki), so here's a corrected version:

• Average Brawl Airdodge: 4-29 / 45 (19 vulnerable frames between consecutive dodges)

• Average SSB4 Airdodge: 3-27 / 32 (7 vulnerable frames between consecutive dodges)

Please refrain from double posting; instead, use the edit option.

^^^This guy right here... Thank you @ Ghostbone

Just going to warn you that these kinds of posts are considered spam-like for their mass use of emoticons.

 

[Shadow_13]

Please refrain from double posting; instead, use the edit option.


Just going to warn you that these kinds of posts are considered spam-like for their mass use of emoticons.

Makes sense. Then, serious question. If I did the same thing, but only used ONE Shaq emoticon, would that be okay, or would there need to be more 'content' to my post considering it was a thank you post for Ghostbone's opinion?

 

[Gunla]

Makes sense. Then, serious question. If I did the same thing, but only used ONE Shaq emoticon, would that be okay, or would there need to be more 'content' to my post considering it was a thank you post for Ghostbone's opinion?

It was directed at the heavy use of emoticons in general, in such a manner.

 

[neohopeSTF]

reading is too hard of an option

 

[wizrad]

If it was up to me, air dodges would be like a second jump: you only get one after you leave the ground. Or maybe none. I always wonder what the game would be like without wall or ceiling techs or air dodges. More aggressive? Slower neutral? Hm...

 

[FallenHero]

If you guys have playes RIvals of Aether yet I feel like the airdodges should be like that, but without the wavedashing. It is like the airdodge in Melee but you can act out of it and you only get to use one after you leave the ground.

 

[Rinku リンク]

"Rolling is too good of an option" (especially online)

 

[KeithTheGeek]

If it was up to me, air dodges would be like a second jump: you only get one after you leave the ground. Or maybe none. I always wonder what the game would be like without wall or ceiling techs or air dodges. More aggressive? Slower neutral? Hm...

It would probably be like Smash 64 except with fewer 0-to-deaths and better defensive options on the ground.

I've always liked the idea of making the air dodge restricted to once per air time, while still acting like a Brawl/Smash 4 style air dodge. You could have it still be amazing frame data-wise, but then it becomes a finite resource that the player must conserve and risk being punished for using wrong.

But then again, I don't particularly mind air dodges in their current state as Dedede happens to be pretty decent at calling them out with his uair. That's just me though, there's no denying air dodges as they currently are tend to be pretty amazing.

 

[LightLV]

Shielding and Rolling are too good of an option

Fixed that for you. Airdodging is workable. Rolling and and shielding are just game-defining-ly good options this time around.

Drastically nerfed shieldpush and shieldlag values on shield makes pretty much everything unsafe, sometimes even with spacing. Don't even get me started on shield regeneration.

Combined with extremely fast rolls with crazy recovery frames and distance makes any concept of offensive pressure nonexistent on this game.

Basically, if you can't poke a shield without being punished, your grab sucks, or you're forced to hard commit to anything you CANT confirm into, you're a screwed character in this game.

 

[FallenHero]

Yeah I think rolling and shielding is a much bigger problem than air dodging. The window to punish a roll before another roll is so small. This game has way too much shield stun and push back, so there are so many things that are just completely safe on shield that don't even require proper spacing. Maybe I'm just saying this because I'm a Marth main and a lot of his attacks are not safe on shield without the tipper.

 

[LightLV]

If it was up to me, air dodges would be like a second jump: you only get one after you leave the ground. Or maybe none. I always wonder what the game would be like without wall or ceiling techs or air dodges. More aggressive? Slower neutral? Hm...

I agree, but unfortunately this would never work because of how floaty the physics are. You would just get launched into the air and then never touch the ground again. Hell, Smash 4 already has this issue with its top tiers just screwing you over once you lose your second jump.

I just wish defensive options staled like offensive ones. Consecutive use should increase the lag frames you suffer on rolling, sidestepping and airdodging.

 

[FallenHero]

I agree, but unfortunately this would never work because of how floaty the physics are. You would just get launched into the air and then never touch the ground again. Hell, Smash 4 already has this issue with its top tiers just screwing you over once you lose your second jump.

I just wish defensive options staled like offensive ones. Consecutive use should increase the lag frames you suffer on rolling, sidestepping and airdodging.

Wow you actually brought up a very good point! Why is it that offensive options have to become less and less effective as the match goes on and defensive options don't? I think you have a good idea about getting more frames of lag on rolls and airdodging the more you use them, but I think it should also include shields deteriorating faster and taking more damage the more you use it, however they should go back to normal after enough time. Maybe even make it so that your defensive options only go back to being good after going offensive, but that would be a bit too drastic of a change.

 

[Megamang]

That adds a layer of complexity that some people dont want, myself included. The neutral is already pretty hard to keep up when facing a good player, i dont want to have to worry about... roll cool downs, how stale my shield is, etc. I want my defensive options to work consistently so i can defend and get to attacking. Sure they're good but you certainly arent gaining any ground in the game by dodging. Hell, top defensive players like Dabuz have said that they need to learn aggression to have a chance.


One air dodge per launch? Zss and shiek just got even stronger from grabs. In many ways the defensive options in smash allow offense. Good rolls let you contest things like ZSS dsmash.

If you have trouble with dodges, you need to relax and press less buttons in neutral. Draw out a Dodge and hit really hard...8 frames is a lot of vulnerability if you know your active frames.

 

[LancerStaff]

I know it's going to happen at some point so I might as well say it anyway...

There's a system in KIU that does have degenerating dodges. One would think it'd be a no-brainer for Sakurai to bring it over to Smash but there's other important parts of KIU dodges that make it work.

1. Most obvious is the lack of shields or a dedicated button. This both makes movement in general safer (yep, foxtrotting is huge in KIU) and dodging not take any real skill or commitment.

2. Dodges take like two seconds to recharge. Completely serious here.

3. Dodges in Smash have hm, 80% invincibility? 90 at most. KIU's start at 150%. With max staleness it's more like 95%. (Unless you use Evasion minus but lol not worth it.) Yep, you can chain dodges together, or even throw out an attack while invincible. Which brings me to my next point...

4. Dodges can be cancelled into attacks. Not movement, but attacks. Still invincible too.

So unless you want everything else with it I'd lay off of the idea of degenerating dodges.

 

[FallenHero]

I know it's going to happen at some point so I might as well say it anyway...

There's a system in KIU that does have degenerating dodges. One would think it'd be a no-brainer for Sakurai to bring it over to Smash but there's other important parts of KIU dodges that make it work.

1. Most obvious is the lack of shields or a dedicated button. This both makes movement in general safer (yep, foxtrotting is huge in KIU) and dodging not take any real skill or commitment.

2. Dodges take like two seconds to recharge. Completely serious here.

3. Dodges in Smash have hm, 80% invincibility? 90 at most. KIU's start at 150%. With max staleness it's more like 95%. (Unless you use Evasion minus but lol not worth it.) Yep, you can chain dodges together, or even throw out an attack while invincible. Which brings me to my next point...

4. Dodges can be cancelled into attacks. Not movement, but attacks. Still invincible too.

So unless you want everything else with it I'd lay off of the idea of degenerating dodges.

Can you tell me what KIU is?

 

[JAZZ_]

"Rolling is too good of an option" (especially online)

You people clearly dont play as Samus.