A little concern about tournament rules for smash 4

[Second Power]

When the creator of the game says they were not developed with balance in mind, I see that as a red-flag to all the focus we have on making sure the tournament setting is balanced. It's more than a time-thing, it's about the balance. If they are balanced, I see no reason why we wouldn't have them in tournaments. I think certain moves in the custom set will be broken.

Can we at least agree that they shouldn't be banned day one? I'd like for it to be a 3-6 month period before any final verdict is reached. This isn't street fighter we're talking about, it isn't like there's another version coming next year. We have tons of time.

 

[Dracometeor]

The argument isn't about blindly following Sakurai though, it's a mix of his reasoning and what we've seen with tournaments so far. Consistency in the tournament setting is a big factor, balance is a big factor, and being able to prepare know what your opponent is using is also a considerable factor, and custom movesets have the potential to throw that all off. Characters would no longer be consistent because they'd have so many more possibilities and you wouldn't know what they are using. Unless each tournament lets each player quickly say what they changed. Balance seems to be admittingly something not focused on when making these movesets, and balance is very important in tournaments - the reason almost everything that is banned is banned. Just seems to be safe to have them banned, but maybe they won't be. I think they will be, makes sense when I first heard them, made sense when I heard D1 scream BANNED at the announcement, and it makes sense as I type this.

Look at League of Legends, call of duty, and ect. They all have choices pre game that are hidden from the opponent. But they're are optimal loadouts that you can assume they are using.

Same with custom movesets. Your opponent has 3 variations of 4 moves. That's very limited. In your matchup knowledge you should know all of the viable moves. It's just like knowing a characters moveset...

The thing is since your using the same tv, your opponent will know what custom moves your using. It's his fault if he doesn't know how to play against it.

If anything custom moveset snake a character diverse and may allow him to get around bad matchups or at least make it more even.

I haven't seen a valid argument for not having them in tournament play yet. Except for at the start when the moves need to be unlocked.

 

[kazrisk]

Look at League of Legends, call of duty, and ect. They all have choices pre game that are hidden from the opponent. But they're are optimal loadouts that you can assume they are using.

I haven't seen a valid argument for not having them in tournament play yet. Except for at the start when the moves need to be unlocked.

But in league of legends, call of duty, etc. all the loadouts, guns, etc are balanced by the developers of the game, from the very beginning of development with every matchup in mind, Sakurai did not develop custom movesets with balance in mind, they were developed as fun variety.

Can we at least agree that they shouldn't be banned day one? I'd like for it to be a 3-6 month period before any final verdict is reached. This isn't street fighter we're talking about, it isn't like there's another version coming next year. We have tons of time.

And yeah I can agree on that. Don't get me wrong, I'd love if they were balanced and ended up adding hundreds of new potential matchups, I just noticed that the game developer said "These won't be balanced" and assumed that he was right and that putting them in tournament settings would create unfair matches. I'm not hating on change or wanting to make it so you know exactly what you are facing, my entire argument here is about making sure things are as balanced as possible. Don't know why anyone would be fighting for a more unbalanced game.

 

[κomıc]

I hope custom move sets are allowed. It gives clone matches more variety and we can customize our favorite characters to suit our playstyles.

 

[Malex]

Amiibos - If you can control your own Amiibo, I believe they will be used for quick custom set ups. Though, as I have noted in the past, I know I wouldn't want to leave my gamepad sitting around for others to use. More likely, I think this may end up as a side event. An Amiibo tournament doesn't seem so far fetched. Or doubles with you + amiibo. I was actually thinking of buying a large pool of Amiibos and have them constantly playing in FFAs and let people bet on them. (Think Horse Racing)


Custom Move Sets -

There are plenty of other fighters that have a high number of options available to them for match ups. Marvel vs Capcom 3 for isntance. There are 50 characters, you get to chose 3 of them and each of them has 3 assists from which you can choose. 150*147*144 (3,175,200). Smash will only have about 50*81 (4050) Even if you say that isn't really the same, a closer argument would be the character your fighting against + their assists. So that's still over 1 million possibilities.

Despite having so many options, they still have a competent tier list. A competitive standard is established that is expected. If I see a Doctor Doom, I'm going to assume his assist will be Hidden Missles. If I see a ziggs or a lux mid lane, I'm going to assume they are rushing chalice for wave clearing / harass potential. After a long / short period of time, people will establish the "competitive standard" that will be represented on the tier list and it will be whatever performs well in tournaments consistently.

I do not support banning custom moves as we have very little information on them. We will have our hands on the 3ds version well before the Wii U version and we will all be able to expand our knowledge of custom moves in great detail (frame data, hit boxes, etc etc). We have the opportunity to use, at the very least, the months of 3DS as an experimental phase with rules, though I suggest we wait longer.

There is absolutely no reason to commit to either side until more information is revealed. If we allow them at launch, they can eventually be banned. However, if they are banned ever, they are probably never coming back. I just don't think it is reasonable to shut them out completely at the start, especially with how little information we currently have.

 

[kazrisk]

There are plenty of other fighters that have a high number of options available to them for match ups. Marvel vs Capcom 3 for isntance.

But once again, were those custom options in those other fighters developed with balance in mind? Did the creator of the game openly say that the custom moves weren't balanced? Sakurai said that these moves were not designed with balance in mind.

We will have our hands on the 3ds version well before the Wii U version and we will all be able to expand our knowledge of custom moves in great detail (frame data, hit boxes, etc etc). We have the opportunity to use, at the very least, the months of 3DS as an experimental phase with rules, though I suggest we wait longer.

True, it'll be nice to test the waters with that to avoid as many unbalanced tournaments as possible when the U version launches.

 

[Malex]

But once again, were those custom options in those other fighters developed with balance in mind? Did the creator of the game openly say that the custom moves weren't balanced? Sakurai said that these moves were not designed with balance in mind.



True, it'll be nice to test the waters with that to avoid as many unbalanced tournaments as possible when the U version launches.

I specifically used MvC as an example because it isn't actually balanced in my opinion. It revolves around who can land their 0 to death combo first. The fact that it can be played competitively is a fortunate accident.

 

[kazrisk]

I specifically used MvC as an example because it isn't actually balanced in my opinion. It revolves around who can land their 0 to death combo first. The fact that it can be played competitively is a fortunate accident.

Hm, we'll see then. That was my only concern and argument against custom moves in tournaments is if they were unbalanced to the point where it made things broken, which I figured would be the case.

 

[TeaTwoTime]

I think that a suitable compromise is to trial custom movesets in competitive environments before making any final decisions. There's a lot of potential for them to bring depth to different matchups; I just hope they're somewhat balanced.

 

[LancerStaff]

With the 3DS version coming first, it will be incredibly easy to set up customization for tournaments no matter how it works. We don't have a thing to lose by trying. If we find anything significantly OP, no doubt people will stop using the customizations before SSBU comes.

 

[TFofTruth]

Why do we have to pick a single standard by which all tournaments MUST be run?

The way I see it, like all the rest of the smash games, there will be tiers, and some characters will be flat-out better than others. I see no reason why tournament organizers could not release in advance, listings of which specials can/must be taken.

For example, you go to the official website of whatever tournament and you see a listing like this...

Tier S:
Character-by-character basis - e.g. must take default B, down-B, up-B. Third option must be taken for side-B (maybe it is worse than the default, so sort of like a handicap).
etc for others in this tier.

Tier A:
All characters use default movesets only.

Tier B:
Characters may choose between 2-3 options of each, but maybe some over the top or "best" choices are banned. No defaults ever banned though. E.G. - Link can use normal arrows or fire arrows, but not ice arrows. etc (Though I do hope Link winds up in Tier A!)

Tier C:
Pick any of the special moves, you're going to need them!

This can be used by individual tournaments to balance things out a little bit, giving the really bad characters a chance to mix it up more, and possibly forcing the very cream of the crop characters to take the least optimal choices (maybe not always the defaults). Use it as a balancing tool. But it's up to each tournament to decide how to run things. As long as the rules are posted in advance, you can begin to practice with/against the appropriate special movesets with plenty of time to spare.

For those who think just flat out banning custom moves "makes the game balanced as possible," and that it is important to "know what moves you will be facing every time," just know that you sound like a scrub. Learn to fight against the non-standard moves, and learn your match-ups against more than just the same top 8 characters over and over. Don't worry, if and when custom moves are used in tournaments, the community will be savvy to which particular moves are broken beyond repair and need banning.

Obviously a prerequisite to being able to have tournaments like this is going to be lots of familiarity with the game and all the characters' movesets. So keep this as an option on the table for about 2-3 years from now, when we know a whole lot more about the game.

 

[Dracometeor]

Why do we have to pick a single standard by which all tournaments MUST be run?

The way I see it, like all the rest of the smash games, there will be tiers, and some characters will be flat-out better than others. I see no reason why tournament organizers could not release in advance, listings of which specials can/must be taken.

For example, you go to the official website of whatever tournament and you see a listing like this...

Tier S:
Character-by-character basis - e.g. must take default B, down-B, up-B. Third option must be taken for side-B (maybe it is worse than the default, so sort of like a handicap).
etc for others in this tier.

Tier A:
All characters use default movesets only.

Tier B:
Characters may choose between 2-3 options of each, but maybe some over the top or "best" choices are banned. No defaults ever banned though. E.G. - Link can use normal arrows or fire arrows, but not ice arrows. etc (Though I do hope Link winds up in Tier A!)

Tier C:
Pick any of the special moves, you're going to need them!

This can be used by individual tournaments to balance things out a little bit, giving the really bad characters a chance to mix it up more, and possibly forcing the very cream of the crop characters to take the least optimal choices (maybe not always the defaults). Use it as a balancing tool. But it's up to each tournament to decide how to run things. As long as the rules are posted in advance, you can begin to practice with/against the appropriate special movesets with plenty of time to spare.

For those who think just flat out banning custom moves "makes the game balanced as possible," and that it is important to "know what moves you will be facing every time," just know that you sound like a scrub. Learn to fight against the non-standard moves, and learn your match-ups against more than just the same top 8 characters over and over. Don't worry, if and when custom moves are used in tournaments, the community will be savvy to which particular moves are broken beyond repair and need banning.

Obviously a prerequisite to being able to have tournaments like this is going to be lots of familiarity with the game and all the characters' movesets. So keep this as an option on the table for about 2-3 years from now, when we know a whole lot more about the game.

This only works if ALL of the special moves are superior to their default counterpart. I do not think this is true.

So far all of the custom moves tend to accentuate a certain aspect of the attack while toning down another part. Look at Mario's fireballs. There are times that I could see all 3 being just as useful/the best choice in different situations.

To me I see the moves as just allowing the player to flex their character even closer to their perfect play style. Not necessarily being stronger versions then the default. It's more of a case by case basis.

 

[Malex]

Why do we have to pick a single standard by which all tournaments MUST be run?

The way I see it, like all the rest of the smash games, there will be tiers, and some characters will be flat-out better than others. I see no reason why tournament organizers could not release in advance, listings of which specials can/must be taken.

For example, you go to the official website of whatever tournament and you see a listing like this...

Tier S:
Character-by-character basis - e.g. must take default B, down-B, up-B. Third option must be taken for side-B (maybe it is worse than the default, so sort of like a handicap).
etc for others in this tier.

Tier A:
All characters use default movesets only.

Tier B:
Characters may choose between 2-3 options of each, but maybe some over the top or "best" choices are banned. No defaults ever banned though. E.G. - Link can use normal arrows or fire arrows, but not ice arrows. etc (Though I do hope Link winds up in Tier A!)

Tier C:
Pick any of the special moves, you're going to need them!

This can be used by individual tournaments to balance things out a little bit, giving the really bad characters a chance to mix it up more, and possibly forcing the very cream of the crop characters to take the least optimal choices (maybe not always the defaults). Use it as a balancing tool. But it's up to each tournament to decide how to run things. As long as the rules are posted in advance, you can begin to practice with/against the appropriate special movesets with plenty of time to spare.

For those who think just flat out banning custom moves "makes the game balanced as possible," and that it is important to "know what moves you will be facing every time," just know that you sound like a scrub. Learn to fight against the non-standard moves, and learn your match-ups against more than just the same top 8 characters over and over. Don't worry, if and when custom moves are used in tournaments, the community will be savvy to which particular moves are broken beyond repair and need banning.

Obviously a prerequisite to being able to have tournaments like this is going to be lots of familiarity with the game and all the characters' movesets. So keep this as an option on the table for about 2-3 years from now, when we know a whole lot more about the game.

There is no need to be dismissive of other views. I understand the concern that others have concerning custom moves, I just think until we have more information we should hold off on making any rash decisions.

The only valid concerns are the impact on time and the fact that sakurai has said that the game isn't going to be balanced around these moves. That doesn't necessarily mean that they will be unusable and should be thrown out immediately before we even know what they are.

 

[TFofTruth]

This only works if ALL of the special moves are superior to their default counterpart. I do not think this is true.

So far all of the custom moves tend to accentuate a certain aspect of the attack while toning down another part. Look at Mario's fireballs. There are times that I could see all 3 being just as useful/the best choice in different situations.

To me I see the moves as just allowing the player to flex their character even closer to their perfect play style. Not necessarily being stronger versions then the default. It's more of a case by case basis.

I totally agree, that in some cases the changes will not significantly change the power level, but having more choices does allow you to better tailor your moveset. This is why lower tiered characters would usually have more options, but yeah definitely case by case basis.

 

[TFofTruth]

There is no need to be dismissive of other views. I understand the concern that others have concerning custom moves, I just think until we have more information we should hold off on making any rash decisions.

The only valid concerns are the impact on time and the fact that sakurai has said that the game isn't going to be balanced around these moves. That doesn't necessarily mean that they will be unusable and should be thrown out immediately before we even know what they are.

I don't dismiss the idea that at first, it will be best to just use the "vanilla" versions of characters, so that we get a feel for the balance of power. But I also don't like seeing people blindly dismissing any customization as automatically game-breaking. My post was a counter-point to people who wanted to immediately take options off the table without even fully considering how these could actually make the game MORE balanced and make some lower tier characters more viable.

As far as time concerns, I don't really see that being an issue. If you watch any melee tournament, and the speed at which players fly through menu options, I'd wager the average player could pick his special move layout in 30 seconds or less depending on the menu structure. An extra minute per match is not significant at all, especially considering match length is probably going to be different anyway, this being a brand new game.

Sakurai says he isn't balancing with these moves in mind, true.. however he also has stated he is balancing the game around players of an intermediate skill level. This has always been true, and thus the reason the balance breaks down when people begin to push the upper bounds of what their characters can do (competitive level). So it is actually a very good thing that these moves are not going to be necessarily balanced, as it allows a rebalancing to occur independent of Sakurai at the tournament level.

 

[Malex]

I don't dismiss the idea that at first, it will be best to just use the "vanilla" versions of characters, so that we get a feel for the balance of power. But I also don't like seeing people blindly dismissing any customization as automatically game-breaking. My post was a counter-point to people who wanted to immediately take options off the table without even fully considering how these could actually make the game MORE balanced and make some lower tier characters more viable.

As far as time concerns, I don't really see that being an issue. If you watch any melee tournament, and the speed at which players fly through menu options, I'd wager the average player could pick his special move layout in 30 seconds or less depending on the menu structure. An extra minute per match is not significant at all, especially considering match length is probably going to be different anyway, this being a brand new game.

Sakurai says he isn't balancing with these moves in mind, true.. however he also has stated he is balancing the game around players of an intermediate skill level. This has always been true, and thus the reason the balance breaks down when people begin to push the upper bounds of what their characters can do (competitive level). So it is actually a very good thing that these moves are not going to be necessarily balanced, as it allows a rebalancing to occur independent of Sakurai at the tournament level.

Your calling them scrubs makes it seem like you were. No need for name calling.

Ultimately, we shouldn't be balancing the game. That is namcos job. Let's say all customs are banned. But donkey Kong is terrible. So we give him storm punch and now he's upper mid tier. Is that really fair? What about the other low tiers? What about mid tiers? Etc

Don't even get started with forcing players to use worse moves to lower the character's position. The simplest way to institute customs is simply to allow them all until something is op, then ban that specific move / combination.

Concerns over their power will be addressed once we see footage of them and get our hands on the 3ds version.

 

[Jester Kirby]

My biggest concern with custom move sets and such is setting them up, they seem like a major time waster in tournaments depending on how long it takes to set something up. Depending on how it's set up, an experienced player who knows exactly what they want won't use up too much time setting up, but then you have people trying out new things and such or newer players at smaller, local tournaments wasting massive amounts of time picking and choosing stuff. Plus as stated, Sakurai isn't allowing this kind of stuff on for glory mode so he's probably not working to make them balanced. We'll have to see them for ourselves but yea, custom stuff will most likely be banned. Sorry Bruce Lee Mii.

As for Amiibos, inb4 lulzy side tournaments: Amiibos only. XD

 

[Hong]

amiibos are obviously out of the question. The logistical problems alone are enough that I don't want people to have to fuss over them. Some Smashers have a hard enough time bringing their own controller.


Custom moveset, we'll try our hardest to make them doable. No reason to ban them for balance reasons, since the game will still have good/bad matchups no matter what, just like before. We will reserve judgment until we have seen how they are selected.

 

[KingsHaki]

Hey all,

A simple solution to costumization:

1. Play the game out for a while with only standard specials.

2. When characters are seen as unviable they can be looked at individually and the community can select an appropriate set of custom moves for them that are not too OP but help them enter a competitive level.

3. Review and repeat the process.

I am for only allowing custom moves when necessary after the above community process because unlike some people's opinions I believe going into a match without knowledge of the opponents moves is terrible for tourney. Sure you can know a "pool" of moves for each character but getting hit by 1 or 2 of the moves you didn't think that an opponent had can really sway a match. Also playing the standard set out is easier for balance and also from the custom moves we've seen (like DK's storm punch) is probably the intended and less chaotic route. That being said the custom moves can still be used for balancing as mentioned above. Let me know what you think.

-Haki

 

[Dracometeor]

Hey all,

A simple solution to costumization:

1. Play the game out for a while with only standard specials.

2. When characters are seen as unviable they can be looked at individually and the community can select an appropriate set of custom moves for them that are not too OP but help them enter a competitive level.

3. Review and repeat the process.

I am for only allowing custom moves when necessary after the above community process because unlike some people's opinions I believe going into a match without knowledge of the opponents moves is terrible for tourney. Sure you can know a "pool" of moves for each character but getting hit by 1 or 2 of the moves you didn't think that an opponent had can really sway a match. Also playing the standard set out is easier for balance and also from the custom moves we've seen (like DK's storm punch) is probably the intended and less chaotic route. That being said the custom moves can still be used for balancing as mentioned above. Let me know what you think.

-Haki

Two problems with this idea:

1. This makes tournament rules a mess and tourney would have all types of different rules considering this would be HEAVY micromanagement on knowing which abilities are currently legal. This also creates a bigger knowledge barrier for new competitive players, which we definitely do not want.

2. You will never NOT know what moves your opponent picks in a tournament. They will go through the move select screen the same as you. Your on one tv. I can see this MAYBE being a problem for ds depending on how it's programmed. Otherwise you will see what choice your opponent makes. Maybe you don't know what that version of the move is? Well that's your own fault. Just like if you didn't know Falco could shoot lasers with b. It requires more knowledge, but very simple amounts. Especially considering people will find out the stronger moves and everyone will use it except for the people with unique styles. I don't see your concern being a problem in Tournaments. (Online is different, but Sakurai did ban them online for this reason)

The only way I can see Custom moves not being allowed is due to very bad balancing on a majority of the moves. Even with a few op moves we can always ban those specifics(including the default moves) if it turns out to be a huge problem.

 

[Xafer2468]

My biggest concern with custom move sets and such is setting them up, they seem like a major time waster in tournaments depending on how long it takes to set something up. Depending on how it's set up, an experienced player who knows exactly what they want won't use up too much time setting up, but then you have people trying out new things and such or newer players at smaller, local tournaments wasting massive amounts of time picking and choosing stuff. Plus as stated, Sakurai isn't allowing this kind of stuff on for glory mode so he's probably not working to make them balanced. We'll have to see them for ourselves but yea, custom stuff will most likely be banned. Sorry Bruce Lee Mii

Platforms are also inaccessible in 'for glory' mode, yet i'm sure they'll be used in tournaments.

 

[Malex]

I don't feel that hidden specials is even a problem. There are plenty of competitive games that have hidden information. I don't think "surprising" someone with a special is going to win a match. Especially smash, since you have multiple stocks.

Most people seem to think that the information won't be hidden, though.


The absolute simplest way of dealing with customs is to allow them all unless ban worthy. There would be madness if we used customs to balance. Chaotic madness.



Edit: Just to reiterate now that I'm not on my phone.

We cannot use custom moves to balance the game, as I said in a previous post.

Let's say we force a custom move ban. We get our tier lists and we say that bottom tier can use custom moves. Guess what will happen.... They will (presumably, according to people who suggest this idea) magically become better characters all of a sudden.

Problems:
1. Where exactly is the cut off for who can use custom moves and how can you PROVE WITH FACTS that that is the best place to make the cut off? (Bottom tier? C tier? C+ tier? Everyone but SSS tier?)
2. What happens if a character with a custom shifts above the threshold? (Example: you made the cut off C tier. Donkey Kong is C tier, so he can equip custom moves. But Donkey Kong + Wind Punch is B tier. Donkey Kong no longer can use custom moves.)
3. What happens as characters shift around and someone falls into a tier that can change? Do they suddenly get the ability to equip customs?

These are just the ones I have off the top of my head. You need to have clear concise rules. There are two VERY EASY options that we can choose from that I highly suggest.

Option 1: NO CUSTOM MOVES.

Problems: None. No custom moves are allowed. If a player starts a match with custom moves, they forfeit.

Option 2: ALL CUSTOM MOVES

Problems: A particular move/combination might be too OP to allow in the game.
Solution: Ban that particular move / combination.
Example: Have a list on your rules sheet of custom moves not allowed.



I do not see how anyone could suggest anything else than those two options. It is not our job to balance the game. The only "balancing" we should do is if something is SO GOOD that it makes the game "unplayable" and everyone must resort to using that specific thing.

 

[KingsHaki]

..............I think if we see another brawl situation happen, something should be done. There needs to be more than a handful of viable characters especially when there's tools to make it so. I'm not sure where you draw the lines, that's a good point, but working hard to figure it out is better than smash bros metaknight 2.0. So I don't know what these custom moves will all look like and how you will select them etc. I don't even know how balanced the game will turn out so I guess we can just wait and see.

 

[Xafer2468]

Maybe, so there's no issue with choosing custom moves pre match, you can pick your moveset from the beginning and stick with it until the end with it being saved on a name (similar to brawls custom controls being saved on a name). Obviously, some moves will be banned; but that doesn't mean custom moves as a whole should be restricted.

 

[Malex]

..............I think if we see another brawl situation happen, something should be done. There needs to be more than a handful of viable characters especially when there's tools to make it so. I'm not sure where you draw the lines, that's a good point, but working hard to figure it out is better than smash bros metaknight 2.0. So I don't know what these custom moves will all look like and how you will select them etc. I don't even know how balanced the game will turn out so I guess we can just wait and see.

There are only two lines to draw. All characters can use custom moves or no characters can use custom moves. Sakurai said that the game isn't balanced with these in mind, so there may be OP specials / combos, however, I don't necessarily feel that that will be the case like other suggest. They may be far inferior as well. There's just no way to know until we get more information.

If there is a situation where one character is TOO GOOD, then that character should be banned. End of story. I didn't really keep up with Brawl, but I think he falls into an "Old Sagat" situation. Sirlin quote for reference.

Spoiler: Two Excellent Examples of Super Turbo

Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo, or “Super Turbo,” is a wonderful example of bannings in fighting games. As of this writing, the arcade game is ten years old and still played in tournaments. In fact, there are one or two tournaments per week in this game in Tokyo alone. The game is quite mature, and there is a decade of data about the game’s balance.

Many versions of Street Fighter have "secret characters" that are only accessible through a code. Sometimes these characters are good; sometimes they're not. Occasionally, the secret characters are the best in the game as in the game Marvel vs. Capcom 1. Big deal. That's the way that game is. Live with it. But Super Turbo was the first version of Street Fighter to ever have a secret character: the untouchably good Akuma. Most characters in that game cannot beat Akuma. I don't mean it's a tough match--I mean they cannot ever, ever, ever, ever win. Akuma is "broken" in that his air fireball move is something the game simply wasn't designed to handle. He is not merely the best character in the game, but is at least ten times better than other characters. This case is so extreme that all top players in America immediately realized that all tournaments would be Akuma vs. Akuma only, and so the character was banned with basically no debate and has been ever since. I believe this was the correct decision.

Japan, however, does not officially ban Akuma from tournaments! They have what is called a "soft ban." This is a tacit understanding amongst all top players that Akuma is too good to be played, and that he destroys an otherwise beautiful game, so they unofficially agree not to play him. There are always a very small number of people who do play him in tournaments, but never the top players. Usually a few poor players try their hand at the god-character and lose, which is utterly humiliating and crowd-pleasing. This is an interesting alternate take on the "hard ban" we have in America.

That's all well and good, but Japan has also shown signs of a soft-ban on another character in Super Turbo. I bring up this example because it lives on the threshold. It is just on the edge of what is reasonable to ban because it is "too good." Anything less than this would not be reasonable, so perhaps others can use it as a benchmark to decide what is reasonable in their games.

The character in question is the mysteriously named "Old Sagat." Old Sagat is not a secret character like Akuma (or at least he's not as secret!). Old Sagat does not have any moves like Akuma's air fireball that the game was not designed to handle. Old Sagat is arguably the best character in the game (Akuma, of course, doesn't count), but even that is debated by top players! I think almost any expert player would rank him in the top three of all characters, but there isn't even universal agreement that he is the best! Why, then, would any reasonable person even consider banning him? Surely, it must be a group of scrubs who simply don't know how to beat him, and reflexively cry out for a ban.

But this is not the case. There seems to be a tacit agreement amongst top players in Japan--a soft ban--on playing Old Sagat. The reason is that many believe the game to have much more variety without Old Sagat. Even if he is only second best in the game by some measure, he flat out beats half the characters in the game with little effort. Half the cast can barely even fight him, let alone beat him. Other top characters in the game, good as they are, win by much more interaction and more "gameplay." Almost every character has a chance against the other best characters in the game. The result of allowing Old Sagat in tournaments is that several other characters, such as Chun Li and Ken, become basically unviable.

If someone had made these claims in the game's infancy, no sort of ban would be warranted. Further testing through tournaments would be warranted. But we now have ten years of testing. We don't have all Old Sagat vs. Old Sagat matches in tournaments, but we do know which characters can't beat him and as a result are very rarely played in America. We likewise can see that this same category of characters flourishes in Japan, where Old Sagats are rare and only played by the occasional violator of the soft ban. It seems that the added variety of viable characters might outweigh the lack of Old Sagat. Is this ban warranted then? To be honest, I am not totally convinced that it is, but it is just barely in the ballpark of reasonableness since there is a decade of data on which to base the claim.

Maybe, so there's no issue with choosing custom moves pre match, you can pick your moveset from the beginning and stick with it until the end with it being saved on a name (similar to brawls custom controls being saved on a name). Obviously, some moves will be banned; but that doesn't mean custom moves as a whole should be restricted.

There's no issue to even changing your custom moves mid match either. Any time you can change characters, you should be able to swap custom moves. What's the difference between swapping from Mario + Fire ball to Mario + Fire orb and from Mario to Luigi?

What if match one I use Mario + Fire Orb, then switch to Luigi for game two, then swap back to mario? Do I have to use Mario + Fire Orb? What if I disable the name to go back to default is that allowed? There is absolutely no reason why players can't swap specials in between games of a match.

 

[Xafer2468]

There are only two lines to draw. All characters can use custom moves or no characters can use custom moves. Sakurai said that the game isn't balanced with these in mind, so there may be OP specials / combos, however, I don't necessarily feel that that will be the case like other suggest. They may be far inferior as well. There's just no way to know until we get more information.

If there is a situation where one character is TOO GOOD, then that character should be banned. End of story. I didn't really keep up with Brawl, but I think he falls into an "Old Sagat" situation. Sirlin quote for reference.

Spoiler: Two Excellent Examples of Super Turbo

Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo, or “Super Turbo,” is a wonderful example of bannings in fighting games. As of this writing, the arcade game is ten years old and still played in tournaments. In fact, there are one or two tournaments per week in this game in Tokyo alone. The game is quite mature, and there is a decade of data about the game’s balance.

Many versions of Street Fighter have "secret characters" that are only accessible through a code. Sometimes these characters are good; sometimes they're not. Occasionally, the secret characters are the best in the game as in the game Marvel vs. Capcom 1. Big deal. That's the way that game is. Live with it. But Super Turbo was the first version of Street Fighter to ever have a secret character: the untouchably good Akuma. Most characters in that game cannot beat Akuma. I don't mean it's a tough match--I mean they cannot ever, ever, ever, ever win. Akuma is "broken" in that his air fireball move is something the game simply wasn't designed to handle. He is not merely the best character in the game, but is at least ten times better than other characters. This case is so extreme that all top players in America immediately realized that all tournaments would be Akuma vs. Akuma only, and so the character was banned with basically no debate and has been ever since. I believe this was the correct decision.

Japan, however, does not officially ban Akuma from tournaments! They have what is called a "soft ban." This is a tacit understanding amongst all top players that Akuma is too good to be played, and that he destroys an otherwise beautiful game, so they unofficially agree not to play him. There are always a very small number of people who do play him in tournaments, but never the top players. Usually a few poor players try their hand at the god-character and lose, which is utterly humiliating and crowd-pleasing. This is an interesting alternate take on the "hard ban" we have in America.

That's all well and good, but Japan has also shown signs of a soft-ban on another character in Super Turbo. I bring up this example because it lives on the threshold. It is just on the edge of what is reasonable to ban because it is "too good." Anything less than this would not be reasonable, so perhaps others can use it as a benchmark to decide what is reasonable in their games.

The character in question is the mysteriously named "Old Sagat." Old Sagat is not a secret character like Akuma (or at least he's not as secret!). Old Sagat does not have any moves like Akuma's air fireball that the game was not designed to handle. Old Sagat is arguably the best character in the game (Akuma, of course, doesn't count), but even that is debated by top players! I think almost any expert player would rank him in the top three of all characters, but there isn't even universal agreement that he is the best! Why, then, would any reasonable person even consider banning him? Surely, it must be a group of scrubs who simply don't know how to beat him, and reflexively cry out for a ban.

But this is not the case. There seems to be a tacit agreement amongst top players in Japan--a soft ban--on playing Old Sagat. The reason is that many believe the game to have much more variety without Old Sagat. Even if he is only second best in the game by some measure, he flat out beats half the characters in the game with little effort. Half the cast can barely even fight him, let alone beat him. Other top characters in the game, good as they are, win by much more interaction and more "gameplay." Almost every character has a chance against the other best characters in the game. The result of allowing Old Sagat in tournaments is that several other characters, such as Chun Li and Ken, become basically unviable.

If someone had made these claims in the game's infancy, no sort of ban would be warranted. Further testing through tournaments would be warranted. But we now have ten years of testing. We don't have all Old Sagat vs. Old Sagat matches in tournaments, but we do know which characters can't beat him and as a result are very rarely played in America. We likewise can see that this same category of characters flourishes in Japan, where Old Sagats are rare and only played by the occasional violator of the soft ban. It seems that the added variety of viable characters might outweigh the lack of Old Sagat. Is this ban warranted then? To be honest, I am not totally convinced that it is, but it is just barely in the ballpark of reasonableness since there is a decade of data on which to base the claim.

There's no issue to even changing your custom moves mid match either. Any time you can change characters, you should be able to swap custom moves. What's the difference between swapping from Mario + Fire ball to Mario + Fire orb and from Mario to Luigi?

What if match one I use Mario + Fire Orb, then switch to Luigi for game two, then swap back to mario? Do I have to use Mario + Fire Orb? What if I disable the name to go back to default is that allowed? There is absolutely no reason why players can't swap specials in between games of a match.

I'm only proposing this because people are complaning about custom moves apparently taking too long to choose, that was meant for them. I completely agree with you, though.

 

[KingsHaki]

Metaknight>>>>>>>>>>>>>Old Sagat lol

 

[Malex]

I'm only proposing this because people are complaning about custom moves apparently taking too long to choose, that was meant for them. I completely agree with you, though.

Yes. In my opinion, that is a legitimate complaint. However, we have zero information on how it is input. Worst case scenario? It takes WAY too long and we have to not allow custom move inputs. It seems that Amiibos may be a solution in this regard, I'm not sure but I remember hearing that you can control your Amiibo. So you can set custom moves for it and load it instantly.

Until we receive more information on them, people will continue to complain about it and demand they are banned.

Metaknight>>>>>>>>>>>>>Old Sagat lol

Considering that the issue of Metaknight being banned is even a debate suggests otherwise. There is absolutely no question for the legality of Akuma. No one besides Akuma can be Akuma. Old Sagat limits the roster to a small few. If there are characters that stand a chance against Metaknight, but he eliminates the roster to a small few that can beat him, then he's a borderline like Old Sagat.

 

[KingsHaki]

1. There was a ban on Metaknight until Japan cried.

2. "There isn't even a universal agreement that he was the best" - about Sagat in your article. I would say that you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who thinks metaknight is not clearly the best.

3. Metaknight's description is like superman: faster than a light character, hits harder than a heavy character, recovers like a bird, a plane it's metaknight!


Plus I'd rather have some variety than watching double tornados or a tiger shot war. The stream monsters might like it too lol.

 

[Saikyoshi]

I don't really care about default fighters' custom movesets, but I will only participate in tournaments where Miis are allowed unrestricted because I do not believe in banning characters without a good reason and I do not want scrubs ruining a feature that I really do want to get excited about.

If there are no Mii-legal tournaments, then just call me Casual. Or a Project M player, because banning them just might be enough to convince me to not buy the game.

My hype is completely dead. Tell me why I shouldn't save my money.

 

[Nintendrone]

Gonna put this out there:
Banning a new feature in a game that is not released is completely stupid since we have pretty much zero data on how it would practically work in a tourney setting.

This is different from the gear you can equip to change stats. All gear have totally random stats, so there can be zero standardization with it. On the contrary, there are only 3 versions of each special, which means that you can reliably prepare for them.

The best option is to allow unrestricted custom moves at first until there is irrefutable evidence that the whole concept ruins the tourney scene. If there are broken moves that ridiculously overcentralize the game in all areas (as in above MK level), then ban that specific thing. If we make the rash decision to ban custom moves before the game is even out, we'll have a very hard time unbanning them.

 

[weegee2407]

I see the custom movesets issue to be like pokemon. Each pokemon (especially the competitively viable ones) have dozens of moves to choose from and many options with which to play. This variety and choice is one thing that makes the pokemon competitive scene so interesting. Yes, there are op and up pokemon but smash doesn't have over 700 characters to balance.

 

[Pyra]

ohhhh lmao.... i thought the amiibo made your own character like stronger and stuff... theyre worthless to me now, was planning on buying like 3 for my main characters, not anymore

is that thread a sticky?

Yeah. Amiibos give no advantage to anybody whatsoever. Haha.

 

[KingsHaki]

Gonna put this out there:
Banning a new feature in a game that is not released is completely stupid since we have pretty much zero data on how it would practically work in a tourney setting.

This is different from the gear you can equip to change stats. All gear have totally random stats, so there can be zero standardization with it. On the contrary, there are only 3 versions of each special, which means that you can reliably prepare for them.

The best option is to allow unrestricted custom moves at first until there is irrefutable evidence that the whole concept ruins the tourney scene. If there are broken moves that ridiculously overcentralize the game in all areas (as in above MK level), then ban that specific thing. If we make the rash decision to ban custom moves before the game is even out, we'll have a very hard time unbanning them.

Yes, I think wait and see is definitely the right approach. That's it for me, see you on the character boards until then lol

 

[Nintendrone]

Yes, I think wait and see is definitely the right approach. That's it for me, see you on the character boards until then lol

Glad to see I got my point across. TBH, I see no reason to argue about custom moves' legality because we know pretty much nothing about how they would work in a tournament. See ya on the character boards!