A Cruel And Harsh Fate....

[GoldShadow]

gnosis, you vegan sympathizer. I'm coming to Idaho to hunt you down. You and your potatoes!

 

[AltF4]

Stop Vegetable Cruelty!!!!

What, you think that just because they don't have mouths to scream from that means they don't feel pain?

GoldShadow: Oh? I had no idea that was relatively well known. ****, plagiarizing ******* friend...

 

[GoldShadow]

AltF4 you should start PETV: People for the Ethical Treatment of Vegetables.

Also, the "for every animal you don't eat..." Maddox page:
http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=sponsor

 

[Falco&Victory]

Save the forest, kill the cows! Cows are wasting our oxygen source, while plants are feeding it. If you let the cows and chickens and pigs live, then they'll drain oxygen out of the air, and you'll be responsible for the most massive animal death ever.
Fdv pretty much summed up the irony of veganism(vegaism? vegananism), then AltF4 and Goldshadow finished it off.

After reading this topic I just ate all the chicken out of last night's stir-fry and left the veggies. So basically by making this thread you've killed animals. Good for you, saveour planet.

 

[C@sH Mooney]

jesus christ...

maddox is my savior...wow O_O

edit:yeah fdv altf4 and gold shadow did make good points

 

[T0MMY]

I've read so much about this debate I've grown tired of it.
A huge group of hate mongers try to drag out the vegetarians and throw a witch hunt. In this digital age witch hunt they are armed with poor spelling/grammar instead of torches and pitchforks. Then they somehow expect us to take their side.
Someone will say "don't be so mean."
They'll be called a witch, I mean, a vegan, which most of the time they are not.
Someone else will quote Maddox and become a failure to think freely because of it.
And I provide information on why vegetarianism helps economics, ecology, health, and provide other information such as well known vegetarians ranging from Newton to Paul McCartney.

Then nobody will budge from their views, but maybe some of us would get out some of that pent up tension by burning some witches.

I don't eat animal products. I've become healthier since I cut out the meat and as a bonus I don't have any guilt about eating meat for any of the many reasons associated with it. And more importantly, I don't care if you do OR don't. Quit bothering everyone about what they should do and just make yourself an example.

 

[T0MMY]

Let me introduce you to a little something called the Food Chain:

Actually, this just caught my eye.
I think he was saying that humans eat everything.
But really looking at that picture is funny because the image of the human looks scared to death. Like "OMG I AM GONNA GET EATEN/TRAMPLED/POISONED BY ALL THESE THINGS!"

 

[Falco&Victory]

I've read so much about this debate I've grown tired of it.
A huge group of hate mongers try to drag out the vegetarians and throw a witch hunt. In this digital age witch hunt they are armed with poor spelling/grammar instead of torches and pitchforks. Then they somehow expect us to take their side.
Someone will say "don't be so mean."
They'll be called a witch, I mean, a vegan, which most of the time they are not.
Someone else will quote Maddox and become a failure to think freely because of it.
And I provide information on why vegetarianism helps economics, ecology, health, and provide other information such as well known vegetarians ranging from Newton to Paul McCartney.

Then nobody will budge from their views, but maybe some of us would get out some of that pent up tension by burning some witches.

I don't eat animal products. I've become healthier since I cut out the meat and as a bonus I don't have any guilt about eating meat for any of the many reasons associated with it. And more importantly, I don't care if you do OR don't. Quit bothering everyone about what they should do and just make yourself an example.

Great points, but too much flame.
Vegetarians just have better health habits, eating less meat doesn't exactly make you healthier.

 

[T0MMY]

Great points, but too much flame.
Vegetarians just have better health habits, eating less meat doesn't exactly make you healthier.

I agree that as a whole, vegetarians tend to have healthier habits than their non-vegetarian humans.
However, it is simply your opinion "eating less meat doesn't exactly make you healthier" versus a solid scientific evidence saying otherwise.

Afterall, people who develop healthy lifestyles gravitate towards vegetarianism, meaning they believe it to be a healthier lifestyle. It's not just coincidence they happen to be born a vegetarian or something.

Also, I attest to my health improvements since becoming vegan, and that's good enough for me, and it is me that I care about

 

[GoldShadow]

Vegetarians have a harder time getting protein and various nutrients and vitamins. Vegetarianism is not in itself any healthier than a normal diet; I'm not sure where you're getting the "people who develop healthy lifestyles gravitate towards vegetarianism" idea.

Are there vegetarians with healthy lifestyles? Yes. Are there meat-eaters with healthy lifestyles? Yes.

The only reason I could see why someone would become vegetarian or vegan to become healthier is if they just can't control what they eat, or just feel obliged to indulge themselves whenever they see food they like. Being a vegetarian or a vegan simply makes them think twice before eating something; so they tend to eat less (and as a result, healthy). Which is what I mean by "vegetarianism is not in itself healthier" than eating meat.


Either way T0MMY, if it's working for you, then that's great. In the long run, that really is all that matters.

 

[Zink]

Yo guys I'm gonna make a group called PETP, People for the Ethical Treatment of People. We go around helping poor people and collecting donations instead of whining about animal rights.
I'm not gonna say it's a non issue but it's rediculous to get so worked up about something like this, especially to go far enough to insinuate the vegan lifestyle is inherently healthier than the diet humans have been using for quite a while now. Formal protest is one thing, badgering and annoying people is quite another.

 

[T0MMY]

Vegetarians have a harder time getting protein and various nutrients and vitamins.

Actually, Vegans get more than enough proteins. Vegetarians get more still. And those who eat meat statistically get too much. Practically everything anyone eats is made up of proteins, even celery. The old protein argument ended in the 1970's, but people who are uninformed still parade around thinking it's correct.

It really doesn't take any time thinking about what to eat, so it doesn't make vegetarians eat any less. I've never seen anyone spend an entire day deciding if they could or could not eat any soup, no matter what eating habits they have.

Yo guys I'm gonna make a group called PETP, People for the Ethical Treatment of People.

That's actually an interesting proposal. People need to treat people with respect, and, personally, I don't see why anyone would seperate the world into what we can and cannot respect--people, animals, plants, etc. Cruelty is cruelty and it eventually comes back to hurt us.

 

[psicicle]

erm, I'm not sure that celery has much protein. I would have thought that veggies are mostly carbohydrates or something. Although I don't really know.

Aha I found it: http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/nutrientfull.php?id=11143

Celery had .75 grams of protein per 100 grams of celery, .75%.

So I don't think you would be able to survive on celery alone.

By the way, are vegetarians supposed to exclude animal oil from their diet too?

 

[GoldShadow]

Actually, Vegans get more than enough proteins. Vegetarians get more still. And those who eat meat statistically get too much. Practically everything anyone eats is made up of proteins, even celery. The old protein argument ended in the 1970's, but people who are uninformed still parade around thinking it's correct.

It really doesn't take any time thinking about what to eat, so it doesn't make vegetarians eat any less. I've never seen anyone spend an entire day deciding if they could or could not eat any soup, no matter what eating habits they have.

Please lose the attitude, the reductio ad absurdium exaggerations, and the ad hominem attacks. Everyone, when debating with/responding to somebody on the internet, has a tendency to do these things. They only help create hostility and start flame wars.

Anyway, what you've said is simply not true. Vegans don't get "more than enough" protein, or other nutrients. The fact is, vegans cut out of their diet most things which contain them.

Meat, eggs, and dairy are great sources of protein; lacto-ovo vegetarians can get them from the two latter sources, but vegans cannot. Vegans must get it from lentils, grains, soy, legumes, etc. I hope you'll agree with me when I say that these do not contain a lot of protein and a vegan must eat more of it to get an adequate amount.
I'm not saying that vegans/vegetarians can't get protein and other nutrients, I'm saying it's harder for them to get it. There are also several other vitamins, minerals, and nutrients that vegans and vegetarians must work harder to get.

A quote from the Mayo Clinic's website on vegan and vegetarian diets:
"The more restrictive a diet is, the more difficult it is to get all the nutrients your body needs. A vegan diet, for example, eliminates food sources of vitamin B-12, as well as milk products, which are a good source of calcium. Other nutrients, such as iron and zinc, are available in a meatless diet, but you need to make an extra effort to ensure they're in yours."
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/vegetarian-diet/HQ01596

It really doesn't take any time thinking about what to eat, so it doesn't make vegetarians eat any less. I've never seen anyone spend an entire day deciding if they could or could not eat any soup, no matter what eating habits they have.

Here you're twisting my words. I did not say they spend time thinking about what to eat, or that they will take all day deciding what to eat. I said they'll think twice.

For example, after one of my friends went vegan, it took me a little while to get used to his new eating habits, and conversations such as the following took place:
Me: "Hey, I just got a bag of M&Ms... you want some?"
Friend: "No thanks, I can't have milk chocolate."

or

Me: "Those mashed potatoes look pretty good, I think I'll take some."
Friend: "Ah, yeah, but it's got little bits of beef in it."


As a result of the restrictions placed on them by the vegan diet, vegans simply don't have as many options on average as the rest of us. That is what I was trying to get at.

 

[T0MMY]

erm, I'm not sure that celery has much protein. I would have thought that veggies are mostly carbohydrates or something. Although I don't really know.

Aha I found it: http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/nutrientfull.php?id=11143

Celery had .75 grams of protein per 100 grams of celery, .75%.

So I don't think you would be able to survive on celery alone.

By the way, are vegetarians supposed to exclude animal oil from their diet too?

The point wasn't that celery is enough to sustain yourself on, it was that practically everything you would eat has protein. The protein argument isn't debated anymore except by people who have no better way of saying vegetarianism is unhealthy, which it isn't, so it's going to be bound to failure.
I would say vegetarians would exclude animal oil from their diet. Olive oil, flax oil, borrage oil, and plenty of other oils all have better essential fatty acids in them anyway.

Please lose the attitude, the reductio ad absurdium exaggerations, and the ad hominem attacks. Everyone, when debating with/responding to somebody on the internet, has a tendency to do these things. They only help create hostility and start flame wars.

Sorry, that's not attitude, it's personality. Using Latin phrases doesn't make you seem intelligent either, so you should lose that.

Anyway, what you've said is simply not true. Vegans don't get "more than enough" protein, or other nutrients. The fact is, vegans cut out of their diet most things which contain them.

Really? Where did you find these statistics? I read about it, and, additionally, can attest for myself that I get plenty of protein. There are plenty of books and internet sources that will show you statistically vegans get plenty of proteins. I myself have nothing to worry about in that regards. (see celery argument above for more information why)
You will also find ailments linked to consumption of too much protein, which would worry me if I was eating a steak for dinner every night instead of a nice curry.

Meat, eggs, and dairy are great sources of protein; lacto-ovo vegetarians can get them from the two latter sources, but vegans cannot. Vegans must get it from lentils, grains, soy, legumes, etc. I hope you'll agree with me when I say that these do not contain a lot of protein and a vegan must eat more of it to get an adequate amount.

No, I don't agree with you.
Some of the foods you listed are considered high-protein foods.

I'm not saying that vegans/vegetarians can't get protein and other nutrients, I'm saying it's harder for them to get it. There are also several other vitamins, minerals, and nutrients that vegans and vegetarians must work harder to get.

It's actually more work to raise a cow by growing a lot of vegetatian, go through the butchering process, and then the long process of cooking the cow rather than eat an ear of corn.

A quote from the Mayo Clinic's website on vegan and vegetarian diets:
"The more restrictive a diet is, the more difficult it is to get all the nutrients your body needs. A vegan diet, for example, eliminates food sources of vitamin B-12, as well as milk products, which are a good source of calcium. Other nutrients, such as iron and zinc, are available in a meatless diet, but you need to make an extra effort to ensure they're in yours."
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/vegetarian-diet/HQ01596

Doctors are some of the worst people to ask about nutrition. They know only basic, and rather outdated knowledge on nutrition as they are not formally trained to study such areas of school. This is why there exists nutrtionists, dieticians, and other complimentary/alternative physicians. However, that would just be an opinion, but the statement you quoted still contradicts that B-12, calcium, iron, and zinc are all found in vegan diets (very easily, might I add).

Here you're twisting my words. I did not say they spend time thinking about what to eat, or that they will take all day deciding what to eat. I said they'll think twice.

For example, after one of my friends went vegan, it took me a little while to get used to his new eating habits, and conversations such as the following took place:
Me: "Hey, I just got a bag of M&Ms... you want some?"
Friend: "No thanks, I can't have milk chocolate."

I didn't twist your words, you were unclear.
And not eating M&M's is not putting your friend's health in danger. I am quite sure of this.

"Nothing will benefit human health and increase chances of survival for life on earth as much as the evolution to a vegetarian diet." -Albert Einstein

 

[Zombie Lucille Ball]

I've read so much about this debate I've grown tired of it.
A huge group of hate mongers try to drag out the vegetarians and throw a witch hunt. In this digital age witch hunt they are armed with poor spelling/grammar instead of torches and pitchforks. Then they somehow expect us to take their side.
Someone will say "don't be so mean."
They'll be called a witch, I mean, a vegan, which most of the time they are not.
Someone else will quote Maddox and become a failure to think freely because of it.
And I provide information on why vegetarianism helps economics, ecology, health, and provide other information such as well known vegetarians ranging from Newton to Paul McCartney.

Then nobody will budge from their views, but maybe some of us would get out some of that pent up tension by burning some witches.

I don't eat animal products. I've become healthier since I cut out the meat and as a bonus I don't have any guilt about eating meat for any of the many reasons associated with it. And more importantly, I don't care if you do OR don't. Quit bothering everyone about what they should do and just make yourself an example.

Quoted For ****ing Truth.

T0MMY is now my hero. Thanks for bringing some logic and thought into a thread that started with "save a cow eat a vegetarian".

 

[C@sH Mooney]

lol

glad to see this topic is getting bigger

 

[Red Exodus]

Screw PETA. Next they'll be telling us what to drink. Imagine what will happen to farmers if this happens. Stupid PETA, meat is good.

 

[Falco&Victory]

T0mmy, really there is no point between eating no meat makes you healthier. The fact is that there are just as many healthy omnivores as herbivores among humans. I don't over-indulge on meat, I eat the daily amount and I don't get anything that's been processed into something completely different looking. Unless you're saying that eating meat makes you less healthy than your argument is void. And yes, many vegetarians have problem with protein intake.

 

[Zink]

There's a reason I eat meat. Plenty, in fact. Chief among them being, I am not going to radically alter my diet for a mainly symbolic protest against a concept I don't care about. Also, meat is good. Yummy. Not only that, but the preparation of meat foods can easily be a social activity. You don't invite people over to grill celery and carrots.

 

[GoldShadow]

I'm going to split my response into two posts...Here's number one.

First off I just want you to know that I don't have a vendetta against you or anything (T0MMY), and I'll try to avoid any further hostility... my apologies if I come off as bitter or angry. It's just that I don't like the spread of misinformation. (as you may be able to tell from the Interesting Facts thread... which I really should try to find time to post in again)
The way I like to think of it is: "If I met this person in real life, would I be just as hostile to them? Would I dislike them before I even got to know them because we disagreed on the internet?" So I try to minimize hostility between me and people I disagree with. I don't like being on bad terms with people.

Regarding the latin phrases, there are a bunch of commonly used latin phrases used to describe certain things. Among them are "de jure", "de facto", "ad hominem", "a priori", "ad absurdum", "caveat emptor", etc. These are well-known phrases. Please do not insult me or my intellect because of my vocabulary.

Doctors are some of the worst people to ask about nutrition.

First of all, that's not true. Secondly, if you were referring to my quoting the Mayo Clinic... it's not relevant to say "doctors are the worst people to ask about nutrition" even if they really were the worst people to ask about nutrition (which they're not). The Mayo Clinic, like other famous and prestigious research institutions, is exactly that: a research institution. It is a place where doctors, scientists, and medical scientists perform research. It is like me quoting, say, Harvard or Washington University at STL or the UConn Health Center and being told that it's not relevant because "they don't know about nutrition".

And not eating M&M's is not putting your friend's health in danger. I am quite sure of this.

Well of course; my point was that these things add up. Too much chocolate and sugar, or for that matter, overnourishment, are bad for you.

 

[GoldShadow]

No, I don't agree with you.
Some of the foods you listed are considered high-protein foods.

A 99-gram serving of cooked lentils contains about 9g of protein; less than 10% by mass. An extra lean hamburger, weighing 170g, contains 48.6g of protein, or almost 30% protein by mass. A roasted chicken is about 25% protein by mass. Soy milk is less than 3% protein by mass. Cooked split peas are 8.3% protein by mass. Grains tend to be 5-10% protein by mass. A cooked ear of corn? Less than 3.4% protein by mass.

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/protein.html

You will also find ailments linked to consumption of too much protein.

Yes, there are ailments caused by too much protein. Because it would be outright wrong to say that a vegetarian/vegan diet has no advantages, I will say that this is true.
Too much protein does have bad effects. Digesting it releases acids neutralized by calcium carbonates; this is taken from bone. A high protein diet followed for a long period of time can weaken bone, making fractures more likely.
High amounts of animal-derived protein have been linked with cardiovascular disease; some claim links to cancer, but this has not yet been consistently shown.

One interesting study shows that low-protein diets were effective in delaying the onset of end stage renal failure. Of course, this just means that people who are already terminally ill (due to kidney failure) could delay the end stage of the disease by reducing how much protein they consumed.
http://medind.nic.in/iav/t02/i3/iavt02i3p73.pdf

That said, there are also many ailments caused by lack of protein; or for that matter, lack of certain nutrients. Deficiencies in any form are bad; I think everyone can agree on this point. The fact is, vegan and vegetarian diets are generally more nutrient-deficient than an all-around omnivoric diet. I use the word "fact" carefully, as some of you may already know!

Vegans and ovo-vegetarians have low vitamin D and calcium intake. This can lead to osteoporosis later in life. Vegetarians are also at higher risk for iron-deficiency anemia, not just because of the exclusion of animal products but also the high fiber content of soy protein, bran, and fiber. The fiber inhibits iron absorption. Protein deficiency can lead to loss of hair and muscle mass.
http://www.vanderbilt.edu/AnS/psychology/health_psychology/vegpage.html

Vegans face the risk of inadequate vitamin and mineral levels. Vitamin B12 deficiencies are found in vegans, and this deficiency can lead to irreversible nerve deterioration.
http://www.fda.gov./bbs/topics/CONSUMER/CON00138.html

In a study regarding the relationship between vegetarianism/non-vegetarianism and bone density, vegetarians were found to have a lower average bone density.

http://www.vanderbilt.edu/AnS/psychology/health_psychology/vegpage.html

Plants contain nonheme iron. As a result, even if a vegetarian/vegan is getting high or adequate amounts of iron, it is not absorbed as well by their bodies as iron from animal sources.

http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/adapaper.htm

A 2003 study showed that 25% of vegetarians and 80% of vegans suffer from iodine deficiency, vs. 9% for non-vegetarians.

http://content.karger.com/ProdukteDB/produkte.asp?Doi=70483
http://content.karger.com/ProdukteD...oduktNr=223977&Ausgabe=229175&ArtikelNr=70483

Vegetarians were also found to be more susceptible to tuberculosis:
"The incidence of tuberculosis in vegetarians was 133 in 1000 and that in subjects on mixed diets 48 in 1000."
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1141584

Another study found that vegetarians had significantly less vitamin B1 and B6 than non-vegetarians. 24% of vegetarians also had riboflavin deficiency... but in fairness, 22% of non-vegetarians also had riboflavin deficiency. I bring this up to show that in some regards, vegetarianism is not necessarily better than omnivorism; sometimes, it doesn't make any difference.

http://grande.nal.usda.gov/ibids/index.php?mode2=detail&origin=ibids_references&therow=618219

In patients with renal nephropathy (kidney failure) due to diabetes (keep in mind that these are all patients with the same condition; so it controls for alterations in normal vs. pathologic condition), incidence of microalbuminuria was 18.1% in vegetarians vs. 21.2% in non-vegetarians.
Incidence of proteinuria in vegetarians was 25.8% versus 23.6% in non-vegetarians.
Basically, these percentages are for those people that had too much protein in their blood and urine. As you can see, it was not too different between the vegetarians and non-vegetarians.

http://medind.nic.in/iav/t02/i3/iavt02i3p73.pdf


Now I could go on all day with studies showing the disadvantages or nonadvantages of vegetarianism and veganism.

But the fact is, veganism/vegetarianism IS NOT A BAD DIET. That's not at all what I've been trying to say. It can be a very healthy diet. NON-VEGETARIANISM is NOT A BETTER DIET. If you eat too much meat, it can be unhealthy. But if you control what you eat, if you eat healthy, then it too can be a good diet.

The truth is, there are healthy vegetarian/vegan diets and healthy omnivoric diets. There are unhealthy vegetarian/vegan diets and unhealthy omnivoric diets. Both have their advantages and disadvantages. That is the lesson we all need to take home.

 

[Zombie Lucille Ball]

Screw PETA. Next they'll be telling us what to drink. Imagine what will happen to farmers if this happens. Stupid PETA, meat is good.

thanks for adding so much to the conversation.

But the fact is, veganism/vegetarianism IS NOT A BAD DIET. That's not at all what I've been trying to say. It can be a very healthy diet. NON-VEGETARIANISM is NOT A BETTER DIET. If you eat too much meat, it can be unhealthy. But if you control what you eat, if you eat healthy, then it too can be a good diet.

If that's your point then why the hell did you just spend a gigantic post describing why it was a bad diet.
I'm sure I could find just as many links showing connections between red meat and health problems.

 

[GoldShadow]

Oh come on... I thought this would be self-explanatory.

I did that to show that vegetarianism has disadvantages to it as well, and it's not better than a normal diet like some people say. I even mentioned that there are links between red meat and health problems.

I did it to show that there are a lot of problems with a vegan/vegetarian diet too. In my opinion, too many problems to justify avoiding meat for health reasons. If you want to avoid it for moral or religious reasons, that's a different story.

That's why.

There is no perfect diet or perfect lifestyle; you have to make sacrifices to stay healthy no matter what kind of eater you are.

 

[Lixivium]

Sorry, that's not attitude, it's personality. Using Latin phrases doesn't make you seem intelligent either, so you should lose that.

He's not using Latin phrases to sound smart, he's using Latin phrases because they're appropriate. It's not Goldshadow's fault you don't know what they mean.

Really? Where did you find these statistics? I read about it, and, additionally, can attest for myself that I get plenty of protein. There are plenty of books and internet sources that will show you statistically vegans get plenty of proteins. I myself have nothing to worry about in that regards. (see celery argument above for more information why)

The issue is not pure amount of protein but also types of protein found in foods. Many vegetables are limited in one or more types of essential amino acids. For example, legumes are considered a relatively high protein plant, but they lack tryptophan:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essential_amino_acid

You CAN obtain all your essential amino acids through a purely vegetarian diet, but it takes careful planning, it's NOT something as simple as saying "I'm going to stop eating all the meat I normally eat."

You will also find ailments linked to consumption of too much protein, which would worry me if I was eating a steak for dinner every night instead of a nice curry.

Nice strawman, can I borrow it for Halloween? Eating meat != having a steak for dinner every night.

It's actually more work to raise a cow by growing a lot of vegetatian, go through the butchering process, and then the long process of cooking the cow rather than eat an ear of corn.

That's not he was saying. The point is that it's a lot easier for a human to obtain those same proteins by eating a cow vs. eating corn.

Doctors are some of the worst people to ask about nutrition. They know only basic, and rather outdated knowledge on nutrition as they are not formally trained to study such areas of school. This is why there exists nutrtionists, dieticians, and other complimentary/alternative physicians.

And what makes you think the Mayo Clinic doesn't employ any nutritionists and dieticians? I think you're a bit too eager to dismiss "mainstream" medicine.

Finally, the one point you cannot argue, is that meat is DELICIOUS.

 

[Falco&Victory]

Is everyone here but Goldshadow an idiot? Seriously people, BOTH DIETS ARE HEALTHY IF USED RIGHT!
The fact is if you don't both diets have the potential to give you 100% of your daily value of whatever. They're just obtained in different ways. So, there, everyone who chose a side was wrong.

 

[C@sH Mooney]

Falco&Victory please dont flame in my thread

thank you

 

[GoldShadow]

Not only that, but the preparation of meat foods can easily be a social activity. You don't invite people over to grill celery and carrots.

Indeed!

Also, meat is good. Yummy.

QFT

Finally, the one point you cannot argue, is that meat is DELICIOUS.

QFT x 2.

 

[Zombie Lucille Ball]

If you gotta eat meat do what you gotta do but I would ask please think about where and who you buy it from. Support local farms. Support organic farms.

 

[Falco&Victory]

Almost every other person who's argued with me this week has come out banned

And god made cows for humans to eat, but I won't make this a religious argument.

 

[Red Exodus]

thanks for adding so much to the conversation.

Your welcome.


I don't really see what the fuss is. PETA can eat their greens, everyone else can eat what ever the hell they want so long as it isn't protected [by law] .

I just hate when people want to stuff ideas down your throat [literally]. So much for good old fashioned liberty.

 

[psicicle]

is eating dogs outlawed anywhere? I personally think it is fine. Although I wouldn't eat dog because of cultural reasons.

We should be eating more dogs! And cats! Unless they are extremely unhealthy for whatever reason.

 

[Red Exodus]

Sounds like a fine idea to me. I wonder what a dog and cat farm would look like.

 

[psicicle]

It would really solve those problems about dogs being left in the pound or abandoned and stuff that I keep hearing about.

 

[Y34HDUD3!!!]

I love animals. In my life I have always tried to treat them well.

But face it. It's just natural that these things happen. And I bet a vast majority of the ranches/other aren't like that.

Meat is tasty.