A simplified Wavedash option (for everyone)

[Teeb147]

So, there's been talk and concerns about including wavedash in Ultimate, including simplifying it.
This thread is meant to try to alleviate those concerns with some ideas. We need to be realistic about nintendo's intentions and concerns, and I've thought of some stuff to handle them. If we just want wavedash outright as it is in melee, we're being selfish and not considering their intentions and all they're trying to appeal with smash.

There's been an idea to make wavedash simplified, like with 1 button press (kind of like a backdash), but that also can have some concerns. I've tried to handle these too.
Here are the bigger reasons for general concerns (as far as I think):
1. Wavedash as it is, can be seen as hard to master and not very accessible to all players. (And may create big gaps between those who've mastered it and those who haven't.)
2. Aesthetically, seeing characters slide all over the place is not very pleasing, especially in terms of game flow and design. (And a simplified wavedash would increase this, as everyone might slide all over rather than run, etc.)

Considering that dash (canceling) options are incredibly good and easy in Ultimate, the bigger purpose for wavedashing would be to quickly move out of shielding, rather than always jumping out of it, or dodge rolling. There is a reason to have it, as characters that have good aerial tools (such as Marth fair and Bayonetta b moves) have advantages compared to others, and could afford to shield a lot more and move out of the way while attacking because of their options.

Here's my idea to have a wavedash option while handling the concerns:
-Make wavedashing an option you can only do after shielding up, or while releasing shield.

To make it simplified and accessible to everyone, it could be as simple as pressing a direction (and possibly another button if it's while shielding) at the same time as you release shield, and the character will wavedash in that direction.
This will make it easy to use, so more accessible, and won't conflict with dodge rolling or parrying. If you do not press a direction while releasing shield you can still parry, while there's also the option to move out of the way with a back or front (wave)dash and quickly have options.
This way, people in general would use the flexibility of regular dashing for moving, and then while it would require some execution skills to wavedash, it would be simpler and not overbearing to the gameplay (including game flow and design) as you'd use it for it's main use, and would have to get shield up to use it.
And if it's seen as still too complex, then there's the option of something simpler (like just one button) but still only useable while shielding. The point is to make it so that everyone is happy with its place in the game. (as much as possible anyway)


What do you think about this? Please share your own ideas around all this if you have any. Do you think there's anything else that could make it better?
Cheers.

 

[Necro'lic]

Might as well plug in this suggestion I had a few days ago that got closed. Hopefully this thread doesn't join it.

Just getting this out there. Not sure anyone will see it, but it's stuck in my head, and unlike reddit, this place seems much better for discussions like these.

So I think a way to make Ultimate a great game is to give players options, however, I also want balanced mechanics and choices, and I think wavedashing is one of those things that can give it, even with the inclusion of the new run canceling mechanics. Now note that I'm not a competitive player, but I do like to put apart design in games, cause I want to become a game designer... obviously, and if I were designing Smash Ultimate, I personally would have a wavedash do something like this. Let me preface this by saying that even though I advocate for wavedashing, I'd be totally fine if they designed another, easier to understand mechanic or button combo that did the same sorts of things. The last thing I want is gratuitous mechanical difficulty, but I do want options for the player. So this is what I would do.

Wavedashing Changes:

• Make a button "macro" of jump+dodge buttons that can do a low to the ground airdodge. This will automatically wavedash if you airdodge diagonally downward.
• Have special wavedashing animations for all characters and a special visual effect.
• Include a tutorial specifically for wavedashing (and a good tutorial in general honestly).

These three changes are centered around both casuals and spectators. The first makes the maneuver accessible and easy to understand for the average player, and the third allows for them to know how to use it via tutorials. The second gives wavedashing a distinct look, making it easier to follow to the untrained eye, and for commentators.

Wavedashing Changes (cont):

• All characters have a specific "wavedash traction" value separate from their ground traction, meaning when they wavedash, they will all decelerate at a set rate and a set distance.
• Wavedash lag is now closer to Melee's, around 10-11 frames, for all characters.
• Wavedash now stales along with dodges.
  • Rolls overall should go the same distance as wavedashes minimum.

These three changes are balance related. The first and second remove any notion of some characters getting godlike wavedashes, while others get useless ones due to ground traction. This doesn't remove its purpose, just spreads the love for all characters.

The third both makes sure it isn't spammed and has a downside that is skill-independent, and that's resource management of a kind. To use wavedash means to potentially stale out your rolls, spotdodges, and airdodges, lowering your defensive capability for offensive capability that it provides. The footnote of the third change is a sort of balancing between rolls and wavedashes, so they go the same distance or higher than wavedash, giving yet another incentive to not just wavedash for everything.

Wavedashing Changes (cont):

• When wavelanding on a platform, holding the dodge button will allow for a potential ledge drop, should the waveland slide toward the edge of a platform.
  • Not holding the dodge button will make the character stop at the edge as it does currently in Ultimate.
  • Doing attacks during the wavedash at all will disallow ledge dropping.

This last change involves an easy form of ledge cancelling, where you simply slide off with the waveland and it will do it. The wavedash is uniform, meaning this option is open for all characters, making it very cool to have. As an added bonus, you have the ability to choose whether to do it or not without attacking by not holding the dodge button, giving it some extra mindgame potential, as well as more control over it. The one penalty that needs to be said is that it cannot cancel attacks that are being done during the slide, for what should be obvious reasons.

I quite like the idea of wavedashing coming from air dodge because it gives it more ability to be used for wavelanding and stuff. It also can still make technical sense. Still, I think putting it to one button is probably the best idea, while still allowing for airdodge into the ground to waveland normally. Plus, we can add an air dash like Quillion suggested in another thread of mine as a sort of aerial wavedash. Now that I think of it, air dashing would really help with certain characters' air games, especially the slower horizontal air speed folk like Dedede and Ganon.

However, I don't think it should be just from shield. I also still think it should work off of the new stale dodge system, that way people don't try to bypass the new laggier shielddrop by simply wavedashing every time.

 

[splat]

If we just want wavedash outright as it is in melee, we're being selfish and not considering their intentions and all they're trying to appeal with smash..

My thoughts on the matter.

I'm exhausted of the straws people are willing to grasp for a mechanic that was by no means intended in a previous game. I understand many people on these forums want a technical game, but let's not pretend wavedashing is the only thing that made Melee good and the only thing that can make Ultimate good. Give Ultimate a chance to introduce mechanics without clinging that desperately on to Melee.

 

[Quillion]

I most definitely support developing wavedashing from being a purely emergent exploit into being a proper mechanic. And like you, I support giving it its own animation.

But I don't think it's important that wavedashing be easier; I think it's more important that wavedashing be more developed with a side effect of being easier.

Necro'lic has already touched on my idea, but here's more in detail:

• Wavedashing should be its own dedicated button: by default.
• You can still adjust how long the wavedash goes by how much you tilt . This would allow Melee players to determine length based on how you angle the stick.
• If used in the air, wavedashing becomes air dashing. It can be angled in any direction and you can do any attack out of it. Plus, you can do "traditional" wavedashing out of airdashing.

As for deeper mechanics:

• Wavedashing should decrease in length every time it's used, running off the same staling meter that rolling/airdodging does.
• Most, if not all, attacks can be cancelled with a jump. By using the wavedash/air dash in combination with this, this could allow more opportunities to chase down a knocked-away opponent to continue a combo.

Now, I'm sure someone will say: "You can't just change a shield button to be completely different," right? Well, the wavedash should be customizable like all controls, and I'm sure it would take less getting used to than not doing a Side-B while walking/running in the jump from Smash 64 to Melee.

(I'm still upset that we can't have Switch or Wii/Wii U Classic buttons).

 

[Teeb147]

Good stuff. I like the ideas.

The staling mechanic can definitely make it that you could wavedash at any time, and it wouldn't be abused. So that's definitely a good option.
There's some reasons I brought up only being able to do it during shielding (or releasing), which I think is a second option, and it also makes it not redundant with the dash mechanics now. So you can space with dash dancing(/trotting), and with what I talked about then have a wavedash option to get out of shield. But if it's not really an issue to the designers and there's place for even more micro-spacing, then yeah it could all work.

A simple button for it (with staling) could be all it takes. Alternatively just bring back the original wavedash (again with staling) and it could work but then you have the old difficulty of it. Though there can be other stuff that can make it a bit easier, including good design.

Personally I love air dashes in fighting games, and I can see amazing potential, including for aerial combat, with them like you're talking about (and even more crazy stuff if attacks can be canceled), but I'm not sure it's for smash, it would change everything. I could see another version with it, or even another (ultra?) mode, where you have all those options for some amazing fast-paced fights that also end up with some amazing aerial stuff.
It's sweet to think about and talk, it just feels like another topic to me, because it's quite out there, compared to the regular stuff. It'd reinvent so much of the fighting.

It's great to play with good ideas. There's different ways to do things, and in this case it really depends what Nintendo would be willing to go for.

 

[Tollhouse]

My thoughts on the matter.

I'm exhausted of the straws people are willing to grasp for a mechanic that was by no means intended in a previous game. I understand many people on these forums want a technical game, but let's not pretend wavedashing is the only thing that made Melee good and the only thing that can make Ultimate good. Give Ultimate a chance to introduce mechanics without clinging that desperately on to Melee.

THANK YOU. I don't get why smash has to be clunky and glitchy like melee to be competitive. It doesn't make sense to bring back a glitch. It looks like Sakurai has already given a lot of thought for the directional air dodging when he said you'd have some lag when landing. He intentionally made it impossible for you to wave dash.

 

[Quillion]

THANK YOU. I don't get why smash has to be clunky and glitchy like melee to be competitive. It doesn't make sense to bring back a glitch. It looks like Sakurai has already given a lot of thought for the directional air dodging when he said you'd have some lag when landing. He intentionally made it impossible for you to wave dash.

Who says it has to be clunky and glitchy?

We already have an input buffer so that you have a better chance of inputting a button in a combo and getting a result.

And I don't want wavedashing to remain a glitch or a purely emergent exploit. I want it to be developed into a proper mechanic. Some of the coolest video game mechanics were originally glitches; how would you feel if neither the 3D Mario games nor NSMB series had wall jumping on account of SMB1 wall jumping being a glitch?

 

[KanataLen]

I like the idea of having it as a staling option, i for one liked how it was implemented in rivals of aether, as a button combo, making it both easy to do and the staling would keep it from being used continuously. For their button combination it was simply hitting shield and jump at the same time, doing so would make the wavedash animation occur in place, and holding a direction as it was done would actually move the character however far you would want (with a limit of course).

All the same with the new dash cancelling mechanic it makes the usefulness of wavedashing a little more situational, since it was to keep your character moving but able to act as if in the neutral state. If anything should return, wavelanding would be best, and being able to slide off platforms with it too. Wavelanding is both easier to perform than wave dashing and would speed up the game without making too high of an entry barrier.

 

[Teeb147]

THANK YOU. I don't get why smash has to be clunky and glitchy like melee to be competitive. It doesn't make sense to bring back a glitch. It looks like Sakurai has already given a lot of thought for the directional air dodging when he said you'd have some lag when landing. He intentionally made it impossible for you to wave dash.

Who says it has to be clunky and glitchy?

We already have an input buffer so that you have a better chance of inputting a button in a combo and getting a result.

And I don't want wavedashing to remain a glitch or a purely emergent exploit. I want it to be developed into a proper mechanic. Some of the coolest video game mechanics were originally glitches; how would you feel if neither the 3D Mario games nor NSMB series had wall jumping on account of SMB1 wall jumping being a glitch?

I say let's not derail too much into that kind of stuff..
There's people who want it. I understand being tired of people wanting it too (some people are too adamant about it). I'd like to take it easier though.

Nintendo's shown that they care more about the competitive elements (and the scene) now, else they wouldn't have added dash canceling, low landing lag, and more. So the question is more about how much more can be added and yet that it's not overly complicated. There's tons of hints as to how it could be simple and not clunky at all And obviously for higher competition, some form of wavedashing can be good, knowing what it can do (including be more balanced for all characters, for out of shield options, & more).

So that's why there's a place to talk about what kind of wavedash-like option could be in the game. What level of it would be good for the scene?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

https://smashboards.com/threads/the-future-of-wave-dashing-wave-landing.455413/ Please discuss your ideas for it in this thread.