A significant reduction in landing lag would give this game so much potential

[xerui]

Long time lurker here. Thought it was finally time to register to talk about the upcoming entry in the series.

It almost hurts at this point, because this game is close to be something great, but it still has major issues.

After playing 8+ matches between today and Wednesday, and watching the 1v1 Clash videos on YT, one thing has become increasingly apparent - the landing lag in this game is atrocious. While the movement speed has thankfully increased, the landing lag almost balances that out because it really slows down the game.

Not only that, but it punishes players who want to attack. It prevents follow ups from occurring. It gives everyone less control over their characters.

Just a simple reduction in landing lag would be a HUGE improvement for the game for the competitive AND casual scene. Regardless of how casual or hardcore one may be, everyone can appreciate having more control over their character. Substantially lowering the landing lag would go a LONG way in making this a much more enjoyable title.

I really hope Nintendo and Sakurai take note of this and make the necessary changes.

 

[Ingulit]

I wanna ask something before I respond in full: I keep hearing you guys talking about how bad the landing lag is (and I believe you), but I distinctly remember seeing Link land during a D-Air during the celeb match of the invitational and it looked nearly lag-free; was I just seeing things or is the lag increase not universal?

 

[nessokman]

Inb4 flame wars and thread lock.

 

[ChillySundance]

It's definately not universal. People have reported that many combo-intended moves like Sheik's F-air land with pretty much no lag.

 

[xerui]

I wanna ask something before I respond in full: I keep hearing you guys talking about how bad the landing lag is (and I believe you), but I distinctly remember seeing Link land during a D-Air during the celeb match of the invitational and it looked nearly lag-free; was I just seeing things or is the lag increase not universal?

I'm not sure. Everything I've seen and experienced thus far has indicated that the landing lag is prevalent for most of the characters and attacks. In fact, in one of the Clash 1v1 videos (Greninja vs Rosalina) they actually complain about it and how unfortunate it is, given the increased movement speed overall. I've also played with Pikachu, Greninja, Samus, WFT, and Marth, and it was definitely present. The landing lag seems to last longer than the lag in Melee and Brawl.

If the game was bad and had a plethora of other problems, I wouldn't be upset about this. However, I feel that this game can be good - really good. The characters otherwise felt great, and importantly, they felt unique. The stages were nice (aside from Wiley Castle....Yellow Devil = ugh), and the game looks great in HD.

The game is on the cusp of being something great, but the landing lag is holding the game back at the moment.

 

[Xavier :D]

Well it is just the demo...Improvements and tweaks are almost guaranteed.

 

[xerui]

Well it is just the demo...Improvements and tweaks are almost guaranteed.

Most definitely.

It's just difficult to determine at this point whether this landing lag is simply there and is still being ironed out, or whether this is actually a conscious, intentional mechanic that is there to stay.

 

[Chibi-Chan]

I wanna ask something before I respond in full: I keep hearing you guys talking about how bad the landing lag is (and I believe you), but I distinctly remember seeing Link land during a D-Air during the celeb match of the invitational and it looked nearly lag-free; was I just seeing things or is the lag increase not universal?

There might be hidden autocancel frames. This means that if you land a certain move during a very specific part then you get 0 landing lag. It was a heavy AT in Brawl, much harder than L-cancel and very character dependent. Then maybe the link you saw got lucky and randomly nailed this window... Could be an explanation. Fining these autocancels would take a good while in Training mode, but if they are reasonable it'd be a great addition to the meta.

 

[D-idara]

You should change the title to 'reduction in landing lag is the only thing Smash4 needs' because it is :D
And Ridley.

 

[xerui]

You should change the title to 'reduction in landing lag is the only thing Smash4 needs' because it is :D
And Ridley.

There are a few additional changes that need to be made as well. For example, not being able to follow up on throws.

The landing lag is by far the biggest issue though. If they can just reduce this significantly across all characters, then the game could have a lot of promise.

 

[RODO]

Whether it comes from L-cancelling or automatically it would certainly help. I prefer the L-cancel but if that is too much of a barrier for casuals then by all means make it automatic. It would certainly make the game more entertaining to watch and play.

 

[D-idara]

If we're getting less landing lag, it should be automatic, not ridiculous entry barriers.

 

[xerui]

If we're getting less landing lag, it should be automatic, not ridiculous entry barriers.

I agree. If the landing lag were reduced across the board such that it was slightly less, or even the same as L-canceling in Melee, then I really feel the game could have enormous potential.

 

[RODO]

If we're getting less landing lag, it should be automatic, not ridiculous entry barriers.

That's fine but it definitely needs to happen regardless.

 

[JayJay584]

It's just a theory, but I think that in that build, the devs got around to lowering the landing lag on SOME characters, but not all. They probably just wanted the moves to work properly before reducing the landing lag. Something like that shouldn't be too difficult to adjust I imagine. This is just a theory though.

 

[Renji64]

I agree with this and better character control as well.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

Well it is just the demo...Improvements and tweaks are almost guaranteed.

Yep, but those tweaks and improvements only happen if we voice our opinion on the matter, and now's the perfect time to do so.

If we get this through it's going to be crazy good for both scenes.

 

[xerui]

If we get this through it's going to be crazy good for both scenes.

That's why I'm so passionate about this at the moment. As I mentioned above, if the game sucked, I wouldn't care and wouldn't bother making suggestions.

However, the game is on the verge of being something incredible. A big reduction in the aerial landing lag gives players so much more control and promotes faster, more offensive gameplay. A simple change such as this would be HUGE.

Other tweaks would certainly helps as well, such as reduced endlag when throwing opponents, and more options coming out of dashes, but the aerial landing lag is a really big problem at the moment.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

Kind of expecting pessimistically that we'll be stuck with this to the final build of the game as it's so prevalent on a lot characters so far. I'm aware of how drastic E3 Brawl Demo was but again, it seems like Sakurai adores Brawl as this game's feels like that more than it's own thing unless you're Greninja or other quick-attacking character.

 

[RomanceDawn]

From what I played I pretty muched loved it. Though yes, the landing lag from aerials will be an issue. Too miiverse guys, you know what to do.

 

[D-idara]

Kind of expecting pessimistically that we'll be stuck with this to the final build of the game as it's so prevalent on a lot characters so far. I'm aware of how drastic E3 Brawl Demo was but again, it seems like Sakurai adores Brawl as this game's feels like that more than it's own thing unless you're Greninja or other quick-attacking character.

:/ Adding something like directional airdodge is a lot of work, but reducing landing lag basically consists of changing a few numbers here and there, if they hear our outcry, they will do it.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

:/ Adding something like directional airdodge is a lot of work, but reducing landing lag basically consists of changing a few numbers here and there, if they hear our outcry, they will do it.

Well good luck to that, I guess...

 

[Deleted member]

I wanna ask something before I respond in full: I keep hearing you guys talking about how bad the landing lag is (and I believe you), but I distinctly remember seeing Link land during a D-Air during the celeb match of the invitational and it looked nearly lag-free; was I just seeing things or is the lag increase not universal?

I would imagine the lag decrease in his Dair is a part of the buffs that he seems to be receiving for Smash 4, so I'm going to say that the lag increase is definitely not universal.

 

[grandmaster192]

If we're getting less landing lag, it should be automatic, not ridiculous entry barriers.

I don't think anyone cares if you have to press L or not as long as the lag is gone. Just get rid of the lag.

 

[D-idara]

I don't think anyone cares if you have to press L or not as long as the lag is gone. Just get rid of the lag.

If you have to press L: 5% of the players enjoy a faster game
If you don't: 100% of the players enjoy a faster game.

 

[WwwWario]

There are a few additional changes that need to be made as well. For example, not being able to follow up on throws.

The landing lag is by far the biggest issue though. If they can just reduce this significantly across all characters, then the game could have a lot of promise.

Just to comment on that - In the Charizard/Greninja trailer, we see Charizard throwing Mario backwards, and then run after him RIGHT away. If that's what you meant with follownup throws I could be wrong haha!

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

Well Palutena does also one with Back-Throw-> Dash Attack I think, in her trailer? At least the developers are aware of the throws being setup moves. Might signify they're still making sure they're gonna not send people far like that even in low percentages.

 

[TheMagicalKuja]

I'd like to remind people that the E3 build was likely composed long before E3 itself, people have made notes that the build had to be prepared ahead of time, Treehouse guy mentioned Mario is different in this build, etc. etc.

It's good to point this out, though.

 

[Ravio_Yo]

From what I played, I've felt hardly any landing lag on most aerials.

 

[[TSON]]

I wouldn't call it "atrocious" but it's not the best. Landing lag varies from being years long to being almost instantly over depending on the attack. Yes, even lower landing lag would definitely help the game feel better but I think the biggest problem atm is the damage/kb on aerials.

Every single aerial attack has weird-feeling low KB and most are paired with low growth. And there's clanking in the air now. Both are equally dumb. Hitting with WFT/Villager/Zelda's-sourspot aerials it's almost like they intentionally made aerials feel awful for this game to avoid combos. Meanwhile I can pick Sheik and do ftilt -> ftilt for 60%, then fair, dash attack, reset.

 

[TheMagicalKuja]

That makes me wonder--did Sakurai make air lag bad in an attempt to make ground approaches more useful so that characters don't have to constantly shorthop to approach? I'm just putting it out there as an option, however. I doubt it's full on true but it might be an idea.

 

[D-idara]

I wouldn't call it "atrocious" but it's not the best. Landing lag varies from being years long to being almost instantly over depending on the attack. Yes, even lower landing lag would definitely help the game feel better but I think the biggest problem atm is the damage/kb on aerials.

Every single aerial attack has weird-feeling low KB and most are paired with low growth. And there's clanking in the air now. Both are equally dumb. Hitting with WFT/Villager/Zelda's-sourspot aerials it's almost like they intentionally made aerials feel awful for this game to avoid combos. Meanwhile I can pick Sheik and do ftilt -> ftilt for 60%, then fair, dash attack, reset.

Remember, these physics are probably from the Megaman Vs. Mario match or a little further, I'm pretty sure knockback scaling will be fine-tuned for the final version, and I don't really have a problem with clanking aerials, another aerial out-prioritizing yours is friggin' annoying, and clanking in the air will make it feel like DBZ :v

 

[infomon]

Here's an example. In Brawl, Sonic's SH Bair is lagless, whereas SHFF Bair results in a couple frames of lag.

In smash4, SH Bair is lagless, whereas SHFF Bair had huuge lag. It felt as bad as Sonic's SHFF Fair, where he flops like a useless fish.

This might be an intentional way to discourage aerial-play. Smash4 seems to be less floaty and more ground-based; if you're in the air, you're losing some stage-control that you had while on the ground. This is a departure from Brawl, and seems nice. But I don't like anything being "slow" as a way to penalize "bad" behaviours. I want great things to be fast, rather than bad things to be slow.. if that makes sense.

I bet it's actually more about balance than anything, and will vary based on attack. We're seeing an early demo, and I strongly hope that the dev team will speed up the game and reduce these lags across-the-board. We should voice that opinion strongly / unanimously so that hopefully they hear us

But let's be very clear: The two major complaints about Brawl were that it was too slow, and too defensive. Adding lag to airdodges and aerials as they approach the ground, is making it slow but also making it less defensive. So it's maybe incomplete to say: "reduce the landing lag!".. when making lag for ground-airdodges also helps out the offensive side. What we really want is for hitstun to be "real" hitstun where you can't airdodge (though maybe attacks are ok).... maybe even keep airdodge-to-ground lag, but allow attacks/specials to land fast (autocancel), to keep things fast but aggressive

 

[xerui]

I bet it's actually more about balance than anything, and will vary based on attack. We're seeing an early demo, and I strongly hope that the dev team will speed up the game and reduce these lags across-the-board. We should voice that opinion strongly / unanimously so that hopefully they hear us

How exactly do we do this? Email? Twitter campaign? We either do something in the next 5 months and hope for a change, or we sit back and accept the game they give us for another 7 years until the next Smash.

I agree though about the contextual landing lag - landing lag after an air dodge is good, as you mentioned, as it makes the game less defensive.

I was most certainly referring to landing lag in general after performing aerial attacks, which is just far too high at this point.

 

[infomon]

Well, I just tweeted my thoughts @Sora_Sakurai

This whole E3 experience should tell us that Nintendo is reaching out and wants to know what will make this game a success. He can't even read English so maybe it's irrelevant, but meh! why not try

I have a lot of respect for Sakurai as a developer, I kinda trust his judgement for smash4 more than our own anyway. The game felt really nice today; more refined than Brawl, smoother and faster, and not quite has "harsh" as Melee either. It has its own feel, I just hope that it can be played fast

 

[xerui]

Well, I just tweeted my thoughts @Sora_Sakurai

This whole E3 experience should tell us that Nintendo is reaching out and wants to know what will make this game a success.

I feel like there's a major difference though between telling NoA reps of the issues and the actual Japanese developers ever hearing those concerns. Even if the NoA reps did take notes and recorded our feedback, it seems like the message would have to go through so many people before it even got to the developers. And if it did, it may not even be acknowledged at all.

Here's my fear - the aerial landing lag and lag in general on recovery after attacks is intentional. It frustrates me immensely that this may be the case, because I feel the game could explode if just a few tweaks are made.

 

[PizzaWenisaur]

Sakurai also needs to fix the fact that it seems like a lot of moves send opponents off at that 45 degree + angle so half the time you don't even need your Up-B to recover...or double jump.

 

[infomon]

Here's my fear - the aerial landing lag and lag in general on recovery after attacks is intentional. It frustrates me immensely that this may be the case, because I feel the game could explode if just a few tweaks are made.

wellllllllll

even with the aerial landing lag..... that just means.......... don't do that. The game doesn't want you to use aerials as you land, so don't. That will make you fast. It's like L-cancelling: the game didn't want you to not L-cancel.

I think it's an annoying way to balance the game style, penalizing actions like that... but so be it. It is one way that the game can say: the air is not especially safe. If you're in the air, and approaching an enemy on the ground.... he's at an advantage.

Still, I would prefer to do without the lag, because I want super-fastness-while-attacking. But the game could be super-fast so long as you don't attack the ground from the air with certain moves, and like, I guess that's ok too.

So I agree with your statement, but I will probably love this game regardless of these tweaks :D

 

[Snakeyes]

Well it is just the demo...Improvements and tweaks are almost guaranteed.

Nothing's guaranteed unless Sakurai changes his attitude towards competitive play.

 

[Ulevo]

Nothing's guaranteed unless Sakurai changes his attitude towards competitive play.

I think this is really the big thing here.

People are all exciting that Nintendo is getting involved in the community, and believe me, that's a wonderful thing. Unfortunately I don't think it's going to mean diddly squat in terms of making meaningful changes to Smash. Sakurai is the one who needs to be convinced, not Nintendo.