Adding New Clones: Good or Bad?

[Gabukin]

Clones are a pretty lazy excuse for a character, I'll admit, but I'n my opinion it really depends on how they are different the clone characters are from the actual character they are cloned from. Like Fox and Falco are clones and they play similarly but their move properties feel unique enough to make them feel like their own character. That's all I really care about when it comes to clones, as long as the moves have properties that make them notably different I'm okay with them

 

[ThePlacidPlatypus]

I have a question. How is Luigi a clone? He only has the same b as mario... And their fireballs have different physics. Their up b is as different as Snake and Rob's and they share 0 a's. I mean if Mario and Luigi are clones then 90% of the roster is... Link, olimar and Samus clones because they have tethers. Jiggly puff and Sonic clones, they both have a rolling attack. Pika uh and Luigi clones, same side b. I mean that's just ridiculous.

He was a clone in Smash 64. He got revamped from Melee on, where he only shared some of his moves. That's why people use the term luigified to refer to a character that only shares some moves. You won't really find many people that would call him a straight up clone.

 

[ShredPix]

I'm OK with Luigified clones (Like Wolf, Lucas, and...Luigi) Toon Link happens to be just above where I draw the line sine his game is different enough to warrant another slot, but if you get Falcondorf bad (which I hope is not the case with Marth/Lucina but it would make slightly more sense), then we have a problem. What I HATE is when clones are used for pure roster inflation, because then it's just there for the sake of numbers. As long as Smash 4 is not as bad as Melee in terms of clones (which was horrid in the respect), they're fine.

 

[TheDMonroeShow]

I actually rather like clones for a few reasons. For instance I've seen plenty of people prefer playing as one clone to the other because some small changes in a move set and the physics of the character that end up creating a surprisingly different play style, take wolf and fox or toon link and link for example. Some people strongly prefer one despite major similarities between them.

Not only that but back in melee Sakurai said the amount of time it took to make the 6 clones was equal to one new moveset. If that happens with smash 4 I'm completely fine with it, just as long as it's not to many and the clones are diverse enough to warrant the character again like wolf or toon link. Also I'd prefer if it kept to making sense..like lucina and marth seem logical since she does in fact fight like him but falcon and ganon not so much.

 

[Dracometeor]

He was a clone in Smash 64. He got revamped from Melee on, where he only shared some of his moves. That's why people use the term luigified to refer to a character that only shares some moves. You won't really find many people that would call him a straight up clone.

I understand this, but since melee he has been his own entity and people shouldn't refer to him as an example of clones in current games. Thanks.

 

[Metallaeus]

Clones are fine. As long as the majority of the cast are diverse, it hardly makes a difference and sometimes subtle differences are what makes a character unique. It's not like they take away from the rest of the game. People can call clones lazy, but I'd take clones any day over just straight up not having the character. Imagine a Smash Bros without Luigi, Toon Link, Ganon, or Falco.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Lucina could have had some changes since that video depending on when it was made.

Plus there's the possibility she could be decloned through a patch maybe.

Two words: custom movesets. I really hope the competitive community takes this into consideration and actually spends time experimenting with this so that clones are further differentiated from their counterparts.

Also, on this topic:

Good- boosts the roster
Bad- lack creativity and will always be disappointing to a small degree
Good- makes which characters to cut in the next game a lot easier choice to make
Bad- god help you if become attached to any of them by the time the next game is announced because speculation will be nerve wracking

I'm all for semiclones like Luigi and Lucas but I can't say I'm totally on board with how we're going back to Melee style clones. God knows I died a little inside when I unlocked in Melee and proceeded to try them out...Granted, my disappointment with was signiciantly worse and large enough to blot out the sun and rain down salty tears for months following but the other two were still buzzkills in their own right.

 

[Halfhead]

I reckon I should talk about Falco and Wolf a bit. In Brawl, they are both semi-clones (Lucas is too). This is understood by most.

In Melee, however, Falco is a legit clone. He's probably the most different of all Melee clones, but I would say not enough to differentiate him into a whole new category like Luigi. You can even tell by the design of the CSS in Melee: if you raise the board away from you using the c-stick, you'll find that Doc, Falco, Pichu, Roy, Young Link, and Ganondorf are all depressed a bit lower than the rest of the characters.

Additionally, before any characters are unlocked, there are only five question blocks for unlockable characters at the bottom of the screen. These are for Jigglypuff, Marth, Mr. Game & Watch, Mewtwo, and Luigi.

You can think of the six Melee clones, Falco included, as being the first form of character customization and alternate costumes all rolled into one. Ganondorf is at once an expansion of move options and a skin for Captain Falcon.

I don't love Lucina, though. I don't have issues with her being a clone, I just have issues with her.

My issue is that she both looks like she plays almost exacty like Marth and LOOKS exactly like Marth. Part of the reason the Melee clones make sense as characters is because they look like they have important but slight differences just from their appearences.

The Melee clones are at least easily identifiable.

I would have prefered Marth, Ike, Robin, and Lyn where Lyn plays just like Lucina. That way, it at least looks more diverse. Lyn would also represent the remaining Fire Emblem canon (also solvable by Roy, but whatever).

 

[praline]

I reckon I should talk about Falco and Wolf a bit. In Brawl, they are both semi-clones (Lucas is too). This is understood by most.

In Melee, however, Falco is a legit clone. He's probably the most different of all Melee clones, but I would say not enough to differentiate him into a whole new category like Luigi. You can even tell by the design of the CSS in Melee: if you raise the board away from you using the c-stick, you'll find that Doc, Falco, Pichu, Roy, Young Link, and Ganondorf are all depressed a bit lower than the rest of the characters.

Additionally, before any characters are unlocked, there are only five question blocks for unlockable characters at the bottom of the screen. These are for Jigglypuff, Marth, Mr. Game & Watch, Mewtwo, and Luigi.

You can think of the six Melee clones, Falco included, as being the first form of character customization and alternate costumes all rolled into one. Ganondorf is at once an expansion of move options and a skin for Captain Falcon.

I don't love Lucina, though. I don't have issues with her being a clone, I just have issues with her.

My issue is that she both looks like she plays almost exacty like Marth and LOOKS exactly like Marth. Part of the reason the Melee clones make sense as characters is because they look like they have important but slight differences just from their appearences.

The Melee clones are at least easily identifiable.

I would have prefered Marth, Ike, Robin, and Lyn where Lyn plays just like Lucina. That way, it at least looks more diverse. Lyn would also represent the remaining Fire Emblem canon (also solvable by Roy, but whatever).

Lucina looks nothing like Marth.

 

[SuperMii3D]

Lucina looks nothing like Marth.

Fire Emblem Awakening proves you wrong....

 

[MudkipUniverse]

You have been on this forum for 11 years. And you play casually? weird...

Well, for one not everybody is competitive or cares about the 'metagame'.

(Understand I am not bashing the competitive side, though). For me, I'm not competitive, and for me this is a new character that I get to play as, and one I really wanted on top of that.

 

[praline]

Fire Emblem Awakening proves you wrong....

Did you even play it? Even when she pretends to be Marth she looks nothing like the real Marth.

 

[SuperMii3D]

Did you even play it? Even when she pretends to be Marth she looks nothing like the real Marth.

Well, she kinda does (When she has the mask on ) but besides that youre right.

 

[Renji64]

I don't have a issue with clones. They play different and have different properties. They are more fun than a dittos match and it is cool to have a few here and there. There are alot more new playstyles in this smash so i don't see the issue. Alot of people love tradtional fighters and they are full of clones to a extent.

 

[Bassoonist]

You have been on this forum for 11 years. And you play casually? weird...

Not particularly. Back when I joined the forum I was like "Cool, a Super Smash Bros. site!" Back then I was like super obsessed with Melee (in a non-competitive way, yes).

Nevertheless, the vast majority of my posts here come from character speculation, mostly pre-Brawl. Thankfully character speculation has always revolved around other things than "This character will benefit the metagame the most!" or whatever.

 

[Khao]

I don't mind clones, when it makes sense for the character, and it's a worthwhile addition, they're a ****ing perfect way to add an extra character "for free" (as in, they're less work both to implement and balance than anyone else). Basically, if they actually work better as clones/semi-clones than they would as as completely unique characters because of how similar they are canonically, they're good clones in my book. Also, when they're there because they "deserve" being in the game rather than getting there purely because of their clone-y status.

I ****ing hate clones that don't make sense, or are evidently just filler.

Falco is a good clone. Dude's a part of the same team as Fox, so it makes sense that he has the same gear and fighting style. But that's not just everything, he actually gives his own spin to the style meaning he actually feels different to play as, he has a different rhythm, and especially in Brawl, a lot of moves work differently, even while they're still similar enough to Fox's so you can still see some similarities.

Luigi is a good clone too, he's Mario's brother, and already has the same abilities as Mario in their own game. But again, both in Smash and their own series, while having the same abilities, they each have different quirks.

Now take stuff like Ganondorf. Clones like Ganondorf are freaking harmful to both the game and the character. It makes it seem like they're not even trying and comes across as lazy, (even when they give him custom animations so it's technically the same amount of work) it doesn't make sense in that Captain Falcon and Ganon have nothing to do with eachother whatsoever, and in the end, it's a problem because Ganondorf doesn't end up with any of the abilities he uses in his games.

I also hate clones like Dr. Mario, because even though they play slightly different to their counterpart, they're not a separate persona. It doesn't matter how you put it, Dr. Mario is Mario with Dr clothing, and honestly, not even an original moveset would change that. Also Pichu, 'cause anyone could say that the only reason Pichu ever got there is because it can use Pikachu as a base, if Pikachu wasn't the most popular Pokémon out there and wasn't in the game, Pichu would never have made it either.

Lucina? I have mixed feelings on her.

I think it works, she looks similar to Marth, and the very little I have played of FE: Awakening (should really play some more of that thing sometime) tells me that it makes freaking sense that she moves the same as him. Not to mention that she's ****ing popular, Chrom and Robin may have been the main characters in Awakening, and that's why pretty much everyone was expecting one of them rather than her, but from what I've recently learned, Lucina is actually more popular and generally liked than either of themm so it really seems like an overall good addition to the roster even beyond her clone status.

Except... I've been reading on comments on FE fans that it doesn't actually make sense once you get past the first few chapters of the game, and that Lucina actually has absolutely nothing to do with Marth beyond the fact that she impersonated him, and deserves her own moveset on her own just as much as Ike does.

So I really don't know what to think of her.

Either way, I'll just say that the only Brawl "clone" that I have any problems with is Ganondorf, and that I don't see characters who are commonly see even as clones as "semi-clones" (meaning Lucas and Wolf)

That will tell quite a bit on my stance on clones, I think.

 

[papagenos]

I'm fine with it so long as the characters make sense to be clones/semi-clones whatever.

for instance ganondorf-captain falcon does not make sense.

however lucina-marth does.

so clones like say impa-sheik, dixie-diddy, pit-dark pit etc... are fine imo and give us a bigger roster full of more fan favorite characters with little work for the developers and thats cool with me.

i've never been against clones so long as they 1. make sense to be clones 2. are EXTRA and we still get the same roster of non-clones we'd have gotten anyway and the hand full of clones we got didn't take away from that they were just added so we have more fan favorite characters playable.

 

[Chandeelure]

I love Lucina and I would love Pichu's return, but characters like Dark Pit, Dr. Mario or Young Link? Ugh, no thanks.

 

[RCyclone]

I'm okay with it, but it depends on who it is.

I found out in melee that I liked and played much better with falco's slower play style, then with fox's faster play style even though Falco was a clone of fox. I find that is a okay type of clone, since they play much differently then each other stat wise, That is also the same for Link and Young Link / Toon Link.

However I don't like bad clones, such as Ganondorf having a cloned Captain Falcon move set, but worse overall, as much I like Ganondorf as a great villian character, Him being a clone was very disappointing to say the least.

I liked that they semi-cloned Falco and Wolf, it made sense for me anyway in brawl, but they only changed Ganondorf's Side b move, although I did like that move in brawl.

I can understand that it works well with some characters, but you shouldn't try to force it to work for all of them, In my opinion.

 

[bryanoid]

Louie? If anything Alph, the main character of the newest Pikmin game, would be added as an Olimar clone. In fact, because of Lucina, i'm gonna be including him in all my rosters from now on.

 

[Sabrewulf238]

Depends on the clone.

I think it makes sense for Lucina because she was imitating Marth in awakening. It would almost have been wasteful of them not to take advantage of that if you think about it. A popular character gets repped at little development cost AND it's a female character who isn't a princess or a queen. It's win win.

 

[Cpt.]

I'd much MUCH rather see clones as character costumes, especially since characters have multiple movesets now, but I'm ok with there being Lucina/Falco type semi-clones. Sure it's lazy, but hey the more characters the merrier IMO.

 

[Shotguner159]

AND it's a female character who isn't a princess

Lucina is a princess though.

I like clones. More characters is better than less, for me anyway.

 

[the smash nerd]

Not a huge fan, I find it lazy. Look At The Melee clones -- -'s --God afoul -
3 clones in SSBB +- -'s

 

[QuickRat]

Not a huge fan, I find it lazy. Look At The Melee clones -- -'s --God afoul
2 clones in SSBB - -'s

Why do everybody think Wolf is a clone?

 

[the smash nerd]

Why do everybody think Wolf is a clone?

His Special moves oh and his Final Smash

 

[Sabrewulf238]

Lucina is a princess though.

I like clones. More characters is better than less, for me anyway.

Really? I thought she was a lord? (Now that I think about it Chrom is a prince so.....)

Well ok let me reword it. She's not in a dress.

 

[SvartWolf]

His Special moves oh and his Final Smash

only the final smash really, and thats probably due to lack of time since it didn't make much sense, but as lots of people play withouth items, isn't really that bad.

as for its specials, all of them was extremely different visually and properties wise to either falco or fox. yeah they have a similiar motive, as much as every FE characters seems to have a down counter (in fact robin seems to have a magical down counter... marth clone? hardly)

I really think that in brawl Luigi, Wolf and Ike shouldn't be even considered luigified clones. while Luigi was originally a clone, trough melee and brawl, they changed Luigi AND Mario so much that they aren't even visually that close. they share some motives, yeah, but mostly to keep some connections between brothers.

the term clone should be used when the character looks exactly the same animation wise and gameplay wise, except some differences and properties that can give them a different flavor. (in melee ganondorf have one original move, but I think hardly is enough)

the term luigified clone should be used when a character have obviously a common template with other character but is different both visually and property wise in more than one way. best example would be falco/fox they sill share most of the animations, but falco have a good numbers of stuff thats is critically different to fox in both animation and properties.

If two characters share some similarities due to certain playstyles connections but look and feel totally different, shouldn't be considered a clone. (examples: Ike/Marth, or Fox/Wolf)

Hope this made some sense ._.

 

[QuickRat]

His Special moves oh and his Final Smash

That's probably the 10% in common.

 

[Impmacaque]

I find the term "clone" to be a fairly stupid one, to be honest.

Since when has anyone with even a fundamental grasp of Smash mechanics considered Luigi and Mario "too similar" when it comes to mechanics and abilities? How about Falcon and Ganon? Fox and Falco? Link and Toon/Young Link? Lucas and Ness? Only the most casual of newcomers to the Smash franchise would take the "clone" label as a literal one.

That said, Sakurai has shown us game after game that his "clone" characters will always significantly differ from each other mechanically and in practice. I'd say this is actually the one design niche Sakurai deserves our confidence on. I have never felt that any "clone" character in any smash game was a "wasted slot". We have absolutely no reason to believe that future "clone" characters will be any less unique from their counterparts than they've been in the past.

All things considered, I'm a fan of clone characters because they take very little development time comparatively, yet give us a widely expanded roster to play with. The "clone" characters have historically differed to such a degree that they fill entirely different game-play niches and have their own favorable/unfavorable match-ups/stages (which, in turn, creates a richer and deeper metagame). Someone once claimed Sakurai was able to create all the "clone" characters in Melee with less effort than it would've taken to create one new "original" newcomer. Assuming that's true (I have no source), clones take up very little development time and are a "bonus" we should be happy to receive.

EDIT: Also, as a decade long Marth main, I'm ecstatic that Lucina might be able to pick up that melee mojo that Marth seems to have lost going into SSB4. So maybe I'm biased. Oh well.

 

[the smash nerd]

That's probably the 10% in common.

Um. Yes.

 

[Toon612Link]

I don't think it should effect us... It just takes up space on screen. Its not stoping stupid requests like ridley to get in.

 

[QuickRat]

Um. Yes.

So they are not clones. In fact, Wolf specials are based on Fox's, but I can't say they are the same attacks. Running attack, smashes, tilt attacks and aerial attacks are pretty different from Fox McCloud's.

I don't think it should effect us... It just takes up space on screen. Its not stoping stupid requests like ridley to get in.

If Ridley is stupid, what is a sweetspot-less Marth?

 

[Impmacaque]

If Ridley is stupid, what is a sweetspot-less Marth?

Until someone has actually sat down with Lucina and played her extensively, you have absolutely no basis for claiming that she is a "sweetspot-less Marth". Nobody here actually knows how similar she will be to Marth in terms of overall mechanics, combo-potential, movement options, etcetera.

How about I just call Roy a "Marth with a middle of the sword sweet spot"? Or I could just say Luigi is a "Slippery Mario". Surely you see how these assessments are equally as nonsensical as the one you just proposed.

 

[fe_wander]

Just joined this forum to give my 2 cents:
In Lucina's case, she was the character I wanted most, so obviously I'm alright with her, clone or not.
Ignoring that, though: while clones obviously aren't preferable to new characters, I don't think they replace characters either. The theory that there's a set # of roster spots, and clones take them up, is flawed in my opinion.

I also like the opportunity to try movesets with different character styles. In Melee, for example, I was okay (casually-speaking) with Fox, but pretty deadly with Falco. The slight differences can actually be pretty significant when put into the game. As long as there are SOME differences-- at least to Melee-levels of "cloning"-- I'm okay with them.

 

[QuickRat]

Until someone has actually sat down with Lucina and played her extensively, you have absolutely no basis for claiming that she is a "sweetspot-less Marth". Nobody here actually knows how similar she will be to Marth in terms of overall mechanics, combo-potential, movement options, etcetera.

How about I just call Roy a "Marth with a middle of the sword sweet spot"? Or I could just say Luigi is a "Slippery Mario". Surely you see how these assessments are equally as nonsensical as the one you just proposed.

Man, slow down It was just a silly answer to a comment I didn't like.

 

[Nstinct]

If Sakurai was like, "Alright guys we don't have enough time to make a unique character, lets make us some clonies!" then I'd be all for it. For me, "The more the merrier if it doesn't cost us unique characters." albeit even clones take time to make thus seeming like they cost us a unique one, but if they were out or very low on time I wouldn't quick clones.

Although everyone would agree that anyone would rather have two or three clones in place of a terrible low tier unique fighter or some character they just hate in general.