A different approach to why there's no god

[DarkVengeance]

^_^ Well, I try to be original...

But yeah, since I guess that weird analogy ended up equating a dog turd with the universe... you'd really be worshipping the dog, wouldn't you?

Oh yeah, and I'd just like to make sure that no offense was taken from my silly little comparison... it's meant to be taken lightly, and with a touch of good humor. There's no way this universe can be compared with a mere dog turd. Say what you will, this is truly an amazing place we live in, and many fantastic things are being discovered every day!

<small>[ April 30, 2002, 03:37 PM: Message edited by: DarkVengeance ]</small>

 

[drb]

Hi!
I am new to this debate. I am DRB
I have read all these remarks and it seems to me that the existance of G-d is the problem!
If everyone that cares for the proof of G-d, Just send your request here. I know how.

 

[Bumble Bee Tuna]

The "everyone worships the same thing, perverted over the years" idea is completely spurious. It sounds nice, but has no basis in reality. All civilizations created religion, but all of them STARTED different. They did not slowly evolve into something different. Meanwhile, some are not the polytheistic religions that Novo speaks of, some are not really theistic at all. I think. Regardless, it's obvious they didn't all evolve from some single foundation religion.

Also, the turd analogy is ridiculous. (Just imagine it being accepted as a valid argument in debate literature, like, say, Schrodinger's Cat, or something, or the "immovable rock" idea. "Yes, but how do you account for the respected Turd Analogy?")
But back to it being ridiculous. It is obvious that the turd was created, because we saw our yard before the dog was there, and there was no turd. Then, we came back, and a turd was there. That is how we know it was created.
The universe, on the other hand, contains us. We could not witness things before the universe existed, so we cannot make the same conclusion that it was created by something. It could just as easily have always existed. You'll see that if a creator created it, then that creator must always have existed, or else have been created by something that has always existed, etc etc ad nauseum. The end result is that SOMETHING must have always existed. Ockham's razor says it's the universe. Try again.

New guy: Obviously we want your supposed "proof", so you should have just posted it to begin with. But since you have an ego, or something, I will entertain your notion and requests it: Please post your proof of God's existence.
In the future, stupid posts like the one you just posted are liable to get you banned. You are new, so it will slide.

-B

 

[jet]

but BBT there one thing that you don't seem to understand God is a spirit the universe is not

 

[Bumble Bee Tuna]

jet- A warning. Further vapid commentary such as what you just posted may very well get you banned. Watch it.

-B

 

[Arkane]

Jet, the post about Yavarice talkign about god not Speaking to men openly... You replied he still does.. Please explain what you mean, for I, an Athiest, have never heard his voice, nor have any of my Christian friends... Yes, I do have Christian friends, but they DONT try to CONVERT people every time they meet some different then them. Jet.

Please explain about the talking God, Jet... I see that you've had head injuries in the past.. which may explain the (god) voices in your head?

 

[drb]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Bumble Bee Tuna:

But back to it being ridiculous. It is obvious that the turd was created, because we saw our yard before the dog was there, and there was no turd. Then, we came back, and a turd was there. That is how we know it was created.
The universe, on the other hand, contains us. We could not witness things before the universe existed, so we cannot make the same conclusion that it was created by something. It could just as easily have always existed. You'll see that if a creator created it, then that creator must always have existed, or else have been created by something that has always existed, etc etc ad nauseum. The end result is that SOMETHING must have always existed. Ockham's razor says it's the universe. Try again.

New guy: Obviously we want your supposed "proof", so you should have just posted it to begin with. But since you have an ego, or something, I will entertain your notion and requests it: Please post your proof of God's existence.
In the future, stupid posts like the one you just posted are liable to get you banned. You are new, so it will slide.

-B[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am sorry for not posting before. No ego here just not that swift,
You basically said it.
The proof is the turd or anything else you care to look at.
Their is only four possable explainations for it to exist.
1) It is an illusion
2) It created itself
3)It is self existant[eternal]-[always been]
4)made by someone or something else

1)If it is an illusion than all this discussion is not taking place either. And who cares.
2)It can't be self created because this violates the law of non- contradiction.
It can't creat because it does not exist and something can't come from nothing
4) If it was made by someone or something than that must have been made by someone or something and so on.
If you go all the way back to the universe then we end up in the same situation. Someone or something created it or it is self existing.Since we observe stars and everything in the universe wearing down and deterating we know that that these things are not self existing.
If one argues that ther is some point or place in the universe that all the energy or power to continue the universe than we come to the only possability left.
3) there is someone or something that is self existing that is creating everything,
We are now arguing over that address,

 

[Bumble Bee Tuna]

Whew! if that's all your basing your belief in a God over, I am glad to be able to correct you and put an end to your misguided thought. Your proof does not work because of your idea that stars are deteriorating and thus have not always existed is false. The word "deteriorate" implies that the stars are being destroyed. This is not the case. Hopefully you know some science and know that matter and energy are one and the same, and that neither matter nor energy can be created or destroyed. The stars are not being destroyed, they are merely changing states. Their matter/energy is remaining constant. That constancy actually does imply that the stars indeed, in some form or another, have always existed and always will exist.

BTW, wtf is this "law of non-contradiction" that you speak of? Self-created is certainly a silly possibility, but I don't think such a law exists, so don't try to make yourself sound like you're using science (by using words like "law") when in fact you are just posting your own opinion.

I'm glad I could clear up the mistake in your logic, because since you are a creature of logic, surely now you will go back to not believing in a god.

-B

 

[drb]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Bumble Bee Tuna:
"<strong>Whew! if that's all your basing your belief in a God over, I am glad to be able to correct you and put an end to your misguided thought"

This is not all but lets figure where you went wrong.

-Bumble Bee Tuna:
" Your proof does not work because of your idea that stars are deteriorating and thus have not always existed is false. The word "deteriorate" implies that the stars are being destroyed. This is not the case. Hopefully you know some science and know that matter and energy are one and the same, and that neither matter nor energy can be created or destroyed. "

Just to correct a false assumption matter and energy are not one and the same. Matter is potential energy. if you assume a closed universe then the energy changes and is not lost. Deteriorate is the correct word for the stars and all else, it is observable,

Bumble Bee Tuna
"The stars are not being destroyed, they are merely changing states. Their matter/energy is remaining constant. That constancy actually does imply that the stars indeed, in some form or another, have always existed and always will exist.
I don't believe i said destroyed. the matter and energy are not a constant within the star.Deteriorate is a good word to describe what happens to them. just as the nuts and bolts on your car fall off over time. The parts may well be all over the road but your car is deteriorating, and unless more energy is added back into your car or a star it will fall a part.
This is not observable for stars and not to some cars either.

Bumble Bee Tuna
"BTW, wtf is this "law of non-contradiction" that you speak of? Self-created is certainly a silly possibility, but I don't think such a law exists, so don't try to make yourself sound like you're using science (by using words like "law") when in fact you are just posting your own opinion."

I am sorry. The law of non-contradiction means that if one thing is true than the opposite can not be true at the same time. It is a law in the field of logic. It is only a truism else where.

Bumble Bee Tuna
"I'm glad I could clear up the mistake in your logic, because since you are a creature of logic, surely now you will go back to not believing in a god."

I'm glad I could clear up the mistakes you had. Know you only must decide who your God is.
Yourself, a personal favorite for most, other creation,tree or rock,or the God of Abram, Isaac and Jacob.

-B</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

 

[jet]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Arkane:
<strong>Jet, the post about Yavarice talkign about god not Speaking to men openly... You replied he still does.. Please explain what you mean, for I, an Athiest, have never heard his voice, nor have any of my Christian friends... Yes, I do have Christian friends, but they DONT try to CONVERT people every time they meet some different then them. Jet.

Please explain about the talking God, Jet... I see that you've had head injuries in the past.. which may explain the (god) voices in your head?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok u need to be quiet with that last statement you jsut said well anyway God does still talk to his creations the reason your "christian" friends haven't heard Him speak before is because they don't know what his voice sounds like. Many other Christians have heard God speak to them and when he does speak it's something to licten to as for me i had to learn the hard way... have you ever heard of a conscience that's God telling you to go the right way now i didn't listen to my conscience a.k.a. God, this one day i skipped school to go to walmart, i had already went in the morning because i had a test to take, then i went a second time but something was urging me to go back to school but i was to stubborn to listen so then i got caught at walmart by BOTH of my parents. I warn everybody here LISTEN TO YOUR CONSCIENCE Your conscience is God

OH and Bee i didn't say anything your just mad that i came back with acomeback and i'll say it again God is a spirit that has been here forever the universe is his creation

 

[drb]

Sorry for the spelling and the errors in my last post.
The preview didn't work for some reason and I got in a hurry.
I'm sure you can still understand.
If not i wiil make clear later. pardon me please.

 

[Killer_Batch]

I go to church by force but i dont belive in him. I think there is no god because someone couldve just made that up to be a big person. Another reason is there is no real proof with other gods like the egyptians or the greeks. but i guese well never know.

 

[Bumble Bee Tuna]

Your lack of understanding of physics is showing, though I can't blame you. You certainly sound like you are far too young to ever have been taught physics.

Mass and Energy are the same thing, different forms. I'm sure you've heard the famous equation, e = mc^2. The e stands for energy, m for mass, and c for speed of light. There is more to the equation if the particle is moving at relativistic speeds, with the Lorentz transformation, but this equation is the essential part. Mass and energy can both be measured in the same units, meV. electron-volts, or something along those lines. They are equal. The sum of all the matter and all the energy in the universe is and always has been equal. When a star "deteriorates", the foolish eye concludes that it is losing matter/energy. In fact the matter and energy are just moved to another part of the universe. So while the individual star may be deteriorating, the universe as a whole is still constant, just as it always has been. This is where your logic goes wrong, and hopefully if I haven't convinced you, you will take a physics course, and learn the things I just told you.

As for you, jet, thank you for clearing it up for me. I always had a nagging doubt that because Christians "heard" God's voice, that could be proof. Thank you for clearing up that it is just another natural occurence that you attribute to supernatural means. Your conscience is not "God", it is YOU. And my conscience has certainly been wrong, which isn't very fitting for an omnipotent being anyway.

-B