A word on predictability...

[Aprili]

Hi, SWF! Before I start this post, I would like to ask that you take everything I say lightly. It is not law, of course. However, I also request that you don't ignore my post, or flame me, due to the fact that I have a low post count. With that being said...

I've been noticing some things about Sonic. Mainly, we're all really, really bad with him. Another thing I've noticed, just to get this out of the way, is that he sucks. Like it or not, Sonic is disadvantaged in just about every way possible. It will require some miraculous tech to come out to make Sonic a high tier fighter. But for now, we're dealing with a slow (attack speed, not movement speed), low priority, weak character who relies on combos to score kills, yet can't even combo as well as some other characters (ever played a good Toon Link?). How, then, can you make him better?

Well, my first suggestion is, if Smash is the only fighter you've ever played, play some other ones. There are some relatively easy to pick up ones out there (such as Soul Calibur) that will prove to you that one thing can trump the speed, power, priority, combos, anything of any character.

What is this thing? That's right, predictability.

What makes this so important? Well, let's say, I see you every day before you go to school or work, and I punch you in the face. Eventually, you will learn to block me from punching you in the face, because, well, it hurts. Let's say, the first day you decide to stop me from punching you in the face, I kick you in the shin. Well, now your block isn't very effective. Get the point?

In a fighting game, this is even more important. While not as accented in Smash, it is still there. I could hit you 10 times in a row with the homing attack, if I can trick you every time into thinking that I won't do it (not that I recommend you homing attack 10 times in a row, of course). Therefore, you must always pick the option that they don't expect. A hit with your worst move is better than a miss with your best.

An important aspect of Smash is the Rock, Paper, Scissors effect. The moveset of any character involves attacks, grabs, and shields/dodges. Attacking beats out grabbing, grabbing beats out shielding, and shielding beats out attacking. Therefore, you must read your opponent to know which of the three they will do, and which way you will counter. As sonic, 99% of the time you cannot counter an attack with an attack, so you must shield, then grab if possible. This will often create very campy Sonics, but Brawl leans towards defensive players. If you want to go all out offense, play Fox in Melee, as Sonic is not for you.

In the most important aspect of your game shouldn't be your offense or defense. It shouldn't be how you combo or KO. It shouldn't even be your predictability. It should be how well you can predict your opponent. Sonic is fast, and you must be fast with him, in your sensing, processing, and reacting of every situation in a match. Read your opponent better than he reads you, and you win.

Also, let me say this now, I am not a Sonic main. In fact, my Sonic sucks, badly. I play Peach, Yoshi, and Fox mostly. However, I have been a Sonic fan since the Genesis days, and I have been reading the boards and watching many videos of him, so I guarantee that my comments are not without some sort of backing behind them. In fact, much of what I said is common sense that you don't actively think about, and it applies to every character, just not as intensely as it does with Sonic.


As a final note, play Pokemon competitively. If you can predict in that, you can predict in Brawl. Good luck, and if you want to play me, IM me at aya171 (AIM) or aprili@live.com (MSN). Hope this helps! ^^;

 

[BadGuy]

We(at least I am) are well aware of sonic's weaknesses. Being unpredictable with sonic is something all sonic mains are gonna have to learn to do. But thank you for your concern and posting your thoughts on sonic.

 

[Jooce Bocks]

In the most important aspect of your game shouldn't be your offense or defense. It shouldn't be how you combo or KO. It shouldn't even be your predictability. It should be how well you can predict your opponent. Sonic is fast, and you must be fast with him, in your sensing, processing, and reacting of every situation in a match. Read your opponent better than he reads you, and you win.

While I agree with most of what was stated, from Sonic having more disadvantages than advantages to the importance of predictability, some things in this specific quote irked me. While I agree predicting the opponent is important, I feel it is equally important to your offense and own predictability. In fact, as far as Sonic is concerned, I feel the player's own predictability is the most important aspect, as predictable playing with Sonic is essentially a guaranteed loss. A predictable Sonic has nothing that will save him, especially since running speed (his one known true dominance) isn't going to help this problem.

I also feel that how you combo or KO with Sonic is also just as important. Sonic has to implement some defense, but how well you keep up the pressure is important. If you allow the opponent to control spacing or pace then you are in a pretty deep disadvantage already, since they likely already have the advantage in range, priority, and KO potential. Since Sonic has very low KO capability you must be able to follow up your attacks, no matter how far you have to leave the safety of the stage. I feel that off stage is where Sonic really shines, as he has a pretty vast amount of options when it comes to recovery and fighting in negative space.

 

[TheMagicalKuja]

I have that sticky topic for a reason you know.

At least you recognize that poor priority is a bigger problem than no kill moves.

 

[Catfish_Mike]

Most of us know this already. The people who need to read it probably don't even visit these forums, but thank you very much for your contribution.

 

[Aprili]

While I agree with most of what was stated, from Sonic having more disadvantages than advantages to the importance of predictability, some things in this specific quote irked me. While I agree predicting the opponent is important, I feel it is equally important to your offense and own predictability. In fact, as far as Sonic is concerned, I feel the player's own predictability is the most important aspect, as predictable playing with Sonic is essentially a guaranteed loss. A predictable Sonic has nothing that will save him, especially since running speed (his one known true dominance) isn't going to help this problem.

I also feel that how you combo or KO with Sonic is also just as important. Sonic has to implement some defense, but how well you keep up the pressure is important. If you allow the opponent to control spacing or pace then you are in a pretty deep disadvantage already, since they likely already have the advantage in range, priority, and KO potential. Since Sonic has very low KO capability you must be able to follow up your attacks, no matter how far you have to leave the safety of the stage. I feel that off stage is where Sonic really shines, as he has a pretty vast amount of options when it comes to recovery and fighting in negative space.

I'm sorry, the way I worded that comment was kinda weird (it was 3 AM ^^ and the point I was trying to get across wasn't that those aspects of gameplay are unimportant, but that in the end, predicting your opponent is more important. I say this because, if you can predict your opponent well, and you react fast enough, there is your unpredictability. And if you always hit with what they don't prepare for, there is your combos. Then, when they're off the map and their options are so limited (for most characters) is where you can bring in the gimps. However, the most important thing is to know what they will expect. You can only be unpredictable if they never predict you, and sometimes what is completely unpredictable for one person is exactly what the next expects.

And Kuja, your guide is wonderful and I've read the whole thing twice, but since its posting many people still seem to have the basic "why won't my spindash work" problem, so after reading a large amount of the boards I was trying to help people bring Sonic to a higher level of competitive play, and the main way I see of doing this is through reactions. As Fox in melee, against some opponents you can go at it without even thinking, just all out offense and throwing in every tech you can think of. Brawl is much more limited in terms of offensive capabilities, and Sonic as a character is very limited, so I believe that you cannot just be good at Sonic and still win, if that makes sense.

Experience with the character is important, but experience with competitive play is more important ^^

EDIT: I just thought of another comment for you, Jooce Bocks. About your comment on comboing/KOing, I never said to let down the pressure in favor of other things. In fact, I meant to imply just the opposite, to keep up pressure every time they aren't ready for it. I don't mean to constantly sit in your shield. I meant to camp when they are being aggressive, and then react, punish, combo, and KO when they aren't ready for it, be it from lag or their mind's processing capabilities. Again, sorry for the odd wording. ^^

 

[Rhyfelwyr]

This is an extermely well thought out post that is both true and relevent. The application of mindgames is important to everyone, but Sonic has to depend on them. His fast speed and similar moves can work together to keep your opponent guessing.

Don't say this isn't needed, or that everyone already knows this. The new Sonic players on wifi are saying otherwise.

 

[da K.I.D.]

a few opinions....

1. welcome to the sonic forums, your opinion (albeit mostly known already) is appreciated and respected.

2. this thread kind of goes against everything that Izzy thinks about sonic fans being mindless flaming fanboys. since everyone is being very nice and respectful here.

3. do you have yahoo im. cause i would really like to play a good girl in this game as well as hearing your opinions on other things

 

[da K.I.D.]

also... i find it really amusing that someone who plays yoshi and pokemon trainer can notice things about sonic that a lot of ppl cant even see while they play him. that being said, this is a really good topic and im glad to see it


sry for the double post

 

[Spin Dashie]

Aprili, I agree with everything you've said about Sonic, but understand that no matter how weak Sonic's gameplay may seem mains will need to work through it. And thats where your unpredictability and combos come into play.

Check out my post here http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=152915
It may not be half as good as the actual guides Sonic mains here have posted, but its my common sense on using Sonic at the time. I read this again and i've found a few things I'd like to change such as his side-b approach. We learn from our mistakes, the same way as you've learned to become unpredictable in your style.

So the point is, yes Sonic has little kill moves, and its hard to combo, but I believe Sonic, just like any other character has the potential to be a great character. And while that mini guide I posted may have some flaws I and everyone else may see now, we still learn to be better.

 

[Aprili]

Thanks for the compliments, Rhyfelwyr and da K.I.D. I just feel that a lot of people were expecting Sonic to be like Sheik or Fox, someone who is good and fast and can keep the opponent on the defensive throughout a whole game, and a lot of those people haven't let go of that idea.

Spin Dashie, after watching people like Fumi and Taj, I know any character can be brought to a high level

Also, I don't have Yahoo IM, but I believe MSN and Yahoo can talk to each other. What's your screen name?

 

[Spin Dashie]

I dont have any of those but I do have AIM. LB Stylez is my sn. Im working on buying a router soon to play a few matches with people on these boards.

 

[Umby]

Spin Dash is a OHKO. I don't know what you're talking about.

 

[TheMagicalKuja]

^Lawlwatewhut

In that case Aprili I might need to add notes you said to my guide as well.

 

[Aprili]

It'd be an honor to be quoted in your guide. I'm just here to help Sonic's game evolve, so if you think anything will be of use in the sticky where more people will read it, please put it in there

 

[Soloman]

yah!!! more constructive criticism. (not bein sarcastic either)

As it currently stands alot of us on sonic boards have been hard at work, tryin to crack Sonic. With the implementation of stutter step and 2x stutter step this helps out alot in spot dodge to fsmash counters if u get slowed down at all. Also with the spinshot now known, it helps with unpredictablity and bein able to catch u're foe off guard with alotta speed, be it from recovering or just to close the gap against range.

Cool thing is, having everyone on the same lvl in practice and knowing all the techs sonic brings to the table allows us to better understand one another when a new tech pops up, that move goes into a lot of testing and we're makin vast improvements to sonics game. aka adding to his arsenal to diversify his game.

 

[Jooce Bocks]

I'm sorry, the way I worded that comment was kinda weird (it was 3 AM ^^ and the point I was trying to get across wasn't that those aspects of gameplay are unimportant, but that in the end, predicting your opponent is more important. I say this because, if you can predict your opponent well, and you react fast enough, there is your unpredictability. And if you always hit with what they don't prepare for, there is your combos. Then, when they're off the map and their options are so limited (for most characters) is where you can bring in the gimps. However, the most important thing is to know what they will expect. You can only be unpredictable if they never predict you, and sometimes what is completely unpredictable for one person is exactly what the next expects.

I knew you didn't assume they were unimportant, I just wanted to get out my opinion that they are equally important and why. Many people may have different views on this and I just wished to share my opinion. I am just one of the people who finds being unpredictable myself to be very slightly more important than predicting my opponent (even though it is very important). While I understand your side, I personally feel that even if I can predict my opponent 100% of the time that it will become less useful if I respond in the same way to each distinct movement.

Even when facing a new player that does a dash attack 100% of the time and I shield grab them 100% of the time, they will eventually (one would hope) change their approach. Since they have never performed a different approach to me yet I cannot safely predict when or how they will learn and approach differently. It is more likely that they will come up with a safe counter if they know how I will respond.

Pretty much, just to sum this up, I personally rate my own predictability above how well I can predict my opponent, since I have to be unpredictable in how I attack the opponent and how I react after predicting their moves. If my opponent and I can predict each other with similar ease (or difficulty), I feel that Sonic has a disadvantage. Self predictability and opponent prediction are, at most, a fine (and subjective) line from one another in importance; if my opponent and I are the same in one category, a distinct advantage in the other side can seal the match.

EDIT: I just thought of another comment for you, Jooce Bocks. About your comment on comboing/KOing, I never said to let down the pressure in favor of other things. In fact, I meant to imply just the opposite, to keep up pressure every time they aren't ready for it. I don't mean to constantly sit in your shield. I meant to camp when they are being aggressive, and then react, punish, combo, and KO when they aren't ready for it, be it from lag or their mind's processing capabilities. Again, sorry for the odd wording. ^^

Again, I could tell from your post that you knew these things had their own importance; I just didn't want a, "I slightly disagree with this specific comment but will not explain why" post. Like I said, I understand your view on everything that was stated in your post, that comment just irked me because I just had a slightly different opinion of it. I also realized I made a slight mistake in my wording (I try to type these quickly) when I stated I feel they are "just as important." I kind of meant to say that, for the most part, those factors are of equal importance to one another for the sake of predictability; I am not good at offense if I attack the same way every time just as I cannot claim to be good at KOing if I rely on the same KO trick every time (I still rate defense as low on our list, as we have no real options outside of dodging, blocking, or rolling).

I personally feel that Sonic's important aspects (in order of greatest to least importance) are: Unpredictability, Predicting Opponent, how you KO, Offense, Defense (he has no real defensive options ).

 

[Aprili]

Alright, that post makes more sense now It's so hard sometimes to read tone online XD

My list of importance of aspects of his gameplay would be quite different o.O; somewhere along the lines of predicting Opponent, predictability, defense, offense, how you KO. But hey, I guess that's how different playstyles come around, right? ^^

 

[da K.I.D.]

my list always has predicting my opponent first because we should all know by now that mindgames will win over technicality almost every time. just ask gimpy. also because if you always know what your opponent will do, and have a basic understanding of your chars. moveset than the rest will just fall into place. thats why i play dedede. because mindgaming ppl into a ROCKET PROPELED HAMMER is the most satisfying thing that you can do

btw... i think that my yahoo account name is kidgoggles but i might have to get back to you on that. i dont use it much

 

[Jooce Bocks]

Alright, that post makes more sense now It's so hard sometimes to read tone online XD

My list of importance of aspects of his gameplay would be quite different o.O; somewhere along the lines of predicting Opponent, predictability, defense, offense, how you KO. But hey, I guess that's how different playstyles come around, right? ^^

Yeah, tone can be quite the problem child on the internet. I'm glad I was able to straighten myself out a little as I tend to be in a hurry when I post and don't double check my context well . I'll try and be more careful in the future .

It is funny how our lists are practically reversed. I guess I just focus more (I'll have to start checking myself if perhaps too much) on my offense rather than my defense .

 

[Jooce Bocks]

my list always has predicting my opponent first because we should all know by now that mindgames will win over technicality almost every time. just ask gimpy. also because if you always know what your opponent will do, and have a basic understanding of your chars. moveset than the rest will just fall into place. thats why i play dedede. because mindgaming ppl into a ROCKET PROPELED HAMMER is the most satisfying thing that you can do

I agree that mindgames are more important than technical skill, but a good technical game gives you more options when applying them.

Your other examples are kind of the reason I put reading the opponent and being unpredictable on a fine and subjective line; while knowing what you're opponent is going to do will give you an advantage, this advantage begins to crumble if they know what you're going to do. If I can read you as well as you can read me, then it's all up to which one of us is able to adapt our gameplay to become less predictable. Likewise, if we're equally unpredictable, it will become dependent on who can learn and predict their opponent quicker throughout the match. If we're completely equal in both of these areas, then it is up to technical skill (and, although I hate to say it, possibly character selection).

The ROCKET PROPELLED HAMMER (I agree that title is always deserving of caps) is a good example. You could land the hit by knowing how I will react (predicting the opponent), but you could also hit me if you can throw it into a situation where it is least expected (being unpredictable).

Again, this is all my opinion and not in any way being implemented as absolute truth; I just like discussion .

 

[Aprili]

Yeah, tone can be quite the problem child on the internet. I'm glad I was able to straighten myself out a little as I tend to be in a hurry when I post and don't double check my context well . I'll try and be more careful in the future .

It is funny how our lists are practically reversed. I guess I just focus more (I'll have to start checking myself if perhaps too much) on my offense rather than my defense .

I know how you feel with putting offense first ^^; Back in melee, I mained Fox, so offense was my only priority. In that, I could rely on keeping the opponent on their toes the whole time, as Fox was fast, strong, and had high priority. The thing is, Fox was good, and in an offensive game. Sonic is bad, and in a very, VERY defensive game. That's why I switched my style over.

Also, due to the slow paced nature of the game, I find it much easier to predict my opponent and to react quickly. This is the main reason I win my games. However, I have noticed that I don't shield as much as I suggest others do... I mostly try and back away quickly, then run in, or spot dodge and punish with a grab or tilt (rarely a smash, only on a move with lots of ending lag). I guess this is instinct from wavedashing in melee.

Jooce Bocks, wanna play online sometime? XD I've had a lack in good Brawl players, and you seem to know what you're doing. Would be some good games... even though I'm horrible against Sonics. ^^;

/sigh, I still wish this game had wavedashing and L-canceling XD

 

[Jooce Bocks]

I know how you feel with putting offense first ^^; Back in melee, I mained Fox, so offense was my only priority. In that, I could rely on keeping the opponent on their toes the whole time, as Fox was fast, strong, and had high priority. The thing is, Fox was good, and in an offensive game. Sonic is bad, and in a very, VERY defensive game. That's why I switched my style over.

Yeah, I fiddled with Fox from time to time to keep my timing with him down, but I mained Captain Falcon, making offense (knee combos ftw ) my top priority. I know what you're saying about this being a very defensive game, but my view on it is that Sonic's lack of priority already puts him at a disadvantage in either offense or defense. A high priority, in my opinion, makes it easier to play it safe when either attacking or retaliating; I guess it's just about which side of the scale you begin to weigh out first. I likely need to begin work on my defensive side, as I don't get really any chances to play against decent players, so I probably do have too much Melee in me .

Also, due to the slow paced nature of the game, I find it much easier to predict my opponent and to react quickly. This is the main reason I win my games. However, I have noticed that I don't shield as much as I suggest others do... I mostly try and back away quickly, then run in, or spot dodge and punish with a grab or tilt (rarely a smash, only on a move with lots of ending lag). I guess this is instinct from wavedashing in melee.

I agree with the help of the slow pace, that's mainly why I am trying to become as unpredictable as possible. I find it important to do so in a game where you're more easily predicted, especially with a character who is easily punished for going either route. Again, I could be going about it wrong and just be letting my Melee side take over .

Jooce Bocks, wanna play online sometime? XD I've had a lack in good Brawl players, and you seem to know what you're doing. Would be some good games... even though I'm horrible against Sonics. ^^;

/sigh, I still wish this game had wavedashing and L-canceling XD

I would love to play online sometime. I have always had the problem of never having good players to play with (for both Brawl and Melee). I'm not trying to say my friends are bad at the game, it's just that they're what many here would call "casuals," where I try to be a competitive player . This is why I try to sound like I know what I'm doing . Since I don't really get the chance to play in competitive games I can at least come here and learn how the pros play .

I don't have it yet, but I plan to pick up the USB adapter thingy so that I can get online with my Wii today. I've only had my Wii for as long as Brawl has been out, so I haven't taken care of this step yet. I told myself that I wouldn't get it until I was in a safer position in my classes, which I should be close to. My schedule keeps me from playing too much (kept me from even going to round 2 of my local Gamestop tournament ), so I probably know more about playing than what I know how to actually do . I'd love the chance to play against good players online so that I can finally see how I compare and how I can improve. I'll post my information as soon as I can.

 

[R4ZE]

sonic isnt nearly as gimped as everyone makes him out to be.


You just cant run around with sonic acting like he is marth trying to smash attack everyone at every moment. or thinking that if u keep mashing the a button your attacks will hit because your faster.

Sonic isnt a bad character at all, he just has a higher learning curve, mainly because of how unique he is.

 

[Umby]

I stress approach and spacing more than anything else. Right now I can only play scrubs, and even if I know exactly what they're going to do, not knowing how to take advantage of that in getting close to them will screw me over. Furthermore, if I predict where' they're going to be, I need to make sure that when I attack I don't get hit by random smashes thrown out.

 

[R4ZE]

well atleast sonic has the speed and control to really make sure that he doesent get hit by random smashes and things that would knock him out.


one thing i noticed... i find myself seldom using sheild with sonic. which is very odd, because i know the importance of sheilding beleive me. but its almost like... sonic doesent need it so much that i forget he even has it haha...


i should probobly work on that though.

 

[Aprili]

sonic isnt nearly as gimped as everyone makes him out to be.


You just cant run around with sonic acting like he is marth trying to smash attack everyone at every moment. or thinking that if u keep mashing the a button your attacks will hit because your faster.

Sonic isnt a bad character at all, he just has a higher learning curve, mainly because of how unique he is.

While he's not gimped beyond usability, he does have many severe disadvantages. The way to get good with him (gimpyfish has a video on youtube about this) is to accept that he has these disadvantages, and to turn them into minimize them as much as possible.

Sorry for the rushed post, I'll edit and add more later. Here's that video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltqgP-Xgceg

 

[R4ZE]

well realisticly.. sonic has poor priority, and *no killing mooves* lawl.



what els is so bad about him?


he can kill himself easily with down a...


mmm idk i mean everythign else seems pretty good if u ask me... and these things can be played around... like for example. if there was a master sonic player, he would know exactly which moves he could use against other moves, which moves of his have priority.. or atleast, he would know which moves he has to avoid, run away from, wait for openings on...

but seriously... which of sonics drawbacks are just so bad that a player cant work around it?

and honestly... the whole lack of killing moves thing is just str8 garbage as far as im concerned... i mean sure.. he doesent have an ike power kill move that he can spam
-sure, his kill moves take skill and practice to execute properly.

but the point is once u learn it all. he is really freakin good. doesent the fact that people actually play sonic very competetively prove this?

 

[da K.I.D.]

well the thing is that playing sonic takes alot more skill and focus than most other chars. i cant play sonic for fun cause than im just like... "OOOOOHHHHHH, SPIN DASH! SPINDASH!" and thats how i realised for myself that sonic has low priority. because since im better than my roommate, he always tries to counterpick me. so somehow wheneven i pick sonic, i always hear a gay little "letz agoooo..." at the beginning of the match. and thats when my boredom begins. now i have no problem camping and waiting for an opening, but when he is being JUST as campy WITH fireballs, AND he knows that if i ever do decide to run in he can n-air. which basically makes him invincible to my moves. this just means i have to use and intentionally miss with all my attacks and bounce all over the stage just to get to an opening while he just stands there and waits for me to get too close is reeeeeeeeally irritating.

Now i totally agree with you, hes not that bad and he is really fun to play with but it takes alot of mental fortitude to play him. but even at my peak (and I really dont know where my play is in relation to izzy and orochi and lucky) its much easier to get things done with others. although he'll be my main for life. but ill get over it. have to do it cause sonic is a beast and we have to show him as such.

and one more thing

Jooce Bocks, wanna play online sometime? XD I've had a lack in good Brawl players, and you seem to know what you're doing. Would be some good games... even though I'm horrible against Sonics. ^^;

/sigh, I still wish this game had wavedashing and L-canceling XD

hey so im chopped liver now? im dont post enought to warrent playing with? fine than, when i go to a tourney and whoop up on lucky, than youll see.

 

[R4ZE]

well the thing is that playing sonic takes alot more skill and focus than most other chars. i cant play sonic for fun cause than im just like... "OOOOOHHHHHH, SPIN DASH! SPINDASH!" and thats how i realised for myself that sonic has low priority. because since im better than my roommate, he always tries to counterpick me. so somehow wheneven i pick sonic, i always hear a gay little "letz agoooo..." at the beginning of the match. and thats when my boredom begins. now i have no problem camping and waiting for an opening, but when he is being JUST as campy WITH fireballs, AND he knows that if i ever do decide to run in he can n-air. which basically makes him invincible to my moves. this just means i have to use and intentionally miss with all my attacks and bounce all over the stage just to get to an opening while he just stands there and waits for me to get too close is reeeeeeeeally irritating.

Now i totally agree with you, hes not that bad and he is really fun to play with but it takes alot of mental fortitude to play him. but even at my peak (and I really dont know where my play is in relation to izzy and orochi and lucky) its much easier to get things done with others. although he'll be my main for life. but ill get over it. have to do it cause sonic is a beast and we have to show him as such.

and one more thing



hey so im chopped liver now? im dont post enought to warrent playing with? fine than, when i go to a tourney and whoop up on lucky, than youll see.

a homing attack wouldnt catch him off gaurd? maybe jumping a SD over and when ur close enuff to hit perfectly doa Dair... i think a Dair would beat a nuetral air.. idk tho..

hey if u give me ur FC ill play you. =D

 

[Aprili]

hey so im chopped liver now? im dont post enought to warrent playing with? fine than, when i go to a tourney and whoop up on lucky, than youll see.

I asked you for your yahoo, and you never responded. Not my fault.

And also, yes, Sonic is a much harder character to play as, when compared to a Mario. If he's being campy, shield his projectiles and dash in for a grab, I guarantee you he can't be campier than a campy Pit, and even though I don't play against Pit as Sonic very often, as Peach, I'm able to approach and get off grabs without even entering the air. Just requires well timed spot dodges, perfect shields, and rolls. Peach can always float over, so she has that advantage, but like I said, Sonic is a difficult and disadvantaged character (moreso than the mega nerfed Peach). It's something you have to deal with playing a low tier

EDIT:

well realisticly.. sonic has poor priority, and *no killing mooves* lawl.

what els is so bad about him?

he can kill himself easily with down a...

mmm idk i mean everythign else seems pretty good if u ask me... and these things can be played around... like for example. if there was a master sonic player, he would know exactly which moves he could use against other moves, which moves of his have priority.. or atleast, he would know which moves he has to avoid, run away from, wait for openings on...

but seriously... which of sonics drawbacks are just so bad that a player cant work around it?

and honestly... the whole lack of killing moves thing is just str8 garbage as far as im concerned... i mean sure.. he doesent have an ike power kill move that he can spam
-sure, his kill moves take skill and practice to execute properly.

but the point is once u learn it all. he is really freakin good. doesent the fact that people actually play sonic very competetively prove this?

He has low priority, he attacks slow, his aerial game isn't top quality, his lack of kill moves is laughable, he can't combo as effectively as characters like Toon Link and Marth, he can't camp like Olimar and Pit, his dodges and shields are worse off than most characters, and he is very unwieldy with his speed. Don't get me wrong, I love Sonic, but he's going to be very, VERY low on the tier list. Every bad character has its "pros," like Taj and Gimpyfish, but he's still a sub par character. This means, as da kid stated, that you have to WAY outplay your opponent to win. Not that this is bad. You probably won't win many national tournaments, but the best Sonics will be well recognized for bringing a bad character to a competitive level. ^^

 

[Lyoncet]

I see your point, but I'd counter that not being able to camp as well as Olimar or combo as well as Toon Link isn't a flaw with Sonic. That's like saying that Melee Marth is flawed because he can't projectile spam like Falco. Sure, these are traits that, out of the cast of 35/36/38/39, you can find someone who can perform better, but that's not saying Sonic can't do it well.

To put it differently, nobody's going to look down at a character for not being able to combo like Toon Link because nobody can combo like Toon Link, and you'd be hard pressed to find a better camper than Olimar. Stupid ******-wielding ******.

Plus, I love Sonic's air game (aside from the dair). I do a little happy dance a la DeDeDe every time somebody decides to take a battle to the sky. Well, unless it's Jigglypuff.

 

[Aprili]

I wasn't trying to say that he can't do these, merely, he has no distinct advantage. Basically, he can be out combo'd by many characters, and out camped by many other characters. And many of these many characters can do both, better. As for Sonic's aerial game, compared to other often played characters (Toon, Zamus, Fox/Falco, Pikachu, Marth, Pit, MK... etc etc) it is quite sub par due to his lack of aerial DI, multi jump, range or priority. This isn't to say that you need all of these to be good in the air (though some characters like MK *DO* have all of them... /sigh @ MK) you do need to have something that you can exploit for your combo's. Sonic has some OK range, nothing spectacular, bad aerial DI, no multi jump, and bad priority and power. The thing that makes it seem so special is no one is used to it. I know for me, I rarely get to play Sonics, so I often don't do too well. Also I use Peach... I haven't tried Fox too often on Sonics, though when I have, it's much easier for me.

Obviously, there will be incredible Sonics. He is just disadvantaged as a character all around. Some people will exploit the few advantages he has (running speed + incredible recovery), but all around, he will still stay in a not-very-tournament-worthy position. I do think this is a good thing, though... with how many fans he have, could you imagine if he was broken? D: we'd never see another character XD

I could see him ruling low tier tourneys, though, a la Luigi in melee.

 

[R4ZE]

all im saying... is that is wrong..


the best sonic will msot definately be able to keep up with pros that master other characters.

a lot of sonics attacks are not slow, but rather some have post attack delay, and if u try to clash sonics attacks with other character's attacks then you will lose in most cases. but the thing is, you can attack during their lag frames, and sonic is definately fast enuff to pull out an attack after the enemy is delaying.

and how is sonics air game bad at all? the one thing sonic is lacking in his air game is a spike.

but think about that. how unfair would sonic be with an ariel spike? see?

other than that. sonic has a nasty Bair which can be compared with the likes of ness. and he also has a Uair that cam be compared to fox's. how is that bad?!

His Fair deals great damage and even has decent knockback, and hit nutral air is fast and a decent spacing move... i mean seriously.... how is that bad??????

oh ya, and his Dair strikes fast and.. has pretty good priority as well.



we could argue all day anyway, maybe we should just agree to disagree?

I mean we can keep this civil anyway. If you think sonic is a really bad character, then i can respect that opinion. And im not saying im "above" that or anything. But I'm just saying, i thought that sonic was gimp when i first played him too.

 

[Umby]

I can't recall when his Uair was as strong as Fox's or his Bair as strong as Ness's.

 

[Aprili]

his U-air is like Fox/Falco's but worse. His F-air is like Fox/Falco's but worse. His B-air is like Fox/Falco's but worse. And his D-air is like... Fox/Falco's but worse (imo. Some people like the momentum shift, I think it's stupid. Drill kick with a spike > momentum cancel/shift for me)

Not to be mean, but you really do need to accept the weaknesses I've already accepting my character's weaknesses. I mean, I'm maining Peach; if she's better than Sonic, it's not by much. She's slow, she's weak, she can't rack up damage quickly, she's easy to approach, and her specials are pretty much useless. She gets destroyed by any sword users, and characters like the spacies and Pikachu. I'm not saying that he's horribly useless by any means... he's not Pichu. He's just not good. All characters have disadvantages, he just has a lot. Maybe if his moves had hit stun like the moves in melee, he'd be better, but they don't... it's just something to deal with.

Sorry if I came off as rude. But I really believe that accepting a character's flaws is a huge step towards becoming a good player. ^^

 

[Lyoncet]

his U-air is like Fox/Falco's but worse. His F-air is like Fox/Falco's but worse. His B-air is like Fox/Falco's but worse. And his D-air is like... Fox/Falco's but worse (imo. Some people like the momentum shift, I think it's stupid. Drill kick with a spike > momentum cancel/shift for me)

Actually, as a Falco second, I can say that I vastly prefer Sonic's fair and bair to Falco's, with Sonic's nair being slightly more to my liking. Of course, Falco's spike is waaaaay better than Sonic's dair, and his uair is better, but not by a whole lot IMO.

It's funny you brought up that comparison actually, because every time I pick up Falco, I start doing f/b/nairs and think to myself, "wow, I need to remember who I'm playing." Then I just spike the rest of the match.

 

[ShadowLink84]

a homing attack wouldnt catch him off gaurd? maybe jumping a SD over and when ur close enuff to hit perfectly doa Dair... i think a Dair would beat a nuetral air.. idk tho..

hey if u give me ur FC ill play you. =D

A Fair would work well . If you time it right the initial hit will clash with the Nair but will not stop the Fair in its entirety. I found tha tout facing Luigi who naired me at hte same time i faired and I bypassed the initial hit of the Nair and struck him with the other Fair hits.

He has low priority, he attacks slow,

Then what is Bowser and Ganandor'f and Links and Falcos? Glacial?

The slowest attack that ISonic has would have to be his Fsmash.
Other than his Fair and Dair whose lag can be canceled the Fsmash has a start up time greater than mario's and cooling time equal to Mario's.
I am curious as to how his attack are slow.
Examples please?

aerial game isn't top quality,

That's a priority issue. The only thing that Sonic misses from his air ability is the power to spike.
Fair? better than Foxes since it has better knock back, basically holds your enemy for the duration of the hits, and is excellent for gimping recovery.
Bair? better than Wolf's whose Bair has a smaller hitbox the outside of which can be a little hit with not too much knock back.
Dair? Could be better .

Uair? Is almost as good as Foxes.

The only reason people can say his aerial game is poor is due to priority issues which make Sonic a poor candidate for fighting aerial characters such as Jigglypuff and Kirby. Then again you aren't supposed to verpower your enemy.

his lack of kill moves is laughable

Mm possibly because he is meant to chase not kill his opponent. If you wish for someone who can kill then you would be looking at Ike and other characters who are slow yet powerful.

he can't combo as effectively as characters like Toon Link and Marth,

Hardly anyone in this game can combo well including Toon Link and Marth. Most combos are only 2-3 attacks and no more afterwards due to the decreased hitstun and better DI.
Sonic's combos usually do around 10-23% and are based around exploiting holes in defense as well as taking advantage of predictable behavior such as camping.

he can't camp like Olimar and Pit,

He is not meant ot camp. End story.

his dodges and shields are worse off than most characters,

I don't know Sonic's dodges seem faste rthan most characters out there since they are short and not as predictable as characters such as metaknight. Even then you really shouldn't be dodging and should be taking advantag eof the new powershield system. Or even better, presusre your enemy and chase them.

and he is very unwieldy with his speed.

Fox in melee, end story.

Don't get me wrong, I love Sonic, but he's going to be very, VERY low on the tier list. Every bad character has its "pros," like Taj and Gimpyfish, but he's still a sub par character. This means, as da kid stated, that you have to WAY outplay your opponent to win. Not that this is bad. You probably won't win many national tournaments, but the best Sonics will be well recognized for bringing a bad character to a competitive level. ^^

I highly doubt it. Considering that he does very well against many characters that are considered middle tier and can really hutr characters such as marth and Olimar with his gimping ability I highly doubt he is going to be low on the tier list.

 

[Aprili]

Actually, as a Falco second, I can say that I vastly prefer Sonic's fair and bair to Falco's, with Sonic's nair being slightly more to my liking. Of course, Falco's spike is waaaaay better than Sonic's dair, and his uair is better, but not by a whole lot IMO.

It's funny you brought up that comparison actually, because every time I pick up Falco, I start doing f/b/nairs and think to myself, "wow, I need to remember who I'm playing." Then I just spike the rest of the match.

Meh, to each his/her own, I guess Because I play Fox sometimes, Sonic's N- and B-airs have always felt kinda stupid to me. Fox's B-air works the same but with higher priority/power, and I just all around don't like Sonic's N-air XD

As for Sonic vs Falco aerial wise, I don't play Falco too often, but it looks to me like Falco's B-air = incredible edgeguard + pseudo WoP (even when spammed), his D-air obviously much better, his F-air not as easy to follow up on but higher priority (I have an easier time hitting with it, though I'm more used to spacies, as well), and I <3 comboing with Falco's N-air.

I don't spike as often as most people do with Falco, though... I used to in melee, then I started using his other moves and was like, "Oh hey, these work!" and I guess it stuck with me When using Fox or Falco vs a Sonic, though, I can usually out prioritize them in the air and just keep knocking them back. Fox's N-air > Sonic's anything when they collide... I've gone whole fights just knocking Sonic out of the air with him . With RAR I can land b-airs for kills pretty easily against him, as once he's off the ground, he's just a big punching bag. He isn't exactly breaking the sound barrier when he's in the air ^^

In general, though, I've only seen Sonic utilize his aerial game off of throws (mainly up throw) which is pretty standard for most characters. Nothing about it really shines, except of course, he looks so crazy cool

 

[ShadowLink84]

A sonic should be using his throws off his B-throw his F throw.
You have to aim to knock your opponent out of the arena where you can gimp them.
The only time you should be going for the U throw to Uair ^B Uair/Bair/Fair is for levels lacking a pit of doom or walk off walls.

i.e. Moses Island.

Any sonic that tries to kill the opponent by overpowering them is never going to be competitive capable, only those that try to gimp can actually be called good.