AIdropMC - New missile tech. Faster than SHFFMC?

[JerkPhil]

Ever since I saw Aerial Interrupt for the first time, I've been thinking it's an important technique to evolve Samus' metagame. I don't have any way to count frames, but i can imagine this technique is faster, or almost faster, than the 51 frames for a frame perfect SHFFMC. At least on low platform stages.

The technique is to jump (or instant double jump) to a platform from beneath and Aerial Interrupt (AI), then instantly do an Isai drop into missile cancel. I've practiced this for an hour or two and I'm already more consistent doing this than doing SHFFMC.

Is this technique faster than SHFFMC? Too hard to do consistent? Useless?
What's your thoughts and ideas? What's a good name for it?

Edit: here's some footage of it!

 

[Mervis]

"Oh I'm just not going to practice melee tonight."

Well now I ****ing have to, there's new missile tech. God damnit.

Not that I'm an expert or anything, but I do consider my missile game the most refined part of my Samus. I'll throw in my two cents after messing around with it.

 

[Theftz22]

Can you go through the inputs for this?

 

[pizzacato]

I already kind of did this, but easier with wavelanding on a platfrom to isai drop into missile.

 

[Mervis]

I'm honestly not sure about what this is trying to accomplish. I don't think I'm doing it right, but if I'm understanding this correctly, then I think the input for SHFFMC is easier (ikr?)

 

[JerkPhil]

I guess it's individual. I've practiced AI and SHFFMC roughly the same amount of time, and I think this is easier. The hard part is the AI in my opinion.

I added some footage in the first post.

 

[tauKhan]

Wouldn't it be easier/faster to do sh backflip no-impact-land -> drop MC? Seemed to work pretty well on bf/ps, and on dl you can instantdj NIL.

Also you can make the AI drop 4 frames faster by shai dropping instead. So uair with c-stick, press down simultaneously and time R/L on frame 4/5, i.e on the last frame of landing lag or 1 frame after. Admittedly it's much more difficult though. It's not too hard though, just tested it a bit. Because you start the shai drop simultaneously with the aerial, it's easy to combine the actions into single one and learn the muscle memory for the single action of "landing and dropping". The shai drop is two frames window, pretty easy.

We need someone to count frames, @ schmooblidon perhaps?

 

[JerkPhil]

Yeah I realize shai dropping would be faster. The new part is the AI into whatever drop into MC.
I would appreciate if someone could count the frames

 

[GoomySmash]

Just tested it in Dolphin frame-by-frame. I made one Samus do a SHFFMC on the first possible frame and I had another Samus do doublejump ->AI -> shai drop on a pokemon stadium platform and then missile on the first possible frame.

Using this method it turns out that both of the Sami were actionable on the exact same frame, so I'd assume it would only take a few frames longer to do the AI -> PC drop instead of the AI -> shai drop method.

Cool new tech! Thanks for sharing

 

[tauKhan]

@ GoomySmash Isai drop is 4 frames slower than buffered shai drop, so that's the difference. Also could you check for sh backflip NIL -> immediate drop at pokemon/bf?

 

[schmooblidon]

Just tested it in Dolphin frame-by-frame. I made one Samus do a SHFFMC on the first possible frame and I had another Samus do doublejump ->AI -> shai drop on a pokemon stadium platform and then missile on the first possible frame.

Using this method it turns out that both of the Sami were actionable on the exact same frame, so I'd assume it would only take a few frames longer to do the AI -> PC drop instead of the AI -> shai drop method.

Cool new tech! Thanks for sharing

This is confusing me. Why are you doing doublejump>ai ?

Maybe I'm missing something hear but by missiling the earliest possible, I get

SHFFMC
Missile comes out on - 46
Actionable on - 53

Fullhop AI > Shai Drop > Missile
PStadium
- Missile comes out on - 34
- Actionable on - 48
Battlefield
- Missile comes out on - 36
- Actionable on - 51
(you could theortically make this faster by fastfalling but **** that lol)

@ GoomySmash Isai drop is 4 frames slower than buffered shai drop, so that's the difference. Also could you check for sh backflip NIL -> immediate drop at pokemon/bf?

PStadium
sh backflip nil - actionable on - 38
fullhop ai - actionable on - 18

Battlefield
sh backflip nil - act on - 25
fullhop ai - act on - 20

 

[pizzacato]

Have SHFFMC become....

OBSOLETE??!!

 

[343]

not really? there's still FD and there's still places where there aren't low platforms to help you out :/

still, this seems very useful time to practice it

 

[GoomySmash]

Alright, so this is awesome. If you do a fast fall before you shoot the missile after the shai drop, you're actionable 10 frames before you would for a SHFFMC. I tested it on pokemon stadium using 4 different Sami this time.

(thanks @ schmooblidon for showing me fulljump -> AI is faster than Doubljump -> AI on pokemon stadium)

The first Samus did fulljump ->AI on first possible frame ->shai drop ->fast fall on 1st or 2nd possible frame -> Missile

The second Samus did the same thing as the first except she didn't fast fall

The third Samus did fulljump -> AI on the first possible frame ->walk 1 frame -> drop through platform (I think that's the Isai drop, not 100% sure but I did that) -> missile (no fast fall on this one either)

The last Samus did SHFFMC

Then I put up shield on all of them

Results:

1.) The AI -> Shai drop -> Fast Fall -> missile shielded first
2.) The AI -> Shai drop -> missile shielded 4 frames later
3.) The AI -> walk forward 1 frame -> drop through platform shielded 4 frames later (8 frames after Samus #1)
4.) The SHFFMC shielded 2 frames later (10 frames after Samus #1)

That leads me to think... has anyone thought to do drop through platform -> Fastfall -> missile before?
I've seen Plup do drop though platform -> fastfall -> Neutral Air, but I can't recall anyone doing that with missiles.

But anyways, this seems pretty damn fast. It might not be faster than just standing and shooting missiles though lol. You don't really have the same mobility as the SHFFMC either :/

 

[Mervis]

I've thought about ff after platform drop but it doesnt seem possible. The input is outrageous

 

[343]

I think the input for ff missile through stadium/yoshis platforms is about as hard as the shffmc input lol

 

[Theftz22]

Yo how do you shai drop lol

 

[343]

bruhhh http://smashboards.com/threads/shai-drop-update-detailed-guide-frame-data.322062/

 

[gamegod7]

I guess it's individual. I've practiced AI and SHFFMC roughly the same amount of time, and I think this is easier. The hard part is the AI in my opinion.

I added some footage in the first post.

I am so sorry if I sound like a N00b for asking this, but what is AI? and also what is an Isai drop? a special type of sheild drop?
I am someone who really wants to be good with samus so I just want to know what these things are.
also another thing I keep seeing is that people would rather do double jump cancel missiles, but isnt that slower than SHFFMC?

 

[JerkPhil]

AI = Aerial Interrupt. There's a thread here about it (http://smashboards.com/threads/ledge-dj-cancel-aerial-interrupt.311628/). Simply, it's doing an Uair at the correct height to a platform or stage to directly stand with only landing lag.
Isai drop is walking one step before dropping (quartercircle motion) through a platform. It's vital for shooting missiles faster from platforms.
As for double jump missiles, you may have noticed our short hop missiles makes us land perfectly on the platforms of Pokémon Stadium and Yoshi's Story. Battlefield's and Dreamland's side platforms are too high for short hop, and full hop is too high for that perfect landing. A really fast double jump (instant double jump) is at the perfect height for No Impact Landing (NIL) on Battlefield's side platforms, and also to get the same perfect height for missile cancels. Dreamland's side platforms are a bit higher, so you need to do the double jump just a bit slower for the same height.
SHFFMC is the fastest way to shoot missiles except for standing missiles (though they are not cancelled, nor allows movement. DJFFMC is a bit slower than SHFFMC, but faster than FHFFMC. Though we lose our second jump.

 

[tauKhan]

SHFFMC is the fastest way to shoot missiles except for standing missiles (though they are not cancelled, nor allows movement.

Dude you're underestimating your own idea in this thread

SHFFMC
Missile comes out on - 46
Actionable on - 53

Fullhop AI > Shai Drop > Missile
PStadium
- Missile comes out on - 34
- Actionable on - 48
Battlefield
- Missile comes out on - 36
- Actionable on - 51

 

[JerkPhil]

Ah, I meant without platforms Yeah it seems this technique (what should we call it?) is even faster than SHFFMC...

 

[Mervis]

You coined it man, and you seem proud of it! Jerk drop?

 

[Litt]

Well there are actually some AIs that aren't as well known, on battlefiled, under the middle part of the plats on yoshis and on pkmn, if you short hop at as you reach the apex of your jump you up air and that will also aerial interrupt.

The least known AI is on dreamland that I recently discovered, if you full hop buffer dair you will AI on the lower 2 plats, this one is frame perfect buffer but it really helps samus's mobility on dreamland

 

[pizzacato]

I'll let JerkPhil take the AI credit. but I've been doing WL on plats into isai drop missile for ages. It was my go to because I couldn't shffmc

 

[Kmac0]

@ GoomySmash @ JerkPhil
Alright, I'm gonna get super confident about this real fast. I don't think either of these techniques are the fastest way to get a missile down on the Pokemon Stadium platforms.
The fastest way would be to:
1. Jump up
2. Waveland off the platform
3. Do an immediate fastfall
4. Missile
It's a relatively tight timing on Pokemon Stadium, it's easier to do on Battlefield and on Dreamland. I actually have another new tech I wanted to master before talking about it, and it involves something similar. I'll post about it soon instead of saying it here.


And for those who are interested in all of these platform shenanigans. Some food for thought.
I feel that No Impact Lands (NIL) are really important, and Samus has a lot of easy setups that I'm sure you've all run into before.

(This setup is kinda stupid but it's still interesting I guess) You can do a NIL on the side dreamland platforms if you waveland offstage and do an immediate double-jump (works on battlefield and Yoshi's too, it might also work on some of the Fountain platforms heights)

You can also shorthop and get a NIL on battlefield. But it HAS to be a backwards shorthop, because of the way Samus's ECB changes when she does her morph-ball backflip as she jumps backwards.

Short-hop > NIL also works on Yoshi's side platforms and Pokemon platforms. But those aren't restricted to directional inputs.

PewPewU made a great video describing NIL and its uses, I highly recommend watching it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhujDoRBXeY

 

[pizzacato]

@ GoomySmash @ JerkPhil
Alright, I'm gonna get super confident about this real fast. I don't think either of these techniques are the fastest way to get a missile down on the Pokemon Stadium platforms.
The fastest way would be to:
1. Jump up
2. Waveland off the platform
3. Do an immediate fastfall
4. Missile
It's a relatively tight timing on Pokemon Stadium, it's easier to do on Battlefield and on Dreamland. I actually have another new tech I wanted to master before talking about it, and it involves something similar. I'll post about it soon instead of saying it here.


And for those who are interested in all of these platform shenanigans. Some food for thought.
I feel that No Impact Lands (NIL) are really important, and Samus has a lot of easy setups that I'm sure you've all run into before.

(This setup is kinda stupid but it's still interesting I guess) You can do a NIL on the side dreamland platforms if you waveland offstage and do an immediate double-jump (works on battlefield and Yoshi's too, it might also work on some of the Fountain platforms heights)

You can also shorthop and get a NIL on battlefield. But it HAS to be a backwards shorthop, because of the way Samus's ECB changes when she does her morph-ball backflip as she jumps backwards.

Short-hop > NIL also works on Yoshi's side platforms and Pokemon platforms. But those aren't restricted to directional inputs.

PewPewU made a great video describing NIL and its uses, I highly recommend watching it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhujDoRBXeY

Poofy Cancels tho.

 

[schmooblidon]

Well considering it is easier to fastfall this way, it would be faster to land, but slower to missile.

Perfect waveland > fastfall > missile (only 1 frame of waveland landing lag)
land on 18, fastfall on 21, missile on 22, missile comes out 36, land on 41

But an edgecancelled AI would be even faster.
land on 14, fastfall on 17, missile on 18, missile comes out on 32, land on 37

 

[Litt]

@ GoomySmash @ JerkPhil
Alright, I'm gonna get super confident about this real fast. I don't think either of these techniques are the fastest way to get a missile down on the Pokemon Stadium platforms.
The fastest way would be to:
1. Jump up
2. Waveland off the platform
3. Do an immediate fastfall
4. Missile
It's a relatively tight timing on Pokemon Stadium, it's easier to do on Battlefield and on Dreamland. I actually have another new tech I wanted to master before talking about it, and it involves something similar. I'll post about it soon instead of saying it here.


And for those who are interested in all of these platform shenanigans. Some food for thought.
I feel that No Impact Lands (NIL) are really important, and Samus has a lot of easy setups that I'm sure you've all run into before.

(This setup is kinda stupid but it's still interesting I guess) You can do a NIL on the side dreamland platforms if you waveland offstage and do an immediate double-jump (works on battlefield and Yoshi's too, it might also work on some of the Fountain platforms heights)

You can also shorthop and get a NIL on battlefield. But it HAS to be a backwards shorthop, because of the way Samus's ECB changes when she does her morph-ball backflip as she jumps backwards.

Short-hop > NIL also works on Yoshi's side platforms and Pokemon platforms. But those aren't restricted to directional inputs.

PewPewU made a great video describing NIL and its uses, I highly recommend watching it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhujDoRBXeY

Ive been doing this since last year dude, not new, andyou can just tell its faster by feeling it out, hardest version of this tech is running off the yoshi plats towards center stage, and firing a misisle in the direction you run off while still fast falling

 

[Kmac0]

Ive been doing this since last year dude, not new, andyou can just tell its faster by feeling it out, hardest version of this tech is running off the yoshi plats towards center stage, and firing a misisle in the direction you run off while still fast falling

I know it's not new, but I didn't know that this was doable at all on Yoshi's.
Fastfall missile is the future, and by future I mean it should be the present but not enough people go for it imo.

 

[Litt]

I know it's not new, but I didn't know that this was doable at all on Yoshi's.
Fastfall missile is the future, and by future I mean it should be the present but not enough people go for it imo.

Its a mix up that is not as explored for technical capability of most sami, but i disagree that it is the future, as soon as your opponent knows you can get those missiles out, your gamplan should be switching to fast fall fairs and up airs instead or fast fall wd into uptilts, samus's thrive with unpredicability because of the sheer number of mix up options, dont confuse 20xx with samus

also wanna know how I found out it was doable on yoshis? I started on dreamland, and just worked my way to smaller and shorter plats and kept trying on different game speeds to see if the techs I wanted to do were even possible, you dont need a hackpack or frame data to find stuff out like this, just practice and creativity

 

[343]

@ JerkPhil and @ T tauKhan convinced me to try this out on stream, so here it is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCsWCDTcD2w

(if you look closely, you'll notice that although I chose the time bounds for the gfycat to approximate a loop, the missile cancel right before the AI shai drop mc is a bit higher )

 

[Mervis]

That looks insanely hard for something that saves like 3 frames.

 

[JerkPhil]

Not only that, you can also change the momentum, mindgame into waveland, or drop into something else.

Even faster to do it with instant double jump right?

 

[343]

no, I thought @ schmooblidon established above that fulljump AI is faster than dj AI

 

[JerkPhil]

At all heights?

 

[Litt]

At all heights?

ya

 

[JerkPhil]

ya

Cool!

 

[GoomySmash]

At all heights?

Except for dreamland platforms. It's faster to do DJ AI.

 

[Litt]

Except for dreamland platforms. It's faster to do DJ AI.

eh, I find the time saved is not worth the reduced accuracy of hitting the up air, especially since the dj changes samus's hurtboxes