A word on predictability...

[Jooce Bocks]

Wow, this thread really expanded in the time I was gone today. So much stuff was said that I am not even going to begin quoting anything....but for the most part, I mostly agree with Aprili. Maybe I haven't spent enough time with Sonic, but as it currently stands I do not see his advantages outweighing his disadvantages. While his dominance in running speed and recovery (therefore above average gimping) are notable, he just seems to have notable disadvantages in almost every other area, whether it be due to lag, power, priority, or whatever. I'm feeling quite mentally lacking right now and cannot think of new content to add for discussion, so for now I will simply leave my opinion at that. I agree with an earlier poster that some of us are going to just have to agree to disagree, as right now competitive play is simply speculation and not yet indicated with extensive results.

I am not even going to try to assume how competitively viable he, or any other character, will be in the future. I feel that too much can (and will) change to be discussing it now.

As a side note, stores around here are always out of them **** Wii LAN Adapters. Just so I can save me a few minutes of research, is there anything else I need to purchase to play Brawl online with my Wii? Do I need to purchase any Wii Points or anything along those lines? I'm probably going to just have to order an adapter online so I just want to purchase everything I need at once.

 

[Aprili]

I just kinda went to options and connected. I have a wireless router right near my Wii, so was easy for me. I'd guess that you could just plug in and play... no need to buy anything else, AFAIK ^^;

EDIT: Shadow Link, you misunderstood the point I was trying to make. Of course he can beat out some characters in every part of gameplay. If a character was the worst in every aspect... he'd be horrible, pretty much unplayable, lol. But if you want...

For his slow attacks, I don't mean start up lag. I don't even mean ending lag. Let's just say you whiff a down smash. That gives me like a second+ to punish you. If I block, an F-air, I have plenty of time to react, or shield grab. IF I side step an F-smash, I'll probably have time to smash you. Ganondorf I cannot argue for, because he (imo) is horrible in this game. Bowser, however, has incredible priority and power on almost all of his attacks. Some even hit twice. He uses that to make up for them being slow. Also, koopa klaw allows him to mix up his approach, being able to grab out of the air and do infinite jumps, etc.

For his aerial game being bad, yes, it is based on his priority. His f-air is pretty good, I'll give you that. His N-air is meh at best, it's really only decent when sweetspotted, it's predictable, and it's weak. I hate his D-air in every way, the momentum shift is just stupid and bad, and it's laggy, it's only for getting down back towards the level imo. The u-air is nowhere near Fox's, in any way, except it looks the same. And the b-air is relatively weak.

For his comboing, yes, characters CAN combo well. Or if you prefer, they can get many consecutive hits. However you look at it, some characters string attacks together better than others, and Sonic is not one of them, his attacks are relatively easy to escape from.

For his campiness, anyone can camp. Even Sonic. In fact, Sonic is pretty decent at it, due to a decent grab range + throw set, combined with his running speed. However, he cant finish them off playing campy at all.

His defensive game in general is not as good, from what I've noticed. I don't have hard set data, but playing him after playing other characters (like Lucario) the difference is pretty noticeable.

Fox in melee was -not- unwieldy. He was fast, yes, but he did not slide like Sonic does. His movements were incredible precise. He may have seemed unwieldy to people who did not play him often, but he was my main, and I can assure you that his movements were much more accurate/precise and agile than Sonic's.

A good Marth will tear you apart. He has a huge range, priority, power, and comboing advantage over Sonic, not to mention defensive prowess and good grabs to one up Sonic on every aspect of gameplay. And he himself is pretty fast, too. A good Olimar will do the same, he can keep Sonic at bay with pikmin toss and can easily score KOs using his very, VERY overpowered smashes.

Sonic has some good gimps due to his running speed and recovery, but that's about it. Other characters (MK, Fox, hell even a good Lucario) can gimp as well, PLUS overpower Sonic. He's disadvantaged all around.

I don't want to sound mean, again, but he simply is bad, just like Mewtwo, Pichu, etc. in melee. You have to work around the disadvantages to get good.

 

[R4ZE]

like i said, if characters can beat you attack to attack, then u have to catch them when they arent attacking. seems pretty simple honestly. sheilds, dodges, just using sonics rediculous speed. sonic NEVER has to take a hit, he can simply get out of the way if he wants.

im just saying, dont expect to play sonic like your marth and win.

sonics defencive game is stupidly good actually. if you wait for sum idiot to attack you, it opens so many options up for sonic. all of his smashes cna now be timed, the spring jump on their head.. unleash an >B right hwne they are in range...


and sonics Dair is a pretty bad move especially if used improperly, it can suicide, and the lag can get you killed. BUT at the same time, it is fast, and has decent priority. if used properly, it can really change the tables around. entirely situational like most of his moves.. i find it is best to use Dair when the enemy is trying to jump up and attack you, because he cant sheild grab in the air.

all of his other airs are good tho. the up air may not be as good as fox's but.... fox doesent have a spring jump either....


edit: *all smashes are supposed to be used when you have a really clean oppening. like for example if you running dash sum1, and they get knocked into the air a bit, you can stop and turnaround into a Fsmash where they come down and usually they are flailing and have no time to do anything, and they also come into your range right when the smash is fully extended,.. well if done right and the damage isnt too high. the down smash is great for dodge/roll battles. it hits so that the oponent would have to dodge 2 times ina row to dodge it, and it hits both sides with decent range. the only draw abck is its startup speed is slow than most. but if u dodge and then do it, your usually good. depends on what the enemy is doing tho.

 

[Aprili]

like i said, if characters can beat you attack to attack, then u have to catch them when they arent attacking. seems pretty simple honestly. sheilds, dodges, just using sonics rediculous speed. sonic NEVER has to take a hit, he can simply get out of the way if he wants.

im just saying, dont expect to play sonic like your marth and win.

sonics defencive game is stupidly good actually. if you wait for sum idiot to attack you, it opens so many options up for sonic. all of his smashes cna now be timed, the spring jump on their head.. unleash an >B right hwne they are in range...

You're assuming that other characters don't have these options. They do. All you're saying is you can win by outplaying, which, of course, is what you have to do as Sonic. It's what you have to do as any character, but is more emphasized in low tier characters, because they have less properties you can take advantage of.

And also, Fox doesn't need a spring jump when he can kill with is u-air off a normal jump.

 

[Lyoncet]

True, but the total distance on an up-b uair is greater than fox's double jump uair, even more so if you throw in a jump or two before the spring.

Of course, it's also more predictable, but a fair or bair at that height will set you up for some nasty edgeguarding.

 

[ShadowLink84]

For his slow attacks, I don't mean start up lag. I don't even mean ending lag. Let's just say you whiff a down smash. That gives me like a second+ to punish you. If I block, an F-air, I have plenty of time to react, or shield grab. IF I side step an F-smash, I'll probably have time to smash you. Ganondorf I cannot argue for, because he (imo) is horrible in this game. Bowser, however, has incredible priority and power on almost all of his attacks. Some even hit twice. He uses that to make up for them being slow. Also, koopa klaw allows him to mix up his approach, being able to grab out of the air and do infinite jumps, etc.

You mean ending lag then.
If you block a Fair it depends. If I use my Fair as soon as I jump the moment I land on the ground I can easily dodge behind you or just run away or jump so that you cannot grab me. Taking advantage of the buffer system and substituting the crouch buffer with a run/jump/attack buffer prevents the likelihood of you grabbing me easilyand punishing.
If you sidestep an Fsmash i deserve to get smashed. That goes for all characters, even then I am not supposed to be using an F-smash so predictably so that youcan just sidestep and dodge.

For his aerial game being bad, yes, it is based on his priority. His f-air is pretty good, I'll give you that. His N-air is meh at best, it's really only decent when sweetspotted, it's predictable, and it's weak. I hate his D-air in every way, the momentum shift is just stupid and bad, and it's laggy, it's only for getting down back towards the level imo. The u-air is nowhere near Fox's, in any way, except it looks the same. And the b-air is relatively weak.

Yeah the Dair can be annoying. However to remove the lag of it just use a spring then Dair at the peak and the lag will be completely gone. I've also used it in the air after getting smashed verticall I drop a spring then Dair immediately. So that my opponent either gets hit by the spring and dodgemaking it more easy for me to get to the ground.
the Bair isn't too weak considering it is a potential killing move but usually its better to go with a Fair or Nair since they come out as fast and stay out longer so to speak.
The U air is mainly a follow up move or an annoyance, its not as strong as Foxes but I find its easier to land than foxes.

For his comboing, yes, characters CAN combo well. Or if you prefer, they can get many consecutive hits. However you look at it, some characters string attacks together better than others, and Sonic is not one of them, his attacks are relatively easy to escape from.

Not too sure on how easy it is to escape from.Many of the times if my opponent escapes a Fair or a Bair I find that it usually was an error in my case. Can you provide an example please?

For his campiness, anyone can camp. Even Sonic. In fact, Sonic is pretty decent at it, due to a decent grab range + throw set, combined with his running speed. However, he cant finish them off playing campy at all.

I don't tihnk anyone can camp, or rather camp well. Yes SOnic does have an advantage with his speed and throws but as you said he isn't going to get kills through that method. However Sonic isn't really meant to be campy to begin with which is why i don't find it too big of an issue.

His defensive game in general is not as good, from what I've noticed. I don't have hard set data, but playing him after playing other characters (like Lucario) the difference is pretty noticeable.

Yep defensive wise he just cannot do things. Sonic is the type that you have to overwhelm your opponent through your speed. You really cannot play defensively and if you try you usually get punished for it.

Fox in melee was -not- unwieldy. He was fast, yes, but he did not slide like Sonic does. His movements were incredible precise. He may have seemed unwieldy to people who did not play him often, but he was my main, and I can assure you that his movements were much more accurate/precise and agile than Sonic's.

That can be said in this case. if you do not have good experience with the character it can be an issue. I don't find Sonic's speed a difficulty at all.His sliding isn't an issue since I can stop on a dime when I wish and I can use his sliding to land a U smash on an opponent. Something that Link and many other characters aren't capable of doing. This sounds moreof an experience issue because while I found fox unwieldy in melee you did not and yet Fox is considered a character with a very high learning curve.

A good Marth will tear you apart. He has a huge range, priority, power, and comboing advantage over Sonic, not to mention defensive prowess and good grabs to one up Sonic on every aspect of gameplay. And he himself is pretty fast, too. A good Olimar will do the same, he can keep Sonic at bay with pikmin toss and can easily score KOs using his very, VERY overpowered smashes.

huge range? Marth's range is close to that of Link's since they took that way. as for priority and power yes Marth definitely beats him as he does in comboing. But Marth also has issues with his recovery and it is harder to land an attack with his tipper this time around.
I find its mainly the priority issue again because range doesn't prove to be a great problem for sonic due to his incredible speed.
I don't find power to much of an issue either mainly because sonic's gimping ability is one of the best out there and he has more options than other characters do when it comes to edge guarding.

I think thats one of the main things that hold him back because while he has speed, he doesn't the priority to really take advantage r offset his lack of power.

Eh Olimar is just ****. To be honest the only conceivable way I can see Sonic getting past olimar's defensive play is if he was overly aggressive, something that he really cannot accomplish because of his lack of kill movesand priority.

Sonic has some good gimps due to his running speed and recovery, but that's about it. Other characters (MK, Fox, hell even a good Lucario) can gimp as well, PLUS overpower Sonic. He's disadvantaged all around.

I don't find Fox to be a really good gimper. I find it more effective to try to KO your opponent rather than ruin their recovery.
Asfor MK he suffers from a similar issue as sonic,lackof killmoves but he has the priority in his moves to make up for it, something that Sonic lacks.
I don't think that Sonic is as disadvantaged as it seems since he gimps better than most characters and can take advantage of openings better than other characters.

I don't want to sound mean, again, but he simply is bad, just like Mewtwo, Pichu, etc. in melee. You have to work around the disadvantages to get good.

I find its a bit of an exaggeration since Sonic is better than both Mewtwo and pichu.
yes you do have to work around your disadvantages,
lack of ko power and priority, mainly priority but I also find that if we compare his match ups overall he does too well against characters that are low tier.

 

[da K.I.D.]

whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa.... sonic is nowhere near as bad as pichu or mewtwo. if you believe that ill beat everyone of your chars with him. that was below the line. gimme your wifi code and ill beat that crown wearing hoe like she stole somethin. other than that there is much less divisions in the tiers so he'll always have a chance. even against luigi and kirby

 

[FrostByte]

Let me just add a few things, without specifically quoting anyone.

Even though Sonic deosn't have much of an aerial game, he can't be combo'd easily either. The spring can allow you to escape combos and get that potential 4% and a bit of knockback. Might be able to follow up with a dair in the right conditions or any other aerial to gain more distance.This could be used as part of a camping strategy for those who say he can't camp.

To anyone who isn't wielding a sword, the dair has pretty priority and speed, It's only downside is it's predictability. It's cooldown is actually almost the same as the fairs. The bair also has more range that it seems to have and can be used to camp. Fastfalling SH bairs make it hard for anything without a sword or plant or good projectile to approach (lol, like 3 characters). Uair is a pretty poor move, good for ending combos and pursuing for gimp kills off the top. Downside is the predictability.

His Spindashes are very good for pressuring opponents, most will shield when they see it. If you can hold it for a while, you should be able to eat their shield with the spindash to homing in about 2 turns. it's actually good for camping and you can mix up the second part with an aerial, homing or spring to get away just for the sake of being annoying.

Just as a side note, Sonic's jabs can take care of most projectiles.

There was something else I wanted to add, but I forgot about it.

 

[Aprili]

This game is more unbalanced than Melee... Sonic himself may seem like he's pretty good, but when people start playing Snake, Pit, and Toon Link religiously at tournaments, it'll all make sense.

He himself is not bad, but the game is too defensive for that style of play. Sure, he might be able to beat a bunch of characters, making him not as bad as Pichu or Mewtwo (which, by the way, I didn't say he was; any character can be compared to any character. But you will have to play much better with him to win, just like with Mewtwo or Pichu).

If people were less campy/defensive, it'd be fine. But if you went up against, say, a Pit, they can beat you in every way. Toon Link and Snake are the same. They have priority, power, and projectiles, add to that disjointed hitboxes and way too much range and Sonic is no match. Peach is no match, either. Most of the cast won't be able to keep up, and Sonic is a part of them. If you can outplay, sure, you can win... but that's how it is. In Melee, with like, Marth, I didn't even have to try against most opponents. They could be smarter and predict me better than I can predict them, but I could win because Marth was GOOD. Sonic does not have that advantage. Characters like Pit do.

 

[R4ZE]

You're assuming that other characters don't have these options. They do. All you're saying is you can win by outplaying, which, of course, is what you have to do as Sonic. It's what you have to do as any character, but is more emphasized in low tier characters, because they have less properties you can take advantage of.

And also, Fox doesn't need a spring jump when he can kill with is u-air off a normal jump.

I see what you mean, but where sonic lacks.. he makes up for in speed. Did you ever notice that its extremely hard to grab sonic?

a defencive sonic is nearly impossible to hit. The only time sonic is vulnerable is when he misses an attack or if you go thru his attacks with priority.

So with that said, it is actually very easy to wait for opponents to have delay and smack them when they have zero chance to retaliate. I think this is a big advantage that sonic has, and that is why he has so many disadvantages in other areas.








I honestly havent had any problem learning the errors of my ways and destroying characters that i have previously been unable to even come near killing.

like last week i couldnt touch a meta-knight, or a toon link.


but over the course of this week i have developed new offencive strategies that allow me to work around their priority and power house attacks.

I do honestly beleive that meta-knight and toon link are two of sonic's tuffest opponents, but with the right approach stratagies its very possible to beat both of them.

 

[da K.I.D.]

its weird, most of the ppl that are said to be really good i wreck easily. marth, pikmen, pit, snake, i run righ through them, the ones i have issues with are TL and wolf. everyone else i can smack on

 

[R4ZE]

metaknight, G&W, and TL are my worst fights.