Agnostic, not a religion

[CRASHiC]

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There was a debate hall debate about this not to long ago, and I did some research and pondering, and I've decided that Agnostics have no religion, while strong Atheist in fact do.

This is the difference between nonbelief and disbelief. It is important to to distinguish between the two-between believing an idea false and merly not believing it true. Disbelief is a case of belief; to believe a sentence is false is to believe the negation of the sentence true. We disbelieve that there are ghost; we believe that there are none. Nonbelief is the state of suspended judgment; neither believing the sentence true nor believing it false.

If we look at religion, we define it as a system of beliefs upon the idea of a higher power or powers, and our opinion on their role in our lives and the world. Atheist believe that there is no god, while agnostics neither believe that there is a god, nor believe that there isn't one.

From this I draw that Agnostic is not a religious affiliation, while I do consider atheist a religious group.

I dont quiet understand what you call a religion. Can you tell us your personal opinion on what the minimum qualifications are to be a religion? (for crash)

1. must be a belife on the higher power

to be a 'religion' in terms of something more organized
2. must be named
3. must have a group identifying themselves with this named group

I consider my self to be very religious because I have a very strict idea of God and his place in the world and universe.

Secondly, saying that Atheist have 1 belief is a little misleading. It can easily be summed up as NO GOD, however, there are other things that religion includes, and by saying NO GOD, he also checks off on this list as well, such as what God has done for man, what god has done for the universe, what god's place is in the events of our every day lives. To all of these, check off NONE for the atheist.

 

[john!]

Atheism isn't a religion, it's a faith. Most atheists don't realize this and seem to think that they go by facts alone. Agnostics (who outnumber atheists) realize that both positions require faith and choose not to take a side.

tl;dr You're correct.

 

[_Keno_]

I do agree with your points on the differences of Agnostic and Atheist, but I do not agree that Atheism is a religion. A religion is a set of beliefs, while Atheism is a single disbelief.

And john, calling Atheism a faith is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

 

[mountain_tiger]

Atheism isn't a religion.

Atheism is merely the absence of belief in any gods or higher powers or spirits. Agnosticism is where you aren't sure either way. To be considered a religion, it needs to have some belief of the existence of a deity or other spiritual entity, be that personal or impersonal.

 

[Frown]

re•li•gion |riˈlijən|
noun
the belief in and worship of a superhuman
controlling power, esp. a personal God or gods

Belief, yes. Belief in a higher being, no.

 

[_Keno_]

Buddism wouldn't fall under that definition, i think.

 

[CRASHiC]

Frown, the definition you provided is the same definition of cult.
Religion is nothing more or less than beliefs of the higher power. Believing that he does not exist is still a belief involving the higher power.

"it would be foolish to set up an abstract definition of religion's essence, and then proceed to defend that definition from all comers."

Thomas A. Tweed. Crossing and Dwelling: A Theory of Religion. New York: Havard University Press, 2006. p.35.

"there cannot be a universal definition of religion ... because that definition is itself the historical product of discursive processes"

Talal Asad, Genealogies of Religion (Johns Hopkins University Press.)

 

[john!]

According to Frown's definition, atheism isn't a religion. It is a faith, though, because you draw conclusions based on unsupported beliefs. You can never get atheists to admit to this though, because if they knew it was true they'd become agnostics.

It's a faith just like taking a position on abortion, gun control, drug control, etc. is a faith. You don't really know that what you're saying is correct.

 

[mountain_tiger]

By your logic, that's like saying that someone who doesn't eat pears follows an organisation involved with eating pears.

 

[CRASHiC]

Religion is a faith.
Also, you are misusing the word faith.
Faith does not mean opinion

The word you are looking for is Belief.

By your logic, that's like saying that someone who doesn't eat pears follows an organisation involved with eating pears.

Except, this has no name, and these people do not identify themselves as such. An atheist indicates himself as atheist, thus identifying himself with a set of established beliefs.

 

[Frown]

I found this other definition:

1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

According to this one, atheism IS a religion.

 

[altairian]

religion: "a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs."

"a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe"

Once again for the slightly challenged kids

"a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe"

Atheism can be defined as a religion as long as by their steadfast belief that there is no god, they also have a belief about the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe. The big bang theory fits in quite nicely here, I think.

edit: beat to the punch =(

 

[Mewter]

*Facepalm facepalm facepalm facepalm facepalm facepalm *.
It's time an atheist came in here and set things straight.

If I call myself non-vegetarian, am I inclined to follow a very set of beliefs? Just like non-vegetarians, atheists come in variety. There is nothing in common but one thing: lack of religion. Everything else is free-for-all.

An atheist can just as easily be pro-life and believe the universe came from a man's nose.
Keep in mind that there are many definitions for these things, so all this debate is is a semantic one.

 

[highfive]

This blog blows my mind. I was having a trip just reading the OP.

 

[_Keno_]

It's a faith just like taking a position on abortion, gun control, drug control, etc. is a faith. You don't really know that what you're saying is correct.

As crash has already said, you seem to be confusing faith and opinion. A stance on gun control or abortion can neither be right nor wrong.

 

[_Keno_]

According to this one, atheism IS a religion.

is? dont you mean isnt? Atheism is composed of one single belief, not as set. Sure, most atheism believe in big bang or whatnot, but you can be an atheist while not believing that. There is no atheist doctrine.

Oops, double post...bahaaa...

 

[2.72]

Mewter: well said.

There's a huge difference between one belief and a system of beliefs. At the minimum, a religion must be the latter, and atheism is not such a system. EDIT: basically what cheap peach said. Ninja

Frown, and people responding to his definition: Notice the word "especially." A religion might not, by that definition, have a personal god.

 

[CRASHiC]

*Facepalm facepalm facepalm facepalm facepalm facepalm *.
It's time an atheist came in here and set things straight.

If I call myself non-vegetarian, am I inclined to follow a very set of beliefs? Just like non-vegetarians, atheists come in variety. There is nothing in common but one thing: lack of religion. Everything else is free-for-all.

An atheist can just as easily be pro-life and believe the universe came from a man's nose.
Keep in mind that there are many definitions for these things, so all this debate is is a semantic one.

You misunderstand religion completely. I consider myself very religious. Religion has NOTHING to do with a set moral code. No, instead, this is how others have misused it throughout the years.
You identify yourself as Atheist. You identify yourself with a set of beliefs on the higher power. This is all a religion is. A religion is nothing more.

 

[altairian]

If I call myself non-vegetarian, am I inclined to follow a very set of beliefs? Just like non-vegetarians, atheists come in variety. There is nothing in common but one thing: lack of religion. Everything else is free-for-all.

If you stop and think about it, you could say the exact same thing about the belief in God. How many different religions are there? They tend to share common ideas but there are wildly different religions out there. The only real difference is that atheists don't organize in any way.

 

[_Keno_]

I dont quiet understand what you call a religion. Can you tell us your personal opinion on what the minimum qualifications are to be a religion? (for crash)

 

[Mewter]

You misunderstand religion completely. I consider myself very religious. Religion has NOTHING to do with a set moral code. No, instead, this is how others have misused it throughout the years.
You identify yourself as Atheist. You identify yourself with a set of beliefs on the higher power. This is all a religion is. A religion is nothing more.

Atheist is capitalized now? Phooey. You also forget there are different definitions of atheism, the most literal being "with no theism", or in other words, no religion. See, I told you this argument was and is semantic. Everyone has different definitions for everything.

Religion has nothing to do with a set moral code...?
There's a huge flaw there. Ten Commandments. You must follow them. Buddist Karma. Make sure you do good or it will come back to bite you!

If that's the case, too, then you have agnostics on a run for their money! Did you know that you can be atheist and agnostic at the same time? Yeah, it's possible.

Anyways, I'm out of here. This place is like a deathtrap.

 

[CRASHiC]

I dont quiet understand what you call a religion. Can you tell us your personal opinion on what the minimum qualifications are to be a religion? (for crash)

1. must be a belife on the higher power

to be a 'religion' in terms of something more organized
2. must be named
3. must have a group identifying themselves with this named group

I consider my self to be very religious because I have a very strict idea of God and his place in the world and universe.

Secondly, saying that Atheist have 1 belief is a little misleading. It can easily be summed up as NO GOD, however, there are other things that religion includes, and by saying NO GOD, he also checks off on this list as well, such as what God has done for man, what god has done for the universe, what god's place is in the events of our every day lives. To all of these, check off NONE for the atheist.

Religion has nothing to do with a set moral code...?
There's a huge flaw there. Ten Commandments. You must follow them. Buddist Karma. Make sure you do good or it will come back to bite you!

That's people USING religion to promote their own moral ideas. those in truth IMO have nothing to do with God what so ever.

If that's the case, too, then you have agnostics on a run for their money! Did you know that you can be atheist and agnostic at the same time? Yeah, it's possible.

That's a pure misuse of the English Language.

 

[Sucumbio]

Link to original post: Agnostic, not a religion
There was a debate hall debate about this not to long ago, and I did some research and pondering, and I've decided that Agnostics have no religion, while strong Atheist in fact do.

I will use two sources for each definition before analysis... *(dictionary.com and webster.com, wish I could access OED but they want money ;.; )

religion:

1.) a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

2.) a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith

atheist:

1.) one who believes that there is no deity

2.) a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.

agnostic:

1.) a person who holds that the existence of the ultimate cause, as God, and the essential nature of things are unknown and unknowable, or that human knowledge is limited to experience.

2.) a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god

-------------------

So as we can see, technically, Atheists -can- be considered religious. They BELIEVE or have FAITH that there is no God.

An agnostic hasn't made that determination. They neither believe nor disbelieve there is a God. This in itself is a belief... and so could be construed as a religion. A religion of Nothing. Faith in the idea that humans cannot know the existence of God, so its existence cannot be known (or not known).

Agnostics are much more difficult to categorize as being religious or not.

Also we shouldn't confuse Atheism or Agnosticism with Non-Spirituality. There are plenty of people that 'believe' in the ultimate power of humanity, and its ability to transcend nature, But that's kinda getting off topic.

Ultimately it appears as if Atheism -is- technically a religion, where agnosticism is arguably not.

 

[Firus]

This reminds me of the book Life of Pi, if any of you have read it.

For those that haven't, there is one particular passage where the main character (who is quite religious) points out basically that he respects Atheists despite not believing in a God as he does, but he finds Agnostics to be silly since choosing "doubt as a philosophy of life is akin to choosing immobility as a means of transportation."

I found the novel quite enjoyable. The only problem I had was that I took offense to the fact that the author was very clearly saying "LOL AGNOSTICISM SUCKS".
Not to mention that in another passage it basically says on their deathbed, Atheists will suddenly believe in a God, which is the right thing, and Agnostics will continue to believe what they do (or don't) and therefore do the wrong thing.

But that is neither here nor there, that was just a random thought that I had.

Of course, this topic is merely saying that Agnosticism isn't a religion, not really taking an opinion on it.

Though as usual, I have to question what the usefulness of the question is if it doesn't really say much. Agnostics such as myself choose to take on that belief instead of a religion. I am Agnostic, therefore I do not agree with Christianity or another religion in that a God exists, nor do I agree with Atheism in that a God doesn't exist. Agnosticism takes the place of a religion, whether or not it is one.