Air Dodge "Dodge-slide" Mechanic.

[Captain Norris]

I dunno if this was shown off yet, but if it was, lock this thread.
Here is what I posted in the Youtube Video description:
This is a new mechanic I recently found out about! Watch the video to see a visual representation of this mechanic.
In the game of Smash 4, there is an increased amount of Landing lag with Aerial Dodges, which means it takes a certain amount of time in order for you to make another input. In Brawl air dodges were pretty lagless, so this mechanic was pretty absent except for a few characters.
What happens is if you air dodge while hitting the ground at an angle, it will cause you to slide. This is character specific, so certain characters will slide more than others. What is even more interesting is that it is somewhat momentum based. The quicker you run, and depending on your jump, you will actually be able to slide farther or shorter!
Additionally, there is a way to cancel (for lack of a better word) the landing lag of the air dodge. If you hit the edge of a stage (or a platform) at the correct time and placement, you will slide off the platform and be able to immediately do another input.

I honestly think these will add some flavor to the Smash 4 game.Air Dodges will not be completely useless. If you do this, it could get you just outside the range of an attack, and you will stay safe while in the air dodge animation. The "cancel" will probably also prove to become useful.

Sorry guys for bad quality So what are you thinking? I am fairly sure this will be pretty darn useful for some characters. Mario currently slides the farthest, with Mega Man right behind him. I am curious as to how far Luigi will slide, since he already barely slid in Brawl when doing this.

 

[ミスティック Speed]

xD That looks similar to wavedashing. Made me chuckle a bit.

 

[Captain Norris]

xD That looks similar to wavedashing. Made me chuckle a bit.

It is also similarly implemented. I honestly think the "cancel" I referred to (which is in the video) and the fact that this is a potential safe way to get out of an opponent's reach will make is better. The video depicts me doing it at the last possible time yet still sliding. The video also has just normal air dodges, and me trying to react immediately after.

 

[ミスティック Speed]

You don't suppose this was added as a shout out to Melee players, do ya? I mean- it wasn't in Brawl at all....

 

[Ghoti]

It looks like a pretty weak waveland. I wonder how speed modifies the waveland.

Oh, and wasn't this in Brawl?

 

[Captain Norris]

You don't suppose this was added as a shout out to Melee players, do ya? I mean- it wasn't in Brawl at all....

Actually it was in Brawl. You can barely perform it with Luigi. However, since it was virtually lagless on Air dodges this would not work.

 

[ミスティック Speed]

Actually it was in Brawl. You can barely perform it with Luigi. However, since it was virtually lagless on Air dodges this would not work.

xD Well yeah....but this is more expansive- as more characters can perform it now. That's what I meant.

It looks like a pretty weak waveland. I wonder how speed modifies the waveland.

Oh, and wasn't this in Brawl?

Only for Luigi~

 

[Captain Norris]

It looks like a pretty weak waveland. I wonder how speed modifies the waveland.

Oh, and wasn't this in Brawl?

In a way, yes. But there were other things in the video besides the slide. There was also being able to input immediately after an air dodge if you slide with it off a platform or stage. I think that is more important. I do it a few times, but it is decently hard to perform.

 

[Captain Norris]

xD Well yeah....but this is more expansive- as more characters can perform it now. That's what I meant.



Only for Luigi~

Don't quote me on that. I didn't look extremely extensively into this mechanic. But I tested it and it only worked slightly for Luigi in Brawl when I tried to perform the same thing. It did about the same as Link does in this video. Unless there is a different way to do it in Brawl...

 

[Roko Jono]

This is interesting, a few things I may test (or you) when I get home from work in the demo with Mario:

1. If I start moving left at the last possible moment and then air-dodge will I slide the same distance?

2. Will I slide if I short hop bair to the right then air dodge in the last possible moment to the right?

3. Same as #2 but what If I try to change the direction of my air dodge to the left

 

[adlp]

it looks like wavelanding

 

[Captain Norris]

This is interesting, a few things I may test (or you) when I get home from work in the demo with Mario:

1. If I start moving left at the last possible moment and then air-dodge will I slide the same distance?

2. Will I slide if I short hop bair to the right then air dodge in the last possible moment to the right?

3. Same as #2 but what If I try to change the direction of my air dodge to the left

Interestingly enough, As long as you are a few frames into the dodge, you will in fact slide the same length. However, if you begin the dodge too early you will significantly slide less (about half as much)
About the Bairs... I think it barely lasts too long too get an air dodge in when short hopping. You may want to double check that though when you get back from work.
I am going to try doing some other tests with this type of idea, last minute air dodges right after another move (short hop or full hop).
If anyone else could try some things out with other characters, since I will be primarily focused on Mario, it would be really appreciated! If anyone has the full game, can you try out Luigi with this mechanic?

 

[Chiroz]

Cancelling lag by dropping from the ledge of a platform or edge of the stage has always been in the game. It's why platform game is so good. It's literally called Ledge-Cancelling I believe.

http://www.ssbwiki.com/Ledge-canceling




About the momentum air dodge. I tried it myself and it doesn't seem the air dodge is actually doing anything. Brawl didn't keep momentum from landing which is why you suddenly stop. This game keeps a little of your momentum so characters "slide" when they hit the ground while pressing the control stick. They slide wether or not you air dodge from what I am seeing on my own tests. It's more noticeable when you air dodge because air dodging before you hit the ground will place you in a huge lag where you can't perform anything else which means you are 100% stuck in lag and can't do anything but slide. While on the other hand just landing without airdodging allows you to "break" the slide with any button input as there is no lag.

On another note the actual viability of wavedashing was the fact that your character was in idle position allowing every single option in the game to be performed while sliding. This slide blocks you of every single option, it doesn't really help you in any sense. At least that I can see right now.



Would you try just landing without dodging and not pressing any button or direction (release the control stick exactly as you land). See if you get the same slide, because at least that's what it seems to me.

 

[Roko Jono]

Cancelling lag by dropping from the ledge of a platform or edge of yhe stage has always been in the game. It's why platform game is so good. It's literally called Ledge-Cancelling I believe.

http://www.ssbwiki.com/Ledge-canceling




About the momentum air dodge. I tried it myself and it doesn't seem the air dodge is actually doing anything. Brawl didn't keep momentum from landing which is why you suddenly stop. This game keeps a little of your momentum so characters "slide" when they hit the ground while pressing the control stick. They slide wether or not you air dodge from what I am seeing on my own tests. And air dodging will only place you in a huge lag where you can't perform anything anyways. The actual viability of wavedashing was the fact that your character was in idle position allowing every single option in the game to be performed while sliding. This slide blocks you of every single option.

It looks like you can't ledge cancel aerials if they are still active (or I suck). I tried this with Link and his aerials mainly dair and it seems you get stuck to the edge of a ledge if you try.

 

[DarkDeity15]

This pretty much IS wavelanding. Too bad Link can't do it well lol (his wavedash/land has never been great to begin with). I'm sure Marth can at least do it though, because I know he doesn't have as much traction as Link does. However, I don't think this will become quite as useful as it was in Melee or Project M for pretty obvious reasons. There is no ledge hogging, you can't act out of it nearly as quickly unless edge canceled and you can't perform it whenever you want. Edge canceling it for possible combos/followups/mindgames would probably be it's main use.

 

[Captain Norris]

Cancelling lag by dropping from the ledge of a platform or edge of yhe stage has always been in the game. It's why platform game is so good. It's literally called Ledge-Cancelling I believe.

http://www.ssbwiki.com/Ledge-canceling




About the momentum air dodge. I tried it myself and it doesn't seem the air dodge is actually doing anything. Brawl didn't keep momentum from landing which is why you suddenly stop. This game keeps a little of your momentum so characters "slide" when they hit the ground while pressing the control stick. They slide wether or not you air dodge from what I am seeing on my own tests. And air dodging will only place you in a huge lag where you can't perform anything anyways. The actual viability of wavedashing was the fact that your character was in idle position allowing every single option in the game to be performed while sliding. This slide blocks you of every single option.

Oh, I never was comparing it to wavedashing. I was just saying it was similar to how it was performed. ^.^
Thanks for the link, I appreciate it. A thing to note is the link you gave me states it was an Advanced Technique in Melee. So it as absent in Brawl. At least this is a confirmation it returns.
From what I have tested, the Air Dodge slide effect is much greater than trying to dothe same with, say, a fireball. In fact, it goes about twice as far. I have also done another test which is interesting.
With this, if you short hop and immediately air dodge, it is a safe way of moving. Becauseeither A) the landing lag will be significantly less or B) the slide will perform.
Honestly, I am just curious as to what happens to Luigi. Thanks for all the info.
EDIT: Ah, you mean without inputting a move. Yeah, the same effect happens. But I would rather feel safe with an air dodge than do nothing at all. I see what you are saying now. However, the short hop to immediate air dodge to ground does more of a slide than without any input.

 

[LancerStaff]

Cute, but I can't say it'd be important. Interested nonetheless because Pit had a huuuge Glidetoss, and it might carry over to this.

 

[Captain Norris]

@ Chiroz I edited my post. BTW, have you tried short hop to air dodge and try to keep doing it from one side of the stage to the other?It is really quick, safe movement from one side of the stage to the next. If you time is right, the lag animation seems to cross over into the jump. causing air dodge into short hop into next air dodge.

 

[Chiroz]

It looks like you can't ledge cancel aerials if they are still active (or I suck). I tried this with Link and his aerials mainly dair and it seems you get stuck to the edge of a ledge if you try.

In order to ledge cancel you MUST drop from the ledge. As such your aerial needs to "slide" you off the edge.

Oh, I never was comparing it to wavedashing. I was just saying it was similar to how it was performed. ^.^
Thanks for the link, I appreciate it. A thing to note is the link you gave me states it was an Advanced Technique in Melee. So it as absent in Brawl. At least this is a confirmation it returns.
From what I have tested, the Air Dodge slide effect is much greater than trying to dothe same with, say, a fireball. In fact, it goes about twice as far. I have also done another test which is interesting.
With this, if you short hop and immediately air dodge, it is a safe way of moving. Becauseeither A) the landing lag will be significantly less or B) the slide will perform.
Honestly, I am just curious as to what happens to Luigi. Thanks for all the info.

I don't mean to disappoint you, but just landing and running is probably a much better option. Or just spacing correctly. Being in lag frames is always a bad thing. Your opponent could just run up and grab you or dash attack you if you land too far away. Most of the time though you will still be in range for an F-Smash.

Also when I said try it without the air dodge I meant just jumping and landing. It creates the same slide as when you air dodge (at least in my test). As I said the difference is air dodging traps you in the slide making it more noticeable while when not air dodging any input (such as an attack) breaks the slide.



Edit: I will try short hopping air dodging to see what it looks like.

 

[Captain Norris]

In order to ledge cancel you MUST drop from the ledge. As such your aerial needs to "slide" you off the edge.







I don't mean to disappoint you, but just landing and running is probably a much better option. Or just spacing correctly. Being in lag frames is always a bad thing. Your opponent could just run up and grab you. Also when I said try it without the air dodge I meant just jumping and landing. It creates the same slide as when you air dodge. As I said the difference is air dodging traps you in the slide making it more noticeable while when not air dodging any input (such as an attack) breaks the slide.

haha I edited my post and I agree with you. Darn typo kept me from getting you a notification. Sorry about that.

 

[Chiroz]

haha I edited my post and I agree with you. Darn typo kept me from getting you a notification. Sorry about that.

Ok I read your edit. Still it's much better to land without the air dodge because the invulnerability ends as soon as you hit the floor which only traps you in about half a second of lag in which you can't do anything but slide. Landing without the air dodge allow you to shield or roll away instantly or just go for a jab, tilt or grab.

The best option to "quickly move around" would be to just dash as soon as you hit the floor, it's faster than jumping again.

I don't know if anything will be discovered in the near future to change this conclusion but as of now air dodging while close to the ground is never ever useful (Unless you are 100% sure you are dodging some extremely laggy move like Falcon Punch or Rest where the move lags more than the air dodge itself).




Edit: Also I believe ledge cancelling was in Brawl the problem was that momentum wasn't kept from air to ground or ground to air which means almost none of the characters could "slide" and as such couldn't slide off ledges to perform the technique rendering it unusable. I might be wrong though I don't remember much from Brawl honestly. Basically the difference between this game and Brawl that you discovered is that momentum is kept upon landing which results in slides.

 

[DarkDeity15]

In order to ledge cancel you MUST drop from the ledge. As such your aerial needs to "slide" you off the edge.







I don't mean to disappoint you, but just landing and running is probably a much better option. Or just spacing correctly. Being in lag frames is always a bad thing. Your opponent could just run up and grab you or dash attack you if you land too far away. Most of the time though you will still be in range for an F-Smash.

Also when I said try it without the air dodge I meant just jumping and landing. It creates the same slide as when you air dodge (at least in my test). As I said the difference is air dodging traps you in the slide making it more noticeable while when not air dodging any input (such as an attack) breaks the slide.



Edit: I will try short hopping air dodging to see what it looks like.

Air dodging would still be useful if you edge cancel it. It provides a much quicker way to get off of/avoid landing on platforms and such which could otherwise lead you into awkward situations if there is a character with well-ranged attacks below you, and you might even avoid a hit if you time it right.

 

[Captain Norris]

Ok I read your edit. Still it's much better to land without the air dodge because the invulnerability ends as soon as you hit the floor which only traps you in about half a second of lag in which you can't do anything but slide. Landing without the air dodge allow you to shield or roll away instantly or just go for a jab, tilt or grab.

The best option to "quickly move around" would be to just dash as soon as you hit the floor, it's faster than jumping again.

I don't know if anything will be discovered in the near future to change this conclusion but as of now air dodging while close to the ground is never ever useful (Unless you are 100% sure you are dodging some extremely laggy move like Falcon Punch or Rest where the move lags more than the air dodge itself).

Fair enough. Still, I was able to perform near lagless air dodges with the jump strangely. I then hopped, air dodged, and Daired with Mario. It was pretty sweet. Not necessarily viable, but it worked.

So... unless something significant changes, this thread could be locked. Or, it could be turned into a general Air Dodge discussion thread. Although there is already one that should probably be moved to this subsection.

 

[Chiroz]

Air dodging would still be useful if you edge cancel it. It provides a much quicker way to get off of/avoid landing on platforms and such which could otherwise lead you into awkward situations if there is a character with well-ranged attacks below you, and you might even avoid a hit if you time it right.

You could just perform an aerial that doesn't change your momentum. Also it was already proven that the air dodge isn't actually doing anything (in terms of slide, it is providing some invincibility). You slide just as much by inputting any other move that doesn't change momentum or just not inputting a move at all. The difference between inputting an air dodge is that you can land safely, but as soon as you land you are in stun until you drop off the edge which could be anything from 1-30 frames depending on how close you land to the ledge. And as soon as you drop from the ledge you are still vulnerable just not stuck in lag. What's the difference from just dropping without air dodging and still being vulnerable the whole time but not being stuck in lag?

 

[DarkDeity15]

You could just perform an aerial that doesn't change your momentum. Also it was already proven that the air dodge isn't actually doing anything (in terms of slide, it is providing some invincibility). You slide just as much by inputting any other move that doesn't change momentum or just not inputting a move at all. The difference between inputting an air dodge is that you can land safely, but as soon as you land you are in stun until you drop off the edge which could be anything from 1-30 frames depending on how close you land to the ledge. And as soon as you drop from the ledge you are still vulnerable just not stuck in lag. What's the difference from just dropping without air dodging and still being vulnerable the whole time but not being stuck in lag?

The landing lag wouldn't be a problem if you're precise enough. Not to mention the input is significantly easier to perform than any other action like a normal aerial other than a quick fair or bair, so there's not much of a chance you'd mess up. Just point the stick at a downward angle and dodge. It works extremely similarly to how it did in Melee/PM, so I personally don't see why this couldn't be utilized.

 

[Chiroz]

The landing lag wouldn't be a problem if you're precise enough. Not to mention the input is significantly easier to perform than any other action like a normal aerial other than a quick fair or bair, so there's not much of a chance you'd mess up. Just point the stick at a downward angle and dodge. It works extremely similarly to how it did in Melee/PM, so I personally don't see why this couldn't be utilized.

Because inputting nothing achieves exactly the same output and is an even easier input. I don't get why you would purposely put yourself in up to half a second of lag just because you are "precise".

 

[DarkDeity15]

Because inputting nothing achieves exactly the same output and is an even easier input. I don't get why you would purposely put yourself in up to half a second of lag just because you are "precise".

But your still moving at a similar rate either way, the only difference is that there's more of a chance you'd get hit if all you did was fall at an angle. Wavelanding (or just wave canceling as I would put it) is the safer option imo. And hey, I'm not looking for enemies here dude. Chill out.

 

[Chiroz]

But your still moving at a similar rate either way, the only difference is that there's more of a chance you'd get hit if all you did was fall at an angle. Wavelanding (or just wave canceling as I would put it) is the safer option imo. And hey, I'm not looking for enemies here dude. Chill out.

This is where you are mistaken. Doing an air dodge is what most good player will be trying to bait. It's called "frame trap" for a reason.

I am completely chill, I am not attacking you I am merely pointing out that air dodging is not safer.

Wavelanding is much different, it doesn't make you lag after you land which is precisely why it's good.

 

[DarkDeity15]

This is where you are mistaken. Doing an air dodge is what most good player will be trying to bait. It's called "frame trap" for a reason.

I am completely chill, I am not attacking you I am merely pointing out that air dodging is not safer.

Wavelanding is much different, it doesn't make you lag after you land which is precisely why it's good.

How exactly would you bait and "frame trap" something that lasts for so little time? You would need to be at the exact right place and time to even be able to react. The lag would immediately be canceled as soon as you'd come off the ledge.

And I prefer to call this wavecanceling than just plain old wavelanding anyways, since I know the manuver won't come into nearly as much handy as a full fledged waveland, but I believe it can be useful on a competitive level nontheless.

 

[Roko Jono]

In order to ledge cancel you MUST drop from the ledge. As such your aerial needs to "slide" you off the edge.

Regarding ledge canceling with an aerial I have to say as far as the demo that it is not possible. With "Slidey" moves such as Mario's fair the game does not allow a character to slip off while in landing lag. That's kind of a shame

And since I've got to try this technique, I have to agree with Raykz here that if you can call this a technique it does not have that many uses. You do slide around if you naturally land so air dodging will just ruin your options since you cannot do anything out of it when you hit the floor

 

[Chiroz]

How exactly would you bait and "frame trap" something that lasts for so little time? You would need to be at the exact right place and time to even be able to react. The lag would immediately be canceled as soon as you'd come off the ledge.

And I prefer to call this wavecanceling than just plain old wavelanding anyways, since I know the manuver won't come into nearly as much handy as a full fledged waveland, but I believe it can be useful on a competitive level nontheless.

Ok let me put it to you this way.

Let's say you are frame perfect and you land on the very ledge 1 frame away from dropping from it.

There's 2 options to accomplish this

1st option: You air dodge very close to the ground so your opponent is not aware you are going to be "lagging" from the air dodge, but then what is the point? Why would you air dodge close to the ground if you are going to lose the invincibility upon landing anyways? You have literally nothing to gain from this and you are losing a frame to lag.

2nd option: You start the air dodge a small while before landing, at which point your opponent already saw your air dodge and is waiting on the ground charging a smash or waiting for a perfectly spaced aerial/tilt. Once you land and drop from the ledge your lag is gone (1 frame later!) but your opponent having already seen your air dodge, will have already punished you (as he should have attacked or at least started his attack on that 1 frame of lag, we can't assume you are frame perfect but he isn't).





And this is if you were in fact frame perfect and were able to land specifically 1 frame away from the ledge. Assuming that you make a mistake and land 5-10 frames away, that's 5-10 lag frames your opponent can punish you with. There's still the 2 option on top, you either air dodge before landing at which point your opponent will be waiting with an Up-Smash or you do it close to the ground and give your opponent 5-10 "hit me for free" frames for no reason as the invincibility will stop as soon as you hit the ground.



The problem with this is not if you can get away with it or not. Can you do an air dodge on a ledge and get away unhit? Sure, you probably can. But 9 times out of 10 you also wouldn't have been hit if you didn't air dodge either. The air dodge isn't helping you it's just hindering you, even if it's just for 1 frame (Which we know it won't be, no one is that precise).



The only reason why you would air dodge in this fashion is to dodge an attack your opponent is already throwing, knowing that the ledge cancel will cancel your lag and you will be able to punish him afterwards. But for this to happen your opponent would have to be already charging an attack (or you would have to get a very good read) while being extremely close to an edge. Sure, if that happens then go right ahead and do this, otherwise performing an air dodge is just a huge "hit me" sign.





Also why would you air dodge if the opponent isn't even close? (You said: Your opponent would need to be in the correct place at the correct time to "frame trap" you). If he isn't even close to where you are why would you air dodge anyways?

 

[DarkDeity15]

Ok let me put it to you this way.

Let's say you are frame perfect and you land on the very ledge 1 frame away from dropping from it.

There's 2 options to accomplish this

1st option: You air dodge very close to the ground so your opponent is not aware you are going to be "lagging" from the air dodge, but then what is the point? Why would you air dodge close to the ground if you are going to lose the invincibility upon landing anyways? You have literally nothing to gain from this and you are losing a frame to lag.

2nd option: You start the air dodge a small while before landing, at which point your opponent already saw your air dodge and is waiting on the ground charging a smash or waiting for a perfectly spaced aerial/tilt. Once you land and drop from the ledge your lag is gone (1 frame later!) but your opponent having already seen your air dodge, will have already punished you (as he should have attacked or at least started his attack on that 1 frame of lag, we can't assume you are frame perfect but he isn't).





And this is if you were in fact frame perfect and were able to land specifically 1 frame away from the ledge. Assuming that you make a mistake and land 5-10 frames away, that's 5-10 lag frames your opponent can punish you with. There's still the 2 option on top, you either air dodge before landing at which point your opponent will be waiting with an Up-Smash or you do it close to the ground and give your opponent 5-10 "hit me for free" frames for no reason as the invincibility will stop as soon as you hit the ground.



The problem with this is not if you can get away with it or not. Can you do an air dodge on a ledge and get away unhit? Sure, you probably can. But 9 times out of 10 you also wouldn't have been hit if you didn't air dodge either. The air dodge isn't helping you it's just hindering you, even if it's just for 1 frame (Which we know it won't be, no one is that precise).



The only reason why you would air dodge in this fashion is to dodge an attack your opponent is already throwing, knowing that the ledge cancel will cancel your lag and you will be able to punish him afterwards. But for this to happen your opponent would have to be already charging an attack (or you would have to get a very good read) while being extremely close to an edge. Sure, if that happens then go right ahead and do this, otherwise performing an air dodge is just a huge "hit me" sign.





Also why would you air dodge if the opponent isn't even close? (You said: Your opponent would need to be in the correct place at the correct time to "frame trap" you). If he isn't even close to where you are why would you air dodge anyways?

Regardless. I still believe this can be a viable tech. You just need to know where when to do it, and it works just like wavelanding off ledges in Melee/PM. Who would be stupid enough to wavecancel right into an fsmash or something every single time anyways? The only way you could punish this tech up close is with hard reads such as the example you gave about someone charging an fsmash. You can't get a read 100% of the time, which makes them risky as well, because if the hit misses (airdodged, early/late read), it can mean punishment. And as for that last question: mid-range spacing. Throw out those quick aerials as soon as you fall off the ledge.

And let me ask you this: Which would you rather? Simply falling onto and off the ledge, or wavecanceling with a possible chance of being saved by invincibility and being able to punish a stray move almost immediately afterwards? However, I know that this tech shouldn't be used a lot throughout matches, and should be focused more on mindgames and mix-ups.

 

[Chiroz]

Regardless. I still believe this can be a viable tech. You just need to know where when to do it, and it works just like wavelanding off ledges in Melee/PM. Who would be stupid enough to wavecancel right into an fsmash or something every single time anyways? The only way you could punish this tech up close is with hard reads such as the example you gave about someone charging an fsmash. You can't get a read 100% of the time, which makes them risky as well, because if the it misses (airdodged, early/late read), it can mean punishment. And as for that last question: mid-range spacing. Throw out those quick aerials as soon as you fall off the ledge.

And let me ask you this: Which would you rather? Simply falling onto and off the ledge, or wavecanceling with a possible chance of being saved by invincibility and being able to punish a stray move almost immediately afterwards?

The situation you are describing is the same scenario I said "this only works when" and it's going to be extremely rare. In any other scenario air dodging makes no sense.

Also if you air dodge too late then you won't dodge the attack but if you air dodge too early your opponent will see the dodge and keep charging/punish accordingly. This "technique" isn't safe, it requires you outplaying your opponent by knowing what he's going to do (whether he's going to attack you right away so you can dodge early or if he's going to wait until you land) and at that point if you know what he's planning you might as well use another option available for an easier punish.



Have you played the demo? Air Dodging, even if you "dodge a move", traps you in a greater amount of lag that your opponent has from his own move. Even if you dodge an Up-Smash with your air dodge they are still able to punish you out of the air dodge landing lag. I feel like you haven't experienced just how much it lags.

Sure dropping from the ledge will cancel the lag, but no one is perfect, there will still be many frames which your opponent could have hit you if he had good reflexes or knew what you were up to. Why risk getting hit just to use this technique which may or may not allow you to hit your opponent (as there is nothing stopping your opponent from shielding, moving, jumping, rolling away, etc) (Basically it's taking a double risk).




I am not trying to attack you, I am sorry if it seems that way. It's just you seem to think that the ability of being able to cancel the lag of the air dodge justifies putting yourself in a bad position (falling into and right next to your opponent) just because it isn't all that bad of a position, it's just slightly worse than what it could have been if you hadn't done it in the first place.

If you have the option to not to fall on your opponent, then do that, don't fall on him. If there is no other option but air dodging to dodge an attack then yes, I agree, knowing that you can ledge cancel an air dodge is good for you, but that's just learning what ledge cancel is and how to perform it which you should do anyways. It has nothing to do with air dodges at that moment.




Ledge Canceling air dodges will probably see some use but most of it will probably come from good reads where you know your opponent is about to attack and you know at what exact moment he is going to attack while he is conveniently standing next to a ledge. This won't happen as often as you think it would.

Also most of the time if you can get such a read on your opponent you might as well use the ledge cancel on an aerial instead of an air dodge. Allowing you to hit your opponent and probably continue it into a string with the cancel from the ledge.

 

[Raijinken]

And here I was hoping this sort of mechanic was dead and gone.

Oh well, might be a situationally decent ledgeguard approach for some characters, I guess.

But please let the meta not revolve around this.

 

[DarkDeity15]

The situation you are describing is the same scenario I said "this only works when" and it's going to be extremely rare. In any other scenario air dodging makes no sense.

Also if you air dodge too late then you won't dodge the attack but if you air dodge too early your opponent will see the dodge and keep charging/punish accordingly. This "technique" isn't safe, it requires you outplaying your opponent by knowing what he's going to do (whether he's going to attack you right away so you can dodge early or if he's going to wait until you land) and at that point if you know what he's planning you might as well use another option available for an easier punish.



Have you played the demo? Air Dodging, even if you "dodge a move", traps you in a greater amount of lag that your opponent has from his own move. Even if you dodge an Up-Smash with your air dodge they are still able to punish you out of the air dodge landing lag. I feel like you haven't experienced just how much it lags.

Sure dropping from the ledge will cancel the lag, but no one is perfect, there will still be many frames which your opponent could have hit you if he had good reflexes or knew what you were up to. Why risk getting hit just to use this technique which may or may not allow you to hit your opponent (as there is nothing stopping your opponent from shielding, moving, jumping, rolling away, etc) (Basically it's taking a double risk).




I am not trying to attack you, I am sorry if it seems that way. It's just you seem to think that the ability of being able to cancel the lag of the air dodge justifies putting yourself in a bad position (falling into and right next to your opponent) just because it isn't all that bad of a position, it's just slightly worse than what it could have been if you hadn't done it in the first place.

If you have the option to not to fall on your opponent, then do that, don't fall on him. If there is no other option but air dodging to dodge an attack then yes, I agree, knowing that you can ledge cancel an air dodge is good for you, but that's just learning what ledge cancel is and how to perform it which you should do anyways. It has nothing to do with air dodges at that moment.




Ledge Canceling air dodges will probably see some use but most of it will probably come from good reads where you know your opponent is about to attack and you know at what exact moment he is going to attack while he is conveniently standing next to a ledge. This won't happen as often as you think it would.

Also most of the time if you can get such a read on your opponent you might as well use the ledge cancel on an aerial instead of an air dodge. Allowing you to hit your opponent and probably continue it into a string with the cancel from the ledge.

Well again, I don't believe this tech will be amazing and super useful with everyone performing it all the time either, but I can still see this being viable depending on the situation. I'm just happy that some form of wavelanding is in the game. And I live in the U.S., so no, I haven't played the demo yet (begging for codes is pitiful). I'm going by what I can see from the video. The lag doesn't look bad at all imo. But yeah, I'll have a look and see for myself tomorrow.

 

[Chiroz]

Well again, I don't believe this tech will be amazing and super useful with everyone performing it all the time, but I can still see this being viable. I'm just happy that some form of wavelanding is in the game. And I live in the U.S., so no, I haven't played the demo yet (begging for codes is pitiful). I'm going by what I can see from the video, and the lag doesn't look bad at all imo. But yeah, I have a look and see for myself tomorrow.

The lag from an air dodge is bad enough where performing an air dodge near the ground is never ever a good option, unless your opponent is performing a move with an incredible amount of lag like Warlock Punch or Rest.

For example if Mario is performing an Up-Smash and you air dodge it, you are stuck in enough lag for Mario to Forward Smash you after you land. That's how much lag we're talking about.



In fact, you lag so much that even if your opponent was more than half of final destination away from you, if you air dodged a projectile or something, he would be able to run up to you and grab you (or up smash you) before the lag was over (if he was paying attention and reacted quickly).

I know this because it's been done to me and I've done it to others. Mario fireball/Link arrow/Greninja shuriken, opponent air dodges projectile, run across half of final destination into up-smash.

 

[DarkDeity15]

The lag from an air dodge is bad enough where performing an air dodge near the ground is never ever a good option, unless your opponent is performing a move with an incredible amount of lag like Warlock Punch or Rest.

For example if Mario is performing an Up-Smash and you air dodge it, you are stuck in enough lag for Mario to Forward Smash you after you land. That's how much lag we're talking about.

I know that lol. To use it as if it were a real waveland would be stupid. I never suggested it to be used like that anyways. This tech would only be functional if you edge cancel it. It's pretty much why I call it wavecanceling instead of wavelanding.

 

[Daybreak]

I see a lot of players taking advantage of this; even if it doesn't become popular. It really depends on who the general populace play as. I'm sure it'll pick up once smash comes out for everyone. It is an interesting mechanic none the less.

 

[Zebra Dragon]

Hm, can anyone test if you can slide off the edge of the stage both with air dodge and by just inputing nothing ?

 

[Chiroz]

Hm, can anyone test if you can slide off the edge of the stage both with air dodge and by just inputing nothing ?

I did. You can slide off the stage with both. You can't slide while attacking though, your character seems "stuck" to the edge.