A Survey about 3.5 Zelda ["Results" posted]

[flying_tortoise]

Idk but I'm here! *rushes to put in survey*
Background and Playstyle

Spoiler

1. In 3.02, I played Zelda as a "Main/Secondary/Other"
MAIN
2. In 3.5, I plan to play Zelda as a "Main/Secondary/Other"
MAIN (but second to my Sheik now)
3. My Zelda background comes more from "Melee/Brawl/Both/Neither" (Write "Neither" if and only if you NEVER played Zelda in Melee or Brawl. Write "Both" if and only if you feel that you were influenced by both Zeldas perfectly equally. I would prefer that you choose Melee or Brawl if possible)
Melee
4. In 3.02, I would categorize my Zelda playstyle as "RushDown/Aggressive/All-around/Defensive/Campy/TrapsAndMindgames"
Aggressive/All-around
5. I think that the most effective Zelda playstyle should be "RushDown/Aggressive/All-around/Defensive/Campy/TrapsAndMindgames"
All-around/Defensive

Din's Fire

Spoiler

6. I used Din's often in 3.02 "Yes/No"
YES
7. I used Din's effectively in 3.02 "Yes/No"
Yes
8. I think the changes to Din's from 3.02 to 3.5 "Buffed/Nerfed/Same" Zelda
?
9. I prefer using 3.5 Din's over 3.02 Din's "Yes/No"
?
10. I think the change to Din's was a "Good/Bad/Neutral" decision (based on balancing the cast, good design, and anything else you can think of)
Good

Teledash/Telecancel

Spoiler

11. I used Teledash (air-dodging/wavedashing out of a grounded teleport) often in 3.02 "Yes/No"
Yes
12. I used Teledash effectively in 3.02 "Yes/No"
Yes
13. I think the change from Teledash to Telecancel "Buffed/Nerfed/Same" Zelda
*Buffed

Spoiler

As soon as Magus420 fixes that weird lag after the cancel

14. I prefer using 3.5 Telecancel over 3.02 Teledash "Yes/No"
*Yes

Spoiler

Until Magus420 fixes that weird lag after the cancel

15. I think the change to Teledash was a "Good/Bad/Neutral" decision (based on balancing the cast, good design, and anything else you can think of)
Yes

Lightning Kicks

Spoiler

16. I used Lighting Kick critical sweetspots often in 3.02 "Yes/No"
Yes
17. I used Lighting Kick critical sweetspots effectively in 3.02 "Yes/No"
Yes
18. I think the changes to Lightning Kick "Buffed/Nerfed/Same" Zelda
Nerfed
19. I prefer using 3.5 Lighting Kicks over 3.02 Lightning Kicks "Yes/No"
Yes
20. I think the change to Lightning Kicks was a "Good/Bad/Neutral" decision (based on balancing the cast, good design, and anything else you can think of)
Neutral

Summary

Spoiler

21. Overall, I feel that Zelda (WITHOUT comparison to the rest of the cast) has been "Buffed/Nerfed/Same" from 3.02 to 3.5
Nerfed
22. Overall, I feel that Zelda (WITH comparison to the rest of the cast) has been "Buffed/Nerfed/Same" from 3.02 to 3.5 (in other words, do you think she is "higher/lower/same" tier?)
Lower tier
23. Overall, I prefer playing as 3.5 Zelda over 3.02 Zelda "Yes/No"
*Yes

Spoiler

I really need to see if the new din can get me consistent followups, it seems I'm getting followups every 1/10 times and so I barely even use em!

24. I see myself playing as Zelda "More/Less/Same" in 3.5 compared to 3.02
Less
25. I think the changes to Zelda from 3.02 to 3.5 were a "Good/Bad/Neutral" idea
*Good...idea (not in practice)

Spoiler

but we'll see as the meta evolves i suppose

 

[4tlas]

I stared at the data forever and only saw a few things. I probably won't be able to extrapolate any more data. If somebody bugs me about this over the weekend, I'll try to write-up something formal. I've been putting it off, because I've written 50+ pages of scientific analysis this week, but today is that last day I'll be doing that.

I was more interested in having people's responses simply be organized into an easy-to-read format so I don't incorrectly assume what things people support when they don't elaborate on their arguments. Statistics would also be nice lol but no pressure

 

[Kaeldiar]

I was more interested in having people's responses simply be organized into an easy-to-read format so I don't incorrectly assume what things people support when they don't elaborate on their arguments. Statistics would also be nice lol but no pressure

I have a spreadsheet already made, but I'm doing a lot of editing with it (re-arranging things, and such to more easily look at data) at the moment. I'll be sure to post that along with my "analysis"

 

[Kaeldiar]

Results posted. The tl;dr is that no one knows what to think, but it is the more Defensive/Campy Zeldas that make up the majority of those who prefer the new build. More comprehensive stuff at the bottom of the OP

 

[4tlas]

That's very odd. Or rather, it doesn't surprise me because I think the balance of offense/defense shifted toward defense with this update, but it is still interesting.

Thanks for the analysis!

 

[nikon0iT]

I literally hate zelda with all of my heart haha

 

[Prynne]

That's ok. I hate Little Mac.

 

[luxingo]

Nice work with the survey and thanks for putting the effort in compiling the results.

After messing around with it in Excel, I think the greater trend is that players who prefer 3.5's Zelda are those who think Din's Fire has been buffed, or players who think the viability is the same AND also prefer 3.5's Din's Fire. This makes sense given the immense focus on Din's Fire in comparing the two versions. Only two (Angell and Somedutch) of the 26 players who entered something for both viability and preferring 3.5's Din's Fire didn't follow this trend.

 

[4tlas]

Its definitely the biggest change. At least all the other moves that were changed (Nayru's, teledash, lightning kick) heavily kept the core play patterns intact (except, one could argue, Nayru's).

 

[WhiteCrow]

Nice work with the survey and thanks for putting the effort in compiling the results.

After messing around with it in Excel, I think the greater trend is that players who prefer 3.5's Zelda are those who think Din's Fire has been buffed, or players who think the viability is the same AND also prefer 3.5's Din's Fire. This makes sense given the immense focus on Din's Fire in comparing the two versions. Only two (Angell and Somedutch) of the 26 players who entered something for both viability and preferring 3.5's Din's Fire didn't follow this trend.

Makes sense to me. I don't know how much losing two Din's will impact her viability, but it has certainly increased people's attention towards her. Aside from Zhime, when have we seen consistent top 8 Zelda play? Oracle might not main her but he is getting results and showing players that Zelda is not such a foreign character. If more people play Zelda more technology can be discovered. We even have an official PMDT member giving direct feedback and frame by frame insight in our forums. Can you remember the last time that happened? Me neither. I still have mad respect for Zhime, don't get me wrong.

Regardless of whether you think 3.5 Zelda was a step in the wrong direction or not, you cannot deny this year being a good (maybe the best) year for Zelda growth. People WANT to know how her moves work now, and it's not just because they are salty. People are genuinely curious. I've already had 4 of my friends ask me about the new Zelda. "Defend our Princess wherever she is needed," so said Zhime.

 

[Rizner]

Makes sense to me. I don't know how much losing two Din's will impact her viability, but it has certainly increased people's attention towards her. Aside from Zhime, when have we seen consistent top 8 Zelda play? Oracle might not main her but he is getting results and showing players that Zelda is not such a foreign character. If more people play Zelda more technology can be discovered. We even have an official PMDT member giving direct feedback and frame by frame insight in our forums. Can you remember the last time that happened? Me neither. I still have mad respect for Zhime, don't get me wrong.

Regardless of whether you think 3.5 Zelda was a step in the wrong direction or not, you cannot deny this year being a good (maybe the best) year for Zelda growth. People WANT to know how her moves work now, and it's not just because they are salty. People are genuinely curious. I've already had 4 of my friends ask me about the new Zelda. "Defend our Princess wherever she is needed," so said Zhime.

I deny that, lol. Also at nationals I wasn't top 8, but often in locals or tournaments in the region I would place top 8 pretty regularly.

I think people ask more questions now because they had lots of time with the old Zelda and her dins made more sense. Now she's just less intuitive and more confusing to players who are watching, so they need to ask how it works to play against properly

 

[Zerudahime]

@ WhiteCrow
Ryoko has always made posts with all of Zelda's frame data and photos included.
Ryoko always responded to questions, as did I.
We didnt need a controversial release to bring light to our favorite character.


I think its more trying to gain good graces with a group of unsatisfied individuals, but, I could care less really.
"Oh we completely screwed your character up after 3 years? Here let me tell you how we did it so you can feel better about it."

(-_-) Gimme a break.

 

[WhiteCrow]

@ WhiteCrow
Ryoko has always made posts with all of Zelda's frame data and photos included.
Ryoko always responded to questions, as did I.
We didnt need a controversial release to bring light to our favorite character.


I think its more trying to gain good graces with a group of unsatisfied individuals, but, I could care less really.
"Oh we completely screwed your character up after 3 years? Here let me tell you how we did it so you can feel better about it."

(-_-) Gimme a break.

I never said you didn't, it's just been a while. I don't know if you noticed but these past six months have sucked for anyone who stayed on this forum. There were more paranoid posts about nerfs than there were actual meta discussions and a salt thread with more updates than our main guides. there just hasn't been any new tech or growth and I see 3.5 as opportunity for Zelda. I know people disagree with me but I just want what's best for this community. I'll be damned if I spend this patch sitting on my ass instead of continuing to push my favorite character to her limits.

 

[4tlas]

I never said you didn't, it's just been a while. I don't know if you noticed but these past six months have sucked for anyone who stayed on this forum. There were more paranoid posts about nerfs than there were actual meta discussions and a salt thread with more updates than our main guides. there just hasn't been any new tech or growth and I see 3.5 as opportunity for Zelda. I know people disagree with me but I just want what's best for this community. I'll be damned if I spend this patch sitting on my *** instead of continuing to push my favorite character to her limits.

While the forums have certainly livened up, I feel that most of what has happened has been rage-fueled or rage-inducing. And I certainly have heard a LOT more rage in real life against Zelda players.

I never saw a PMDT member say anything on the Zelda boards before 3.5 came out. Nobody asked for opinions. Nobody bounced ideas. Nobody even came by to say "hey the near-final build has some huge changes for Zelda. Just a heads-up".

What's best for the community is communication. They have the same root for a reason! Making blanket statements about what people's OPINIONS should be is probably going to cause some trouble. Instead, talk about it and try to understand why people feel/think the way they do, and then lay out your reasoning.

And no, this is certainly not just directed to you. I don't like calling out people so I won't bother. I only bothered bringing it up now because you aren't being an ass, but the way you worded your prior post could easily have been interpreted that way. Sorry.

 

[otheusrex]

I never saw a PMDT member say anything on the Zelda boards before 3.5 came out.

Ryoko and Zhime talked on smashboards if people had questions before, or to comment on a trending topic.

Nobody asked for opinions. Nobody bounced ideas. Nobody even came by to say "hey the near-final build has some huge changes for Zelda. Just a heads-up".

That's true, although i don't know if any other developers for other characters actually do that either. The most I imagine happens with public development is people making suggestions like we are here and if they're good ones, the pmdt discusses whether or not to include them.

What's best for the community is communication. They have the same root for a reason! Making blanket statements about what people's OPINIONS should be is probably going to cause some trouble. Instead, talk about it and try to understand why people feel/think the way they do, and then lay out your reasoning.

I agree, communication is good. I'll admit that I can be passionate sometimes, but I hope no one feels I ever just rail at someone to agree with me. Even if I'm trying to be strongly persuasive, I always do so by making intellectual points. Discussing the merits of individual changes to Zelda is conducive to building discussions around points, but there is something more subjective, nebulous, and behavioral about the reasons why all these minor tweaks were made to Zelda that isn't really covered in conversations about points.

I think its more trying to gain good graces with a group of unsatisfied individuals, but, I could care less really.
"Oh we completely screwed your character up after 3 years? Here let me tell you how we did it so you can feel better about it."

Zhime's addressing something here that's easy for me to laugh at in its presentation, but when I think about it, I don't disagree with. Zhime is expressing an emotion that probably many other people feel, and it shouldn't necessarily be dismissed because it's subjective. The way Zelda 'feels' to people who have dedicated themselves to her for years matters in design; just like the way other mains 'feel' about their characters matters. The PMDT for a whole year was silent about any Zelda changes; no outreach, no poling, no interest in zelda mains, while all the while they gradually pieced together this build in which virtually every move has some sort of nerf to it with only a few cherry-picked buffs. And sure, in theory everyone was getting nerfs, but not everyone got the same level of nerfs. I'm not suggesting PMDT has something personal against Zelda, but I'm saying that most of these changes weren't necessary at all, even considering how everyone was getting toned down.

I also went through point by point to raise questions why each nerf was necessary, and if I was pointed in my language, I tried to lay out my reasonings rationally and calmly with facts. It's an entirely delicate matter, however, when you're criticizing a motivation as it's far too easy to be written off as mudslinging. However, I still think it's important to examine those motivations. So, it is a concern of mine that the pmdt is potentially in such a convenient position. They've made all these changes to Zelda in private and have thus avoided the need to defend making these drastic changes; they can sit back and claim that any changes to restore what was the status quo are just unnecessary, and by suggesting these changes, a Zelda main can be criticized for whining.

PM Zelda before was a mixture of brawl and melee Zelda with a few PM inventions. Now she's taken a heavy shift towards melee Zelda with a few inventions, arbitrarily. Making design choices arbitrarily is fine when all matters are equal, however, making such a heavy swing towards melee over brawl zelda alienates both brawl and pre 3.5 zelda mains. I feel the PMDT valued the thoughts and preferences of existing Zelda mains too little. It's just peculiar that the PMDT is now deciding to take an interest in what our opinions are about what they did.

 

[4tlas]

.

I never saw them say anything because I joined the boards partway through 3.02, pretty much after they had left the team.

I wasn't suggesting that Zelda was singled out in not having intents communicated, but I was suggesting that a) it was more critical here due to the magnitude of changes and b) communication is something to strive for regardless.

I pretty much agree with everything else you said.

 

[otheusrex]

I agree, more communication about upcoming changes to Zelda would have been such an olive branch. Not to keep switching sides here, but to play devil's advocate, I bet the PMDT wasn't even sure what they wanted to finally release for the 3.5 build so that would have been difficult. You can even see that the Zelda in the last PM Art Tuesday is a different build than the Zelda in the 3.5 release trailer. Hell, I think the PMDT on the whole isn't even sure what they want zelda to be like in 3.5 even after its release! lol

 

[WhiteCrow]

The PMDT really doesn't owe us anything in regards to her changes. They make changes. They justify them with game wide goals. We cope. That process doesn't really seem to be changing since it has been this way with almost every patch of the game. Zelda will probably see significant changes in the future, but I don't plan on stepping down from her or Project M. No matter what they do to her, Project M Zelda is still more unique and viable than any iteration. The fact that mechanics change is kind of exciting because you get to retrain and learn new things with each patch. I never even considered edge cancelling teleports and now it's something I practice daily.

TLDR; Having Magus around is great, and Zhime will always answer questions even if it's for 3.5. If you don't like PM Zelda then try out Smash 4 Zelda, her metagame is even more fresh than ours.

 

[4tlas]

The PMDT really doesn't owe us anything in regards to her changes. They make changes. They justify them with game wide goals. We cope. That process doesn't really seem to be changing since it has been this way with almost every patch of the game. Zelda will probably see significant changes in the future, but I don't plan on stepping down from her or Project M. No matter what they do to her, Project M Zelda is still more unique and viable than any iteration. The fact that mechanics change is kind of exciting because you get to retrain and learn new things with each patch. I never even considered edge cancelling teleports and now it's something I practice daily.

TLDR; Having Magus around is great, and Zhime will always answer questions even if it's for 3.5. If you don't like PM Zelda then try out Smash 4 Zelda, her metagame is even more fresh than ours.

I agree with this sentiment. When the changes first came out I was very angry because I LOVED 3.02 Zelda, but now that I've had time to play and get used to the changes I'm no longer angry. I still prefer the old Dins Fire, and I think a better version would be to take some of each version (not necessarily the 'best' parts, I don't just want an OP move). I also REALLY miss the supersweetspots.

I am no longer certain that this version of Zelda is worse than the old one. Granted, I'm a better player now, but part of that is me using new Zelda's options, so idk.

But at the end of the day, Zelda is still my girl.

 

[Downdraft]

The PMDT really doesn't owe us anything in regards to her changes. They make changes. They justify them with game wide goals. We cope. That process doesn't really seem to be changing since it has been this way with almost every patch of the game. Zelda will probably see significant changes in the future, but I don't plan on stepping down from her or Project M. No matter what they do to her, Project M Zelda is still more unique and viable than any iteration. The fact that mechanics change is kind of exciting because you get to retrain and learn new things with each patch. I never even considered edge cancelling teleports and now it's something I practice daily.

TLDR; Having Magus around is great, and Zhime will always answer questions even if it's for 3.5. If you don't like PM Zelda then try out Smash 4 Zelda, her metagame is even more fresh than ours.

Does not compute. Why would someone want to play a less unique and viable iteration of a character in a game with fixed, limited mechanics? Brawl and Sm4sh Zelda are fun to play casually, but if I really want to have fun with the character, then I'll play Project M or Brawl-.

 

[WhiteCrow]

Why would someone want to play a less unique and viable iteration of a character in a game with fixed, limited mechanics?

To each their own. Everyone has a preference and it's not always PM.

 

[Downdraft]

To each their own. Everyone has a preference and it's not always PM.

That's true. I just found it funny that you basically said that PM Zelda is the best then suggested that people may want to play crappier version of their favorite character in an arguably worse game.