A discussion of "equal skill"

[Toomai]

Okay, so I don't know if any of this will actually make sense or have any sort of importance, and I don't even know if I can explain it correctly, but I'm trying anyway.

Everyone who plays a game has their own skill level. Now, if two players are equally skilled, they should win 50% of the time against each other, right? Likewise, if someone is twice as skilled, they would win twice as often (67/33).

But at first, this can't be applied to SSBM. Take the most extreme example: Fox vs. Pichu. Assume that both players are of "equal skill". According to many sources, including that matchup chart I've seen around here, the Pichu is going home.

Think about this. Are two players truely of equal skill if one will almost always win over the other? If equal skill is defined as having a 50/50 chance of winning, then of course not.

The first question is, "Can we meaningfully compare the skill levels of two players that use different characters?" Well, each character needs a completely different set of skills: Fox players need to SHDL, u-smash, and shine combo; Peach players need to float combo, f-throw, and d-smash; Ice Climbers need to desynch, Yoshis need to egg, smash, and shield, and Mewtwos need to be really dodgy. To me, this means that there are twenty-six different skill "ladders", one for each character.

Just like Farenheight and Celsius, there is probably some sort of exchange rate between different skill ladders. As per the example above: maybe to have Pichu equal Fox, the Pichu needs to be at skill 9, while the Fox is at skill 5 (completely arbitrary numbers).

But now the problem comes in. If the highest skill of Pichu is equivalent to a lower skill of Fox, then that says (to me) that Pichu just can't be skilled. Obviously, this is untrue. So the big question is, "Why are two different characters only evenly matched when the players are at different skill levels?" Or to put it another way, "How can a master of one character be beaten by an amateur of another?"

I really don't know where I'm going with all of this, so if you have any opinions on what I've just said, then post away.

 

[Zankoku]

Because of certain factors involving ease of KO, chaingrabbing, and how much punishment their physics make them take.

 

[linkmastersword]

Everyone who plays a game has their own skill level. Now, if two players are equally skilled, they should win 50% of the time against each other, right? Likewise, if someone is twice as skilled, they would win twice as often (67/33).

if some one is twice as skilled, I don't see them losing to a player at half their skill level EVER.

being twice as skilled means that they win 100% of the time.

imagine you, fighting yourself in the past, when you were half as good.

how many times would you lose to your past self?

I rest my case.

 

[Toomai]

being twice as skilled means that they win 100% of the time.

Not always. Just because you have more skill than your opponent, you can't just assume you're going to win. You might make a misstep, have a slight mental lapse, get overconfident, or any number of other things that make it impossible for anyone to win 100% of the time (I mean it; even the best in any sport, game, or competition can lose).

Ankoku: You make a valid point. But part of skill includes being able to live with and overcome, or apply and execute, those kinds of factors.

 

[yomedrath]

man, this is confusing
just like mindgames XD

if you are skilled, you can play good, with your main character, and you know What to do against what and you know the game-physics.
so if 2 same skilled ppl play the same character there is a 50% chance of one of them winning (so equal)
now, if someone takes Pichu for example, he should be "weaker". this means, not that he has less "skill", but that his characters attacks are not as good as the ones of the opposing character. So this player with the "weaker" character has to play smarter, to get his combos and attacks through... so its Harder to play good with a "weaker" charackter, but not do to tech-skill, but to smart playing....
i guess.... something like that ....
well
stupid topic XD its confusing me XD
hope it help at least a little bit *gg*
now i can die in peace XD

 

[hrairoo]

If two people with the same skill level play, and one is pichu, the other fox, then they will each have an equal chance of winning, because part of one's skill is how the make up for the flaws with their character. That's why it's harder to play a less powerful character.

 

[ThatGuy]

There are way too many variables for this. Let me explain:

If you had a rival/play partner of some sort that you vs. all the time, and you both become 'equal skill', you're not exactly equal, one may be (and probably is) better than the other. The reason their matches may look equal is because they know each other's playstyles and have developped counter-habits to fight each other.

Another variable: Who knows how to fight a Pichu? Who has ever fought a serious Pichu? I can guarantee that many of you (myself included) have not. If an 'equally skilled' Fox and Pichu met in a tournament, the Pichu may actually have a chance to win, mainly because that person doesn't know how to handle Pichu using Fox, but the Pichu may play Foxes all the time. I don't know anything about Pichu, but if there are chaingrabs, combos, and gimps that Pichu can do to Fox, they will be done, and all the Fox will try to do is SHFFL over and over hoping he can eventually land an Usmash or Uair (unless during the match he figures out the opponent's strategy).

Skill vs. performance, always an issue. Some people can handle pressure much better than others. The Fox could **** the Pichu in friendlies, but stick him in a tournament and it could be game over.

Some people may have "bad days" sometimes. (Usually leads to johns )

How exactly do people determine if two people are "equally skilled"? I say it's impossible, everyone is different in their own unique way, even if everyone tries to emulate the same pros something will differ, whether it's better tech skill, better reflexes, better prediction, or just throwing out the random move to keep people off guard.

The only way you can find two players of equal skill is to have 2 level 9's fighting each other.

 

[fabianmo]

I would usually star away from threads like these but heres my opinion:

All players have certain skill
Some can be a beast playing Fox but be a total wreck up playing Sheik
So...
I think that it really depends of the player
Thats why there are mains and such
And now going to stadistics:
You said that if someone has twice ur skill it will be like this : 32/64
I kinda agree with this
Although I think its basiclly the skill
Now like said before me:
It also depends on which chars the person is used to play
For example:
I always play against Sheiks,Foxes,Falcos,etc
But if I had to go against a Kirby or like a Pichu
I would know what to do
Although maybe i could still win
But if they are used to playing samus and peach
I probably would be screwed

 

[Lesheik]

The first question is, "Can we meaningfully compare the skill levels of two players that use different characters?" Well, each character needs a completely different set of skills: Fox players need to SHDL, u-smash, and shine combo; Peach players need to float combo, f-throw, and d-smash; Ice Climbers need to desynch, Yoshis need to egg, smash, and shield, and Mewtwos need to be really dodgy. To me, this means that there are twenty-six different skill "ladders", one for each character.

In general, if both of the players know how to play other characters regardless of their tiers, they're equal. If they don't, they're not equal.

 

[marth's son 10]

Really? I think some characters have adavantages over others. Some also are just flat out better.

 

[Skler]

A master of a character should never be beaten by an amateur of any other character. A master of a character can be beaten by somebody who is GOOD with a counter, but even then the match should be close.

Take the Link vs Shiek matchup, known for being one sided for Shiek. If somebody mastered Link they can beat an amateur Shiek pretty easily. If they play a good shiek the games should be close. If they play a master Shiek they should get beaten almost every time due to how crappy the match is.

Thatguy made a good point about other factors coming into play. Everybody doesn't know how to handle every character. If you play an uncommon character in a tourny you can pull off a few games because your opponent still needs to figure out the best way to fight that character. I've had troubles against characters I know mine counters just because I've never played against a good one before.

 

[Lesheik]

A master of a character should never be beaten by an amateur of any other character. A master of a character can be beaten by somebody who is GOOD with a counter, but even then the match should be close.

Take the Link vs Shiek matchup, known for being one sided for Shiek. If somebody mastered Link they can beat an amateur Shiek pretty easily. If they play a good shiek the games should be close. If they play a master Shiek they should get beaten almost every time due to how crappy the match is.

Thatguy made a good point about other factors coming into play. Everybody doesn't know how to handle every character. If you play an uncommon character in a tourny you can pull off a few games because your opponent still needs to figure out the best way to fight that character. I've had troubles against characters I know mine counters just because I've never played against a good one before.

That explains it perfectly.

 

[mog87]

well theres always extreme camping and chain grabbing, and infinites that can throw a wrench into the notion of "skill".

 

[blaargh198]

Basically, I see it that there is more than one kind of skill.
1st, there is the general skills, things that could carry over from character to character without changing much. Things like mindgames (they _do_ exist XD), basic tech skill, and matchup and counterpicking knowledge.
2nd, there's the skills that you learn specific to a character, as was said things like waveshining with fox, desynching with icys, etc. and also things like playstyles and other things of that nature.
3rd, there's all of the other factors that can affect one's skill, just like ThatGuy said.
4th, there's also the factor of randomness, which is not as rampant in tournaments and serious competitive smash as it is in friendlies and matches with items. Any kind of random factor like peach pulling out a bob-bomb, luigi misfiring or just a missed ledge wavedash can cause a mathcup to change.
In the end, i think it's safe to assume that equal skill is impossible.

 

[Blackshadow]

What you are talking about, Skler, is exactly what point the original poster is trying to make.

 

[Red Exodus]

Like Thatguy said, there are too many variables, far too many to decide on. Some characters just plain suck, like Bowser.

 

[Uck]

1.When people in the smash boards say characters of "equal skill" they mean that as a guide to determine skill level loosly not technicly.

2.To answer your question about "how can a master of one character be beaten by an amateur of another?"This is because the characters in Smash are not equally balanced.Some characters are inherently better than others.Ill give a simple analogy

Lets say you have two warriors one of them is a master in combat and the other is only a 14 year old boy who has just began his training.Naturally if all things are "equal" in combat the Master Warrior would crush the 14 year old boy.But lets say you hand the 14 year old boy a weapon to defeat the Master Warrior and tip the scale of balance.Once the boy learns how to use this weapon he will tip the balance in his favor.

In smash if someone counter picks your character its ussually to use a weapon to tip the balance of power in there favor.Aslong as they are competent with this weapon.

Theres you answer have a good one.

 

[marth's son 10]

Good point person above me, but say you add items and other stuff in Melee. Characters and their weak and strong points aren't the only things that tip scales. Stages have a huge effect on some characters as well.

 

[NG7]

"How can a master of one character be beaten by an amateur of another?"

Because the characters in SSBM aren't balanced perfectly?

 

[ToyzSoldier]

I think it should be generally known that there are too many variables to consider, to determine people of equal skill, or if there's any such thing as equal skill levels. Like this guy said

Basically, I see it that there is more than one kind of skill.
1st, there is the general skills, things that could carry over from character to character without changing much. Things like mindgames (they _do_ exist XD), basic tech skill, and matchup and counterpicking knowledge.
2nd, there's the skills that you learn specific to a character, as was said things like waveshining with fox, desynching with icys, etc. and also things like playstyles and other things of that nature.
3rd, there's all of the other factors that can affect one's skill, just like ThatGuy said. (stage advantages/disadvantages, familiarity of the character's playstyle or of the person's playstyle, tourney pressure, confidence, etc.)
4th, there's also the factor of randomness (human error and in game stuff), which is not as rampant in tournaments and serious competitive smash as it is in friendlies and matches with items. Any kind of random factor like peach pulling out a bob-bomb, luigi misfiring or just a missed ledge wavedash can cause a mathcup to change.
In the end, i think it's safe to assume that equal skill is impossible.

Now consider that this whole thread is about discussing equal skill, and Blaargh here has made it clear that equal skill is impossible, even if you took out the randomness factor (which is the only factor which can be taken out). There's no way to compare a waveshine to someone's confidence, there's no way to compare one's abilty to predict moves to another's choice of stage. Quite simply put, its just too complicated to consider anything of equal skill. Equal skill is something only vaguely concieved in thought, and never applicable to real life. I hope that helps.

 

[hrairoo]

I agree with Blaargh198 and ToyzSoldier. There are too many factors for any two people to truly be of equal skill.

 

[Honors]

I'm going to further the analogy of GOTH

In comparison of warfare

Say two people of equal skill who were train by the same master and know their environment and knows how to use it well.

But one contains a katana, and the other with a wooden sword

The chances of the other with the wooden sword is slim, due to the tool he has but still has a chance.

So in Melee its the same, people may have equal skills, but the tools (the characters) they have limit them in their success to winning the match.

Another analogy to the extreme:

Pichu vs. Shiek

Shiek can chain grab pichu

so its like an archer vs. a person with a katana. They both know their environment, but with that knowledge, the archer has a better tool and could annilate the person with a katana.
(you could also use a person with a gun vs. a person with a sword). The chances are highly slim due to the tools they have.

So, even though the two players have equal skill ( know the stages know all the strategies of their characters), they will have limited options or tools avaiable to give them an edge to winning a match depending on the character that they choose.

 

[Airo]

toomai, the existance of a tier list explains it all.

 

[greenblob]

It all depends on the skill level of the two players. At the beginner level, the Fox might be too fast for the player to control, so the Pichu might win. At the pro level, the Fox would definitely win (hence the tier list only applies at the pro level).

 

[Fefnir Cerveau]

That's how much possibilties this game offers, I guess.

 

[XZalla]

if some one is twice as skilled, I don't see them losing to a player at half their skill level EVER.

**** happens.. ;/

 

[Klowne]

Who cares if a totally awesome pichu player tries to go up against a mediocre fox, he's a noob because he handicapped himself by picking pichu. Some characters are better than others, is this so hard to accept? People need to get it through their heads that they can't just pick up any character and dominate with them.

 

[quak]

whoa whoa whoa, your confused with your equations of probability.

yes, it's true that flipping a coin will result in a 50-50 chance, and if you double the chance of it landing on one side, the result would be 33%-67% (rounded)

But that's not the issue here.

Your talking about SKILL, you can't use probabilty solving methods to figure this out. Basicly, your trying to figure out what 2 +2 is with a watch, doesn't work.

In addition, you have to figure out character counters, how both players know how to play the other, how good is with their own character, tech skill, mindgames, etc. That's how some lower tiers can prevail over high tiers.

In theory, yes there is a ratio to how good a person is with a character, and how much he should win against another player with their charactor. But since there is no way to physicly measure the skill of a player, you can't possibly attain the ratio.

And plus, even if there was a way to measure skill, no one would go through the bother of finding the ratio between possible charactor matchup, with every "ladder of skill" for each character, for each player's tech skill, mindgames, knowledge, etc.

*MIND*

EDIT: I just read the other posts, i think most players are saying the same thing/have similar opinions, just different ways to say it. I also think that this can be put to rest now. QED guys?

 

[ZASS]

-Ew, straight porn.-

 

[Mehijunior]

Who cares if a totally awesome pichu player tries to go up against a mediocre fox, he's a noob because he handicapped himself by picking pichu. Some characters are better than others, is this so hard to accept? People need to get it through their heads that they can't just pick up any character and dominate with them.

but theres probably a large number of people who use pichu who can dominate my fox.
Besides, maybe the pichu player is even more amazing with say marth, yet he wants to challenge himself by using pichu, or perhaps he is using an obscure character because many players have no clue how to play against a good pichu or a good ness or a good ganondorf because so few players use those characters.

 

[quak]

Who cares if a totally awesome pichu player tries to go up against a mediocre fox, he's a noob because he handicapped himself by picking pichu.

Racists : Minorities :: Klowne : Low Tier Players

Double post, w/e.

 

[_Phloat_]

Good essay, I agree, also, how likely is equal skill, and even if you are talking about the tiers equal skill, they only count the better people...

A horrible fox vs an equally horrible kirby, is advantaged to the kirby, because fox will suicide alot, and not be able to kill the kirby, while the kirby will at least be able to let him suicide and maybe kirbycide...

So equal skill in tiers is saying equal high skill..