A significant reduction in landing lag would give this game so much potential

[Big-Cat]

Not only that, but it punishes players who want to attack. It prevents follow ups from occurring. It gives everyone less control over their characters.

It's highly likely that this was deliberate. Do you want to attack? Sure, but that doesn't mean that you're going to be safe regardless of the outcome. The more I read complaints about it, this is what people seem to be wanting and not realizing the implications. This stems from Melee not being risky enough with these approaches. Then Brawl makes it worse by making approaching a bigger risk, but not rewarding enough.

The increased landing recovery is to prevent aerial approaches from being too dominant. However, it's quiet possible that aerials have new properties to even this out. Yoshi's DAir now launches upward on the last hit, making it a potent launcher. Making that safe on block would most definitely be OP.

 

[grandmaster192]

wellllllllll

even with the aerial landing lag..... that just means.......... don't do that. The game doesn't want you to use aerials as you land, so don't. That will make you fast. It's like L-cancelling: the game didn't want you to not L-cancel.

I think it's an annoying way to balance the game style, penalizing actions like that... but so be it. It is one way that the game can say: the air is not especially safe. If you're in the air, and approaching an enemy on the ground.... he's at an advantage.

Still, I would prefer to do without the lag, because I want super-fastness-while-attacking. But the game could be super-fast so long as you don't attack the ground from the air with certain moves, and like, I guess that's ok too.

So I agree with your statement, but I will probably love this game regardless of these tweaks :D

But realistically, this game isn't going to be played for very long if they keep the landing lag this bad. I don't think a smash game that discourages aerials and penalizes you for using them is very appealing. Not only are you making the game linear, but you're giving a huge advantage to the select few characters that may have no-lag aerials (ie meta knight in brawl). This is a serious issue that needs to be fixed.

 

[Snakeyes]

Like I mentioned in another thread, there's no need to make aerial approaches more risky as their relatively safe pressure is necessary to balance out the plethora of defensive and evasive options available in Smash.

 

[infomon]

Well, that's why I tweeted at Sakurai personally to hopefully improve this You should do it too! Send him a Mii-msg or whatever it's called!

 

[ImaClubYou]

Just make sure that you don't reduce landing lag on ALL moves... like airdodge. Otherwise this game will truly become Brawl 2.0

 

[infomon]

I think the only reason people want landing-lag on airdodge has more to do with Brawl's specific "hitstun cancelling" properties, that airdodge could happen waayy earlier during hitstun than specials, and even earlier than regular attacks. You could just as easily make it so airdodge's can't happen at all during hitstun (even if attacks are allowed partway through it), and corresponding with hitstun / knockback balancing it could be OK.

 

[DakotaBonez]

EDIT:
Wait, you mean he was talking about the landing lag caused by not finishing an attack before you land?
Why don't you just finish the attack before you land? It sounds like he just wants no risk for mashing air attacks or messing up the timing.

There's a physics exploit in brawl, landing on a platform during an incomplete air attack lets you land on the platform instantly.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xhXwtH0C4A
(he platform cancels alot after 3:02, when I first watched this I thought he was wavedashing in project M)
I wonder if they removed that in this game.

 

[Chibi-Chan]

I didnt get into competitive Brawl much... But what is the problem with landing with an airdodge? That's you executed a waveland in Melee and the fact that it had 0 lag was what made Wavedashing a thing. Granted you lost invincibility there... Is this because you can safely land while immune to grabs or something?

 

[xerui]

Greninja d+air extreme landing lag - http://www.gfycat.com/GlaringVastHorsemouse

ZSS d+air extreme landing lag (gets taken advantage of by Bowser) - http://www.gfycat.com/ComfortableEntireCockatoo

Sonic d+air extreme landing lag in a possibly different build of the game (note how long it takes for the shield to go up) - http://www.gfycat.com/MaleFirmIndusriverdolphin

 

[Ulevo]

Greninja d+air extreme landing lag - http://www.gfycat.com/GlaringVastHorsemouse

ZSS d+air extreme landing lag (gets taken advantage of by Bowser) - http://www.gfycat.com/ComfortableEntireCockatoo

Sonic d+air extreme landing lag in a possibly different build of the game (note how long it takes for the shield to go up) - http://www.gfycat.com/MaleFirmIndusriverdolphin

Meanwhile.

 

[JayJay584]

Greninja d+air extreme landing lag - http://www.gfycat.com/GlaringVastHorsemouse

ZSS d+air extreme landing lag (gets taken advantage of by Bowser) - http://www.gfycat.com/ComfortableEntireCockatoo

Sonic d+air extreme landing lag in a possibly different build of the game (note how long it takes for the shield to go up) - http://www.gfycat.com/MaleFirmIndusriverdolphin

Since when have moves of that nature NOT have extreme landing lag? If they didn't I'd start calling those characters Yun, Rufus, and Doctor Doom. Might as well add Sheik to that list too, right?

 

[infomon]

Yeah, nobody expects / cares that those moves have huge landing lag. Some people don't want much landing lag on more "regular" aerial attacks, but that's a totally different argument.

Honestly you could have a super-fast-paced aggressive game in which characters have long landing-lag if they land their aerials poorly.... people could just learn not to land during their attacks. Now all the lag has done is affect the game's balance of mechanics, but everything else could be suuper fast.

I think we all expect that if there is long attack lag, then that will slow down the game, and it's a reasonable guess. So I hope there's very low landing-lag. But let's try to focus our complaints on the problem (slow, defensive gameplay) and not specific symptoms.

 

[BioZelink]

The people that complain about land lag have probably played Marth. His land lag is enormous really it is. But other characters have much less land lag. It depends, some moves like Pika's f-air has close to none and you could up tilt immediately.

 

[infomon]

Yeah, Sonic's SH Bair had no lag but SHFF Bair had huge lag. That's what I noticed in the 3DS demo version. But this might have been a different build than the one that was shown with Pac-Man, where Mario's Bair near the ground looked to have zero lag. I'm sure this is the sort of thing that will receive massive tweaks before the final release. I just hope that the lag numbers in general, across-the-board, are low, and that the gameplay feels fast I'm very optimistic though.

 

[Chibi-Chan]

Yeah, Sonic's SH Bair had no lag but SHFF Bair had huge lag. That's what I noticed in the 3DS demo version. But this might have been a different build than the one that was shown with Pac-Man, where Mario's Bair near the ground looked to have zero lag. I'm sure this is the sort of thing that will receive massive tweaks before the final release. I just hope that the lag numbers in general, across-the-board, are low, and that the gameplay feels fast I'm very optimistic though.

If most aerials are like that Mario Bair then it's gonna be the best game. That was like an L-cancel <3 But probably was a frame specific auto cancel..

 

[JayJay584]

Yeah, Sonic's SH Bair had no lag but SHFF Bair had huge lag. That's what I noticed in the 3DS demo version. But this might have been a different build than the one that was shown with Pac-Man, where Mario's Bair near the ground looked to have zero lag. I'm sure this is the sort of thing that will receive massive tweaks before the final release. I just hope that the lag numbers in general, across-the-board, are low, and that the gameplay feels fast I'm very optimistic though.

I hope so too. Especially Marth from what I heard. It's weird that some characters have next to no lag, such as Mario. Hell, there were times where it looked like Bowser's Bair of all things could be autocancelled.

 

[TheMagicalKuja]

Would it work better then, to have air attacks out-prioritize shields but be out prioritized by ground attacks? It's looking more obvious to me that the ground game is clearly being favored here. I watch a lot of Melee streams and virtually 75% of approaches are all air attacks. Maybe Sakurai's trying to get around this?

 

[Ulevo]

Would it work better then, to have air attacks out-prioritize shields but be out prioritized by ground attacks? It's looking more obvious to me that the ground game is clearly being favored here. I watch a lot of Melee streams and virtually 75% of approaches are all air attacks. Maybe Sakurai's trying to get around this?

Melee's system was fine. If you spaced poorly and hit a shield, and your name wasn't Falco or Fox, you got shield grabbed. If you spaced correctly, you could gain a momentum advantage on your opponent. If things stay the way they have been where using attacks on shield are punishing regardless of how you space, well. It's not gonna be very nice.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

The people that complain about land lag have probably played Marth. His land lag is enormous really it is. But other characters have much less land lag. It depends, some moves like Pika's f-air has close to none and you could up tilt immediately.

Yeah, it's pretty much this. A lot of aerials are really fast on the landing lag (Mario bair, Luigi nair come quickly to mind), and some of the very laggiest aerials like Bowser, Sonic, and Link dairs seem really improved. I really think on average aerial landing lag is faster than Brawl and that more safe options seem to exist, and jabs and tilts are so good that you can really do some good stuff in the grounded neutral game which often creates great juggle situations anyway to use those aerials in very powerful ways (this is the heart of why Greninja seems solid). However, a lot of people seemed to want to use Marth as a benchmark, and he was really nerfed hard on the speed so he's pretty much the single worst way to judge anything in the new game.

There still need to be some tweaking to the game for sure, and I don't think it would hurt the game to pull back on this to some extent, but it's not really the kind of really bad problem some others make it sound like.

 

[josh bones]

Since when have moves of that nature NOT have extreme landing lag? If they didn't I'd start calling those characters Yun, Rufus, and Doctor Doom. Might as well add Sheik to that list too, right?

sonic has foot dive confirmed

 

[Deleted member]

Atrocious? I dont see it, yeah it leaves a small window for a counter attack but isnt that how its supposed to be? I think people are too used to L canceling. I dont know ill have to play it but i doesnt seem that bad at all.