A little concern about tournament rules for smash 4

[edde]

So... there will be amiibos (or whatever theyre called) and customizable movesets.

These 2 new factors seem like they will alter the gameplay experience a lot

the problems:
-amiibo things can be leveled up and give unfair advantages to grinders/buyers/however they work
-customizable movesets are not as unfair but might break the game's balance

solutions i have thought of so far:

concerning amiibos:
Ban amiibos from tournaments as they give unfair advantages to whoever has the most leveled amiibo, or has multiple amiibos (expense reasons) for example for a top tier character and the counter's counter (IE: last games have a MK main, and a falco secondary to counter diddy, idk if falco still countered diddy, but that was the last time i checked)... This is my only proposition so far about these things since we dont really know all the details on how they work yet, but they seem to alter the game's fairness IMO

concering customizable movesets:
1) ban them, make people only use the standard set
2) ban specific moves or move combos that would be too OP (for example, if any character has an excesively overpowered move, like MK's tornado on last game, ban the tornado and force MK to use a variation of the tornado that is less OP)
3)allow everyone do whatever they want... in the end, it seems like you can choose whatever moves you like and so does your opponent, i see nothing that alters the fairness, but some moveset combos might be excesively OP
4) allow any moveset like in #3 but ban specific OP combos (imagine that with some glitch the side b and the down b complement each other greatly... or the b and up b somehow make the recovery way too good so that the character can only be killed knocked side/upways)




thoughts?

 

[TeaTwoTime]

As far as I know, amiibo has nothing to do with your own power. It creates an AI in your game that you can level up by fighting it, which would make it more for training and friend battles and would mean that it has nothing to do with competitive play.

I also think that customisable movesets should be banned and only defaults should be tiered. There's really no other way to incorporate them as creating a tier entry for EVERY moveset for EVERY character would be absurd.

 

[Hydde]

Then scrap tiers

but seriously,. who knows.. maybe one custom move can make or break a character and sudenly is competitive.

Imagine if you could do this in melee and turn low tiers like mewtwo and bowser into something useful. It would be worth.

 

[SmashShadow]

Amiibos won't be a problem because they will never be a good substitute for actually human play due to differing playstyles and match-ups. Not only that but the cost of those things will probably not drive most people to buy more than a few.

 

[Dracometeor]

As far as I know, amiibo has nothing to do with your own power. It creates an AI in your game that you can level up by fighting it, which would make it more for training and friend battles and would mean that it has nothing to do with competitive play.

I also think that customisable movesets should be banned and only defaults should be tiered. There's really no other way to incorporate them as creating a tier entry for EVERY moveset for EVERY character would be absurd.

So we're banning an option of the game just because it's harder to make a tier list?
That doesn't even make sense either because each character has a set amount of moves. However the moves will either have one variation that is the obvious best or the difference will be purely preferential which will just allow characters to be played by people with varying playstyles just as well.

There is no reason from a gameplay perspective that these options should be banned. If anything it allows the rules to ban certain moves like MK tornado.

 

[ScottyWK]

Custom moves won't be a problem unless there are combinations that absolutely break the balance of the game (a la Metaknight). If this is discovered, it could be banned. But custom moves don't give anyone any sort of disadvantage, unless it is an online tournament (in which everyone is still on the same playing field).

 

[Beats]

As far as I know, amiibo has nothing to do with your own power. It creates an AI in your game that you can level up by fighting it, which would make it more for training and friend battles and would mean that it has nothing to do with competitive play.

I also think that customisable movesets should be banned and only defaults should be tiered. There's really no other way to incorporate them as creating a tier entry for EVERY moveset for EVERY character would be absurd.

I don't really think we'd need a tier for every move set. To my understanding, tiers as they are right now are largely based on match ups. Any move variation that affects a match up will be considered a part of the character match up as a whole. I really can't see it affecting how match ups are played any more than different players simply having different styles and ways of dealing with a match up. Obviously the tier list would be subject to change depending on the most current meta game and what move sets may be chosen most often for different match ups, but it's not like that wouldn't happen without move set variation anyway.

Regarding customized move sets, I really don't want to see them banned, especially this early. There really isn't any evidence at this point to suggest anything be game breaking. There is potential to add more depth to the competitive side of the game, and I think it should be considered carefully. To me, vanilla move set is comparable to FD only. If viable options like battlefield are available, why ignore them?

 

[Canuckduck]

The Amiibos will most likely not be used in tournaments.

 

[edde]

oh... i thought amiibos made you hit harder and stuff... so youre telling me theyre useless and only for fun?

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

oh... i thought amiibos made you hit harder and stuff... so youre telling me theyre useless and only for fun?

The Amiibos put an AI fighter into the match so the only way I could ever see them being used is 2v2 or as a Amiibo vs Amiibo side event. Neither are likely.

As for my thoughts on banning customs, refer to this thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/legality-custom-special-moves-maybe-modifiable-attributes-no.357972/

 

[edde]

ohhhh lmao.... i thought the amiibo made your own character like stronger and stuff... theyre worthless to me now, was planning on buying like 3 for my main characters, not anymore

is that thread a sticky?

 

[ImaClubYou]

Using AI in tourney? Who are you, Mew2King?

 

[Zango]

ohhhh lmao.... i thought the amiibo made your own character like stronger and stuff... theyre worthless to me now, was planning on buying like 3 for my main characters, not anymore

is that thread a sticky?

Amiibos are things you or a friend can fight against, and the Amiibo develops a playstyle and stuff from how you battle them.

Imagine that "driveatar" thing from that one racing game they announced, except in figurine form.

 

[kazrisk]

I highly doubt custom moves will be used in tournaments, especially since Sakurai won't have them in For Glory. And yeah Amiibos won't have any place in tournaments beyond friendlies on the side who want to have an Amiibo helping them fight. Maybe Amiibo warmups.

 

[Hydde]

I highly doubt custom moves will be used in tournaments, especially since Sakurai won't have them in For Glory. And yeah Amiibos won't have any place in tournaments beyond friendlies on the side who want to have an Amiibo helping them fight. Maybe Amiibo warmups.

Where it says custom moves will not be available in for glory?

That would be stupid. Those moevs should be available in all modes in the game.

 

[Second Power]

I highly doubt custom moves will be used in tournaments, especially since Sakurai won't have them in For Glory.

Do you have any real reason to think so?

Where it says custom moves will not be available in for glory?

That would be stupid. Those moevs should be available in all modes in the game.

I can vouch for the fact that custom moves can't be use when playing with anyone online. It's in the April direct when they talk about custom moves, I think.

 

[Beats]

I highly doubt custom moves will be used in tournaments, especially since Sakurai won't have them in For Glory.

I guess we should also have FD only in tournaments since Sakurai won't have other stages in For Glory? Really though an online mode can't accurately reflect what tournament play will be like. They are two very different circumstances.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Amiibo is basically a custom AI character. Tournaments are between human players and not AI players; they're just not relevant.

As per custom moves, I remain staunchly convinced time will not be a problem. You have three options per four special moves; there's no way it even takes as long as custom controls. Balance is the one and only relevant factor here, and it could go several ways.

Banning a part of the system is insanity for so many reasons. We're not going to be smogon in the business of making super elaborate rulesets that basically define how the game is going to be played or banning anything on the basis of power when there's a continuous spectrum of power since that's basically the same thing as deciding what we want to be good or bad which is a terrible business for a competitive community to be in (you get into politics determining tournament results, very unreasonable). That leaves us with exactly two possibilities:

1. We allow custom movesets freely. Absolutely everything the game lets you do with it can be done by any player for any reason.

2. We ban custom movesets completely. The system may not be used for any reason no matter what.

I think the test here is rather obvious actually. Custom movesets in the pure abstract are a positive; we just multiply the number of options in the game by 81 which is great. However, we can't tolerate destroying the game's balance. If any single combination that exists is broken, we ban the whole system. If all combinations are reasonably fair (note that "very strong" is not the same thing as "broken"), we allow the whole system. It's clean and easy, and we'll pretty much know one way or another within a week or two of the game coming out whether this is going to work or not with it almost certainly being something that will be really obvious. We just have to wait and see.

 

[kazrisk]

I think the test here is rather obvious actually. Custom movesets in the pure abstract are a positive; we just multiply the number of options in the game by 81 which is great. However, we can't tolerate destroying the game's balance. If any single combination that exists is broken, we ban the whole system. If all combinations are reasonably fair (note that "very strong" is not the same thing as "broken"), we allow the whole system. It's clean and easy, and we'll pretty much know one way or another within a week or two of the game coming out whether this is going to work or not with it almost certainly being something that will be really obvious. We just have to wait and see.

I guess we should also have FD only in tournaments since Sakurai won't have other stages in For Glory? Really though an online mode can't accurately reflect what tournament play will be like. They are two very different circumstances.

Judging by the fact that custom moves are banned in For Glory mode, I'm leaning to the side that there are custom sets that are broken and unbalanced, otherwise Sakurai would have let them be in For Glory, his ideal tournament setting. And while the online mode can't accurately reflect what the tournament will be like, it can give us hints as to what tournaments should allow.

 

[Morbi]

The game is not going to be inherently balanced anyways; so I do not see the harm in custom move-sets, I believe it is more ideal to "main" the character you want to "main." The equivalent would be banning certain supports from Marvel because they are broken. However, that does not happen. It is an aspect of the game and I doubt we are going to get anything like "Hidden Missles" anyways. Most of them just change the properties of moves. There is nothing to indicate that that is unfair. It is just different. It is not logical (in fact, it is utterly fallacious) to assert that they are unbalanced because LORD Sakurai does not allow them online.

 

[kazrisk]

It is not logical (in fact, it is utterly fallacious) to assert that they are unbalanced because LORD Sakurai does not allow them online.

I think there is an argument to be made that since the game creator believes they are unbalanced that others may agree. Definitely not utterly "fallacious," although I applaud you for using your word of the day. I wouldn't mind seeing them in tournaments, would certainly add a lot of possibilities, but I just didn't initially see it happening because of his claim that it causes more potential for unbalance.

 

[TheMagicalKuja]

Isn't it banned on "With Anyone", and not specifically "For Glory"? In other words, Randoms?

If anything, Sakurai seems to be leaning towards "not knowing your foe's moves = bad", NOT "custom moves = bad", if his explanation was anything to go by.

 

[kazrisk]

Isn't it banned on "With Anyone", and not specifically "For Glory"? In other words, Randoms?

If anything, Sakurai seems to be leaning towards "not knowing your foe's moves = bad", NOT "custom moves = bad", if his explanation was anything to go by.

And you won't know your foe's moves in tournaments if custom movesets were allowed, unless you're facing a well known Smasher I guess. Also there is the whole issue of needing to take the time out of the flow of the tournament to input your custom moves. Not saying I am absolutely positive that there will be no custom moves in tournaments, some of the points against my fallacious statements helped me open my eyes, although I still think they will be banned.

 

[Morbi]

I think there is an argument to be made that since the game creator believes they are unbalanced that others may agree. Definitely not utterly "fallacious," although I applaud you for using your word of the day. I wouldn't mind seeing them in tournaments, would certainly add a lot of possibilities, but I just didn't initially see it happening because of his claim that it causes more potential for unbalance.

There is an argument to be made based on ONE person's subjective opinion? An individual that has clearly demonstrated that he is not competent in regards to balance or balancing a game? It is actually utterly fallacious from a logic based perspective. Hasty generalization fallacy. If it adheres to a logical fallacy, it is "fallacious" by definition (as it pertains to a fallacy). That is called an adjective, good sir. It is not my "word of the day," it is my single most uttered word when on Smashboards because those here believe that their opinions are accurate despite little to no support. It is actually quite the redundant word coming from me; you can ask anyone that has read any of my thoughts regarding speculation. It seems as though I never submit a post without using it.

Indeed, move-set customization only contributes to the possibilities. The only detrimental aspect is the aforementioned balance to an already unbalanced game. I do not see it happening either as those in charge fear change. The Smash community is guilty of it more than anyone. Project M and Brawl are evidence of that.

At the very least; we should test move-set customization, even if it is doomed to fail.

 

[TimeSmash]

Custom movesets are probably banned from online for some sort of lag reason. That being said, I don't see them being TOO big of an issue timewise in a tournament, especially if able to choose from a character select screen. Mii Fighter's customizable moveset may pose some issues however, but there is a thread I recently posted in the Mii Fighter character thread about how we should handle that.

I don't see Amiibos being a big issue, kind of off-topic but I think it would be hilarious to just have your Amiibos compete against each other as a side event (obviously if you have the time) and then you could bet on who would win! Yay gambling

Edit: It should be stressed that in this community we are notably infamous for prematurely banning things, and never lifting the ban on said things, Meta Knight being the rare exception

 

[kazrisk]

There is an argument to be made based on ONE person's subjective opinion? An individual that has clearly demonstrated that he is not competent in regards to balance or balancing a game? It is actually utterly fallacious from a logic based perspective. Hasty generalization fallacy. If it adheres to a logical fallacy, it is "fallacious" by definition (as it pertains to a fallacy).

Indeed, move-set customization only contributes to the possibilities. The only detrimental aspect is the aforementioned balance to an already unbalanced game.

You say that I'm being fallacious but then say that there is the detrimental aspect of the imbalance it could cause? I don't mind being a minority or having some flaws in my argument, but to say I lack reason in what I'm saying seems rather extreme when you even say that part of what I'm saying is right.

That is called an adjective, good sir. It is not my "word of the day," it is my single most uttered word when on Smashboards because those here believe that their opinions are accurate despite little to no support. It is actually quite the redundant word coming from me; you can ask anyone that has read any of my thoughts regarding speculation. It seems as though I never submit a post without using it.

Haha, well said, my apologies for assuming it was your word of the day.

I do not see it happening either as those in charge fear change. The Smash community is guilty of it more than anyone. Project M and Brawl are evidence of that.

At the very least; we should test move-set customization, even if it is doomed to fail.

And it's not a fear of change, at least from me, I love how this addition makes Smash evolve and makes Smash 4 even more unique. And I will embrace it in tournament settings should they chose to try it and should it work in the competitive scene and the community also likes it. Because of Sakurai's views I personally (perhaps wrongfully) dismissed it from the competitive scene thinking those who run that would agree with the game creator's thoughts on how they shift balance.

 

[Dracometeor]

Judging by the fact that custom moves are banned in For Glory mode, I'm leaning to the side that there are custom sets that are broken and unbalanced, otherwise Sakurai would have let them be in For Glory, his ideal tournament setting. And while the online mode can't accurately reflect what the tournament will be like, it can give us hints as to what tournaments should allow.

They are banned in for glory mode because your opponent may not always have access to the strongest/ideal custom moveset for their character. This is something that isn't a problem at a tournament scene where all consoles have all of the movesets.

Doesn't prove it's unbalanced.

 

[kazrisk]

They are banned in for glory mode because your opponent may not always have access to the strongest/ideal custom moveset for their character. This is something that isn't a problem at a tournament scene where all consoles have all of the movesets.

Doesn't prove it's unbalanced.

All custom movesets aren't available once the character is unlocked? I don't think thats the reason you can't use them in For Glory, otherwise you wouldn't be able to use any locked characters, and that's silly.

 

[Dracometeor]

All custom movesets aren't available once the character is unlocked? I don't think thats the reason you can't use them in For Glory, otherwise you wouldn't be able to use any locked characters, and that's silly.

You don't know enough about this subject to continue posting about it.

As seen during the gameplay footage at E3, specifically the treehouse footage from the 3ds, it shows that the custom moves are unlockables.
Because of this I believe Sakurai isbanning the moves in online play (with randoms) since not everyone will have them and they will take time to acquire. It would also cause frustration for the player if beaten by a move they don't have access to. He wouldn't make a seperate playlist for people with everything unlocked in fear of splitting the player bases even farther and having a higher barrier to entry for competitive smash.

In regards to unlockable characters, the moveset a will take much longer time to acquire then a character, especially due to the current method of unlocking them, effectively similar to stickers or trophies or music during smash run.

 

[kazrisk]

You don't know enough about this subject to continue posting about it.

As seen during the gameplay footage at E3, specifically the treehouse footage from the 3ds, it shows that the custom moves are unlockables.
Because of this I believe Sakurai isbanning the moves in online play (with randoms) since not everyone will have them and they will take time to acquire. It would also cause frustration for the player if beaten by a move they don't have access to. He wouldn't make a seperate playlist for people with everything unlocked in fear of splitting the player bases even farther and having a higher barrier to entry for competitive smash.

In regards to unlockable characters, the moveset a will take much longer time to acquire then a character, especially due to the current method of unlocking them, effectively similar to stickers or trophies or music during smash run.

I missed one detail about them and that makes me unfit to post anything more about the subject? I'm still not completely convinced that was the reason to hold them back from online. Some characters take quite awhile to unlock as well.

Even D1 instantly assumed that custom movesets would be banned, http://youtu.be/Xc-p_bE0RHc?t=32m
It seemed common sense to him and me that those would be banned for tournaments, but maybe we'll be wrong.

But regardless, I'm all for custom movesets in tournaments if the balancing is there. I initially thought that the balancing wouldn't be there based on Sakurai holding them back from his form of competitive play with For Glory mode, but perhaps he had different reasons for holding them back and they are completely balanced (well, as balanced as things can be in Smash). Can't wait to see how Smash 4 changes the competitive scene and hopefully we see Smash more prominent than ever!

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

Everyone has their own ideas about how custom movesets would or wouldn't work OP and there are a ton of threads like this, so you probably don't need a thread for your own thoughts, but uh...

I'm pretty sure close to nobody has agreed to adopt custom moves or the amiibo in their competitive region. Even new competitive players I've met have been indifferent to the notion.

The reason custom moves aren't available for the For Glory mode is strictly because of match-up reliability and balance disruption because they weren't designed with rounding out the character in mind.

 

[Violenceman]

Considering how many times I have heard people on this board wishin' upon a star for a Smash game in which every character is competitively viable, I am kind of surprised so many people are quick to dismiss a feature that could make that very dream come true.

 

[kazrisk]

Everyone has their own ideas about how custom movesets would or wouldn't work OP and there are a ton of threads like this, so you probably don't need a thread for your own thoughts, but uh...

I'm pretty sure close to nobody has agreed to adopt custom moves or the amiibo in their competitive region. Even new competitive players I've met have been indifferent to the notion.

The reason custom moves aren't available for the For Glory mode is strictly because of match-up reliability and balance disruption because they weren't designed with rounding out the character in mind.

Thank you!!! This!

 

[Jack Kieser]

Ban users who call for banning game elements before the game is even finished, much less released.

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

Jack Kieser, I recommend you continue letting people who care come to your side while ignoring the rest. You shouldn't waste any energy on this. No need to ban people for wanting or not wanting something in their scene.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

"So I interpreted this comment in today's PoTD as Sakurai not including custom moves in Anyone mode, emphasis on Anyone, because anonymous players won't know what the other player would be using and tactics used for default movesets might not work for custom movesets. It's basically so anonymous players can know what to expect of their opponents character. That doesn't seem like a reason to ban them in competitive play.
Going by Sakurai's judgment for anything competitive related is flimsy though." -mimgrim

That's pretty much my thoughts on the "Sakurai says they're unbalanced for With Anyone play so they should be banned" argument.

 

[kazrisk]

"So I interpreted this comment in today's PoTD as Sakurai not including custom moves in Anyone mode, emphasis on Anyone, because anonymous players won't know what the other player would be using and tactics used for default movesets might not work for custom movesets. It's basically so anonymous players can know what to expect of their opponents character. That doesn't seem like a reason to ban them in competitive play.
Going by Sakurai's judgment for anything competitive related is flimsy though." -mimgrim

That's pretty much my thoughts on the "Sakurai says they're unbalanced for With Anyone play so they should be banned" argument.

The argument isn't about blindly following Sakurai though, it's a mix of his reasoning and what we've seen with tournaments so far. Consistency in the tournament setting is a big factor, balance is a big factor, and being able to prepare know what your opponent is using is also a considerable factor, and custom movesets have the potential to throw that all off. Characters would no longer be consistent because they'd have so many more possibilities and you wouldn't know what they are using. Unless each tournament lets each player quickly say what they changed. Balance seems to be admittingly something not focused on when making these movesets, and balance is very important in tournaments - the reason almost everything that is banned is banned. Just seems to be safe to have them banned, but maybe they won't be. I think they will be, makes sense when I first heard them, made sense when I heard D1 scream BANNED at the announcement, and it makes sense as I type this.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

The argument isn't about blindly following Sakurai though, it's a mix of his reasoning and what we've seen with tournaments so far. Consistency in the tournament setting is a big factor, balance is a big factor, and being able to prepare know what your opponent is using is also a considerable factor, and custom movesets have the potential to throw that all off. Characters would no longer be consistent because they'd have so many more possibilities and you wouldn't know what they are using. Unless each tournament lets each player quickly say what they changed. Balance seems to be admittingly something not focused on when making these movesets, and balance is very important in tournaments - the reason almost everything that is banned is banned. Just seems to be safe to have them banned, but maybe they won't be. I think they will be, makes sense when I first heard them, made sense when I heard D1 scream BANNED at the announcement, and it makes sense as I type this.

The whole point of what I just posted is that they're banned from With Anyone because you won't be able to see what people pick. In tournament (and With Friends!) you will -.-

 

[Second Power]

The argument isn't about blindly following Sakurai though, it's a mix of his reasoning and what we've seen with tournaments so far. Consistency in the tournament setting is a big factor, balance is a big factor, and being able to prepare know what your opponent is using is also a considerable factor, and custom movesets have the potential to throw that all off. Characters would no longer be consistent because they'd have so many more possibilities and you wouldn't know what they are using. Unless each tournament lets each player quickly say what they changed. Balance seems to be admittingly something not focused on when making these movesets, and balance is very important in tournaments - the reason almost everything that is banned is banned. Just seems to be safe to have them banned, but maybe they won't be. I think they will be, makes sense when I first heard them, made sense when I heard D1 scream BANNED at the announcement, and it makes sense as I type this.

I'm so tired of hearing this bull argument, that match up knowledge is somehow invalidated by custom moves. No. You can't create custom moves, they're selected from a predefined pool. Never will a character pull a move from outside these pools. It simply means that you need more experience for a match up. I really don't know why there's so much fight against custom moves, normally the smash community is for anything which ups the learning curve.

Also, 'safe to have them banned'. What are we safe from? What risk are we taking if we start off with them unbanned? Will they kill us in our sleep? Literally the only thing banning them would save is time. It is so a risk worth taking when you think about the potential (more viable characters, more depth to the metagame).

 

[kazrisk]

Also, 'safe to have them banned'. What are we safe from? What risk are we taking if we start off with them unbanned? Will they kill us in our sleep? Literally the only thing banning them would save is time. It is so a risk worth taking when you think about the potential (more viable characters, more depth to the metagame).

When the creator of the game says they were not developed with balance in mind, I see that as a red-flag to all the focus we have on making sure the tournament setting is balanced. It's more than a time-thing, it's about the balance. If they are balanced, I see no reason why we wouldn't have them in tournaments. I think certain moves in the custom set will be broken.