Aerial Interrupts on Battlefield?

[cisyphus]

I'm having a bit of a problem here: I can get the Aerial Interrupts from ledge relatively consistently on every stage, but Battlefield alone causes me problems with it. My method on other stages has been to essentially do a SWD kinda of input: I'll hit back to ledgedrop, and immediately smash the stick toward the stage will also jumping. In my mind, this should be giving me the optimal AI inputs (and it appears to do so in practice as well**), as I spend the lowest amount of frames actually falling. But when I do this on Battlefield, I get caught under the stage. What inputs could I use to mitigate this problem? Could this input maintain the advantages of my current inputs, or should I learn an entirely different method for Battlefield?

**Additionally, if I'm mistaken on this point, correct me. I seem to have trouble getting the invincible haxdash as well, but I attribute that to not acting on the earliest frame of the ledgegrab, the auto-cancel landing, or both.

As an aside, how much worth is there in using AI on platforms (not strictly in the context of Battlefield, either)? I'm thinking of it in the context of techchases, but am not sure if it's faster to AI -> smash turn (if necessary) -> down smash / AI -> F-Smash versus DJ -> down air into a free followup. I assume the former, but then there's the question of whether f-smash/down smash is better than d-air -> b-air / n-air. You might also be able to AI -> Smash turn (if necessary) -> u-tilt to get the same basic concept as dair, but be way more flashy about it / punish a jump harder.

FJ AI on Battlefield Side Platform:
01-03: jumpsquat
04-13: Airborne, Up air won't AC
14: Up Air input
15: Up Air startup
16: Auto-cancel on platform
17-20: landing lag
21: first actionable frame

The up air also auto-cancels with a frame 15 input. If you short hop, you get a whole bunch of available frames to AI (20-37) but obviously trades speed for consistency. Doing a fast DJ probably affects this as well, but that's a lot more variability than I'm willing to tackle.

 

[343]

AI on Battlefield is definitely really hard; when I was trying to do it, I tried to delay the "towards-stage control stick" and upair inputs. Pretty sure this makes it too slow to get invincibility though. I think most people currently think it's "too risky" to try to AI on Battlefield :/

I'm not actually sure whether platform AI -> utilt / a smash to platform techchase is better than doublejump dair. The only time when I consider using platform AI is to follow up a really high uthrow or utilt trajectory that I'd ordinarily waveland straight down on the platform -> double jump to hit. I guess people just have to try out new AI things...?

 

[GoomySmash]

I've spent hours trying to figure this out, and I finally found something that works perfectly.

This is the optimal way to do AI from the ledge.
1.) Grab ledge
2.) Release ledge by lightly pressing down and towards the stage. Not for enough down that you fastfall, not so far to the stage that you do a regular get up. So for example if I'm on the Left ledge of battlefield then I would press the control stick to the diagonal notch halfway between straight down and straight towards the stage. But not actually touching the notch, just lightly pressing in the direction of that notch so that you let go but don't fast fall
3.) Immediately jump with x or y and keep holding the same direction with the control stick
4.) Wait a fraction of a second
5.) Press c-stick up (or alternatively control stick up and A. I use the claw method so C-stick is easy for me)

This way you can jump on the earliest possible frame and get the AI. I've noticed that if I'm not jumping towards the stage and basically riding hard up against it (battlefield for example) it's waaaay harder to get the AI.

I've noticed that when attempting the AI there's a good way and a bad way.

Bad way: Let go of ledge, jump with the control stick in neutral, then move the control stick towards the stage and try to AI

Good way, Let go of ledge, hold the control stick towards the stage, jump forward, keep holding forward, AI.
If you do it the good way but mess up the AI and do an upair, Samus will go farther towards the middle of the stage than the bad way.

I've actually found battlefield to be the best stage to practice because if you jump too late you bump your head, and you want to jump as fast as possible on all stages so you get the most invincibility, so BF conditions you to jump immediately.

If you're holding the control stick too close to straight down then it will be harder to AI. You've got to make sure the control stick is right on the edge of doing a regular getup.

Also, the great thing about doing it this way is that you can invincible haxdash really easily as well with the same inputs. Lightly hold towards the stage, immediately jump, waveland back. It makes it super easy to transition between haxdashing and AI from the ledge. Before I was using the C-stick to let go the ledge and it was a nightmare.

 

[schmooblidon]

2.) Release ledge by lightly pressing down and towards the stage. Not for enough down that you fastfall, not so far to the stage that you do a regular get up. So for example if I'm on the Left ledge of battlefield then I would press the control stick to the diagonal notch halfway between straight down and straight towards the stage. But not actually touching the notch, just lightly pressing in the direction of that notch so that you let go but don't fast fal

This is pretty genius. Personally I find rolling from down (to drop) to the diagonal notch then doublejumping, the easiest even though the timing is tight. But just the idea of using a smaller, but still high enough, horizontal value to have enough horizontal velocity to be able to AI but not enough to bump your head. Pretty damn genius.

AI to platform is almost always the fastest way to land on a platform.
I did a comparison the other day for getting to battlefield lower plats:

Insta-DJ to NIL - act on 42

Fullhop Waveland - act on 30

Shorthop AI - act on 26

Insta-DJ to AI - act on 23

Shorthop to DJ on airborne frame 3 to NIL - act on 21

Fullhop AI - act on 20

People should AI more, I started doing Doc's as a movement tool a while ago, it's not even that much faster then waveland but I can definitely feel the difference. You guys have a real AI, you should use it!

 

[GoomySmash]

Huh. I didn't know that full hop AI is faster than instant double jump AI. I always assumed doublejump would be faster. do You know if instant doublejump is different than doublejump a few frames later? I'll have to test this

 

[GoomySmash]

So from what I've tested in dolphin it seems like if you doublejump a few frames later than an instant DJ, that you can AI a few frames (maybe 1-2) faster than instant DJ -> AI, but not as fast as fulljump -> AI. The later you do the doublejump, though, the harder it is to AI.

 

[cisyphus]

<3<3 you guys. great thing to come home to after Sweet XVIII.

Definitely was also doing suboptimal doublejumps as well, 'cause I was getting full invincibility at the tournament today.

 

[GoomySmash]

So this is sort of related but I just tested doing doublejump ->perfect horizontal waveland on a battlefield platform vs fulljump -> perfect horizontal waveland. It turns out that depending on what frame you doublejump you can waveland a few (maybe 1-2) frames before a Samus that did a fullhop can. I also think that doublejump -> horizontal waveland is a little more lenient on the timing but I'm not 100% sure.

So if you want to be a 20XX Samus, do an AI from the ledge of battlefield, do a doublejump horizontal waveland on the side platform then do fullhop ->AI on the top platform and punish a fox's high recovery (although I'm not sure if doing all of that is actually fast enough to punish him, but whatever it'll look cool)

 

[schmooblidon]

Huh. I didn't know that full hop AI is faster than instant double jump AI. I always assumed doublejump would be faster. do You know if instant doublejump is different than doublejump a few frames later? I'll have to test this

So Fullhop has an initial velocity of 2.100.

DoubleJump has an initial velocity of 1.824.

Gravity will slow you down by 0.066 each frame.

So on airborne frame 5 of Fullhop you will have a velocity of 1.836, and frame 6 a velocity of 1,770. Thus the most beneficial time to DoubleJump would be on frame 6.

Also in case you wanted to know, Shorthop has an initial velocity of 1.700.

Now there is also the ECB lock that you need to consider. Whenever you jump or doublejump, the bottom of your ECB is in a locked position for 9 frames. This means you cannot possibly AI until frame 11, as the ECB must update on frame 10, so it can be pushed downward on frame 11. As samus' upair AI occurs on either frame 3 or 4 of her upair, you can conclude that the earliest possible time to AI from whatever jump is by Upairing on frame 8.

So this above rule stops DJ AI from being faster, because when you DJ on frame 6 of fullhop, and then upair on frame 8 of DJ, you will be too far above the platform, except on Dreamland, but even there you are still too high for it to be faster then just fullhop AI.

So as you already figured out, DJ is best for wavelanding, because you can get your ECB above the platform faster and you can also perfect waveland due to the ECB shrinking.

 

[343]

wow @ GoomySmash I'll definitely try your AI/haxdash method out! I've been using control stick away (which is definitely not giving me all the invincibility frames), so maybe this will help a lot

edit: tried the Goomy AI method. I'm having very little success (2 successes out of 50+ tries?) but I'll keep trying I'm trying to doublejump as fast as possible after dropping, but it always seems like my upair comes out too high above the stage?

also I've been shorthop AIing to platforms fulljump AI is definitely faster, but is much harder for me lol (because shorthop moves at a slower velocity, it's easier to time)

 

[343]

@ GoomySmash sorry my stream ended abruptly yesterday; our internet cut out

I'm sorta getting the hang of your method but I feel like I'm still cheating?? idk. I feel like I have to drop pretty far before doublejumping in order to get the upair to actually AI (but maybe when you wrote "immediately" that's not like "1 frame later," but more like "5-6 frames later.")

 

[GoomySmash]

@ GoomySmash sorry my stream ended abruptly yesterday; our internet cut out

I'm sorta getting the hang of your method but I feel like I'm still cheating?? idk. I feel like I have to drop pretty far before doublejumping in order to get the upair to actually AI (but maybe when you wrote "immediately" that's not like "1 frame later," but more like "5-6 frames later.")

If that method works for you I'd say go for it, but you should be able to jump 1 frame later and get the AI if you got the angle correctly. If you do the doublejump a few frames later you won't have as much invincibility. I started out similarly (doing a later jump to get the AI easier) but I eventually figured out the angle method and decided to do that instead.

 

[343]

welp, i guess i'll keep trying it lol

thanks!!

 

[Litt]

welp, i guess i'll keep trying it lol

thanks!!

switched to this method myself, I still use alt way for hax dashing, however the problems you are having can be explained by one of the following; you aren't getting the right angle of let go from the ledge for the DI towards the stage, you are too slow with your up air, or only other possible problem is you don't jump first frame and you start up air too soon so it doesn't get canceled

 

[343]

mhm, I think my main problem is the jumping first frame. Thanks!

 

[Litt]

mhm, I think my main problem is the jumping first frame. Thanks!

Reason I switched to this method is because I can even consistently do it on netplay lol

 

[Litt]

mhm, I think my main problem is the jumping first frame. Thanks!

btw, love hax dashing on ledge now, so much fun now that its consistent
https://youtu.be/bOe5kxOtJGY