A counterpoint to the SSBB being simplified... and more

[C00P]

I am surprised at the number of people seeing this game being simplified and more accessible to others. It was at E3 about two years ago (When it was still badass goodness) and Nintendo did their first full out demonstration of the Wii in front of an audience. It was Shigeru Miyamoto against a contest winner (Uber Nerd) and they showed off the Wii's capabilities through a game of Wii tennis.

After the match was played out Reggie Fils-Aime continued on his Key-note speech. He discussed how accessible they were designing the Wii for everyone. The line that sold me on the Wii as I'm sure many other was when he talked about Mario Galaxy and Super Smash Bros. He said that as well as casual gamers they were also targeting the HARDCORE GAMERS. He referenced Mario and Smash Bros. as both being designed with us hardcore in mind.

I just got through galaxy... played as Luigi and am happy to say what a throwback that game was hardcore (although a touch easy). The fact that the Gamecube controller was one of the first announcements for Brawl tells me that Reggie's words were true. With Galaxy being the game it was... I also believe in Reggie's words more.

So to everyone that doubts this game being for the hardcore, or made to be accessible to everyone. I garuntee it will be accessible on the surface... that is how all SSB have been. But as for unlocking characters and who will be in it.

NINTENDO KNOWS PEOPLE!!!

They screwed up a few times but have succeeded many more times. This game is fulfilling its potential slowly. The only thing that fuels these debates as to what this game will offer is the trickles of news that flow.

So little has been leaked... all their is is speculation so before people get their panties in a bunch chill out and let the info come to us.

Unless we have access to cyber ninjas who can get more info... I will pay them properly... enquire within:D

- C00P

 

[2nd Stamp]

I also believe in Reggie's words more.

He did say December 3rd though.

But yeah, I think you make a solid point. Nintendo is making a fan game with Brawl, and ofcourse they aim it at Melee players, wich are Hardcore gamers.

 

[Gomolka]

He did say December 3rd though.

Haha, yeah true. Mario Galaxy was really fun and I actually logged a lot of playtime beating it, hopefully SSBB will be a good "hardcore game" too.

 

[DraginHikari]

He did say December 3rd though.

But yeah, I think you make a solid point. Nintendo is making a fan game with Brawl, and ofcourse they aim it at Melee players, wich are Hardcore gamers.

I disagree in some views, Smash seems to be like by a much broader audiance then just the hardcore gamers. Before anyone assumes I'm bashing hardcore that's not what I mean.

In all the years Melee was out, it was one of those games everyone wanted at one point or another. Everyone can play Smash and at least enjoy it even with the basics, even if it is the hardcore player that takes it up a notch.

Just the other day, I pulled out some old games from the backroom at the wal-mart I work at to fill the empty spaces that had, which included 4 copies of Melee. Two kids around the ages of like 7 and 9 saw me take those out and they went in a frenzy because the game was just that fun according to them, I sold two of the four copies in that instant XD

Smash comes off as a mix between a common party game and something a hardcore gamer can take to the next level. Appealing to one side or another alone would be too much of a waste...

 

[Jumpinjahosafa]

The only reason people believe that the game is going towards casuals is because wavedashing was taken out...

They fail to realize that there has already been new techniques discovered, all from people who only got 2 consecutive minutes to play..

I'm 100% positive tons of new techniques will be discovered that will separate casuals from pros.

 

[Psydon]

The only reason people believe that the game is going towards casuals is because wavedashing was taken out...

They fail to realize that there has already been new techniques discovered, all from people who only got 2 consecutive minutes to play..

I'm 100% positive tons of new techniques will be discovered that will separate casuals from pros.

Actually, there are other reasons.

There's a good discussion in here:

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=129998

You should've added your points to that thread, C00P. ><

 

[C00P]

Actually, there are other reasons.

There's a good discussion in here:

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=129998

You should've added your points to that thread, C00P. ><

I know I know... I just see how many posts other than that specific one discuss brawl going down the pooper in terms on serious gameplay. That post inspired this one... but I want to know peoples thoughts on the other side of the table. Not just in response to that one idea.

 

[Jumpinjahosafa]

Actually, there are other reasons.

There's a good discussion in here:

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=129998

You should've added your points to that thread, C00P. ><

Easier =/= less depth. Melee was pretty easy to pick up to play, but extremely deep.

 

[Psydon]

Well, not everyone in that topic thinks that Brawl is being simplified. There are arguments for both sides.

But anyway, I agree with you. A lot of people have lost faith in Nintendo given what we've seen, but I know that they're not stupid. They know what they're doing, and Sakurai knows what he's doing. Even if Brawl is made a tad easier and more accessible to new players, it'll still be as deep as before, and certainly not some waste-of-your-money kiddie game.

 

[DraginHikari]

The only reason people believe that the game is going towards casuals is because wavedashing was taken out...

They fail to realize that there has already been new techniques discovered, all from people who only got 2 consecutive minutes to play..

I'm 100% positive tons of new techniques will be discovered that will separate casuals from pros.

Eh... from my understanding the only reason Wavedashing was removed was because they're using a different physics enigne...

 

[Psydon]

Easier =/= less depth. Melee was pretty easy to pick up to play, but extremely deep.

Easy to pick up and play = Accessibility.

Easy to play at higher levels of play = Easy.

Plenty of gameplay possibilities and options = Depth.

More options = more depth.

More depth = more complexity.

More complexity = greater challenge to play at higher levels of play.

Challenging to play at higher levels of play =/= Easy.

So indeed, an easier fighting game is a fighting game with less depth to it than its predecessor.

 

[Psydon]

Eh... from my understanding the only reason Wavedashing was removed was because they're using a different physics enigne...

Nah. It all has to do with the new airdodge. With the new airdodge, you can't control where you go; it's just an animation and a few invincibility frames. Also, if you were to somehow airdodge into the ground you'd just land. Those two elements prohibit wavedashing from being possible.

 

[Jumpinjahosafa]

Easy to pick up and play = Accessibility.

Easy to play at higher levels of play = Easy.

Plenty of gameplay possibilities and options = Depth.

More options = more depth.

More depth = more complexity.

More complexity = greater challenge to play at higher levels of play.

Challenging to play at higher levels of play =/= Easy.

So indeed, an easier fighting game is a fighting game with less depth to it than its predecessor.

You contradicted yourself.

Thats almost exactly how melee is..

Anybody can beat all of melee's modes.. that doesnt make you pro. In fact you're stilll very far from pro.

 

[NES n00b]

LOL, not what he meant at all. Unless you think that higher levels of play = beating all of Melee's modes. XD

Easy to pick up and play is different then a game that is still easy to pick up at its highest levels. It would be like Mortal Kombat or DBZ fighting games where it is easy to pick up and not much to learn. =\

I don't think it would ever be that bad, but it could be worse than Melee.

 

[KazenoZ]

Nah. It all has to do with the new airdodge. With the new airdodge, you can't control where you go; it's just an animation and a few invincibility frames. Also, if you were to somehow airdodge into the ground you'd just land. Those two elements prohibit wavedashing from being possible.

No dude, it wasn't accomplished because of multipile reasons, not just the new air dodge.
If you noticed, in melee, every time you landed in an angle you'd a little slide, though, to notice that completely, you would probably need to slow the game a bit in training mode, my best example of that would be Mario/Luigi shorthopping backwards(No airdodge), you would see them slide a really tiny distance that way, and there would be a bit of lag.
The other factor, is the sliding motion of the airdodge, that's why you need to time it just right for the wavedash to work properly, those are the 2 reasons of a wavedash to be possible.

Now why it's not in Brawl, first, just like Smash64, the sliding landing is not present by what I see, so no move at all can push you to slide after you land, which leads to thinking it might not be the engine change who caused the air dodge to not help, even though that's a bit unlikely, the last reason would be the high framerate in this game, as you can see from the demo, character movement, walking, heck, even breathing, is noticeable with the new frame rate, the game is using alot more frames per move(Speculations), if the wavedash was possible, that would probably not affect it, but it's just that from 4 days of roughly 2 minutes of play per match, the average player wouldn't have gotten enough time to get down the new timing for techniques, I would even dare say that it was possible for it to even be part of the demo, even if no one found it, it might have been done by a different technique, or maybe it is just the new frame rate, at any rate, I wouldn't strike wavedashing out of this game just yet.

Just a last note on this though, the last senctence is likely completely wrong if the landing slide really is out in this game, that's the most important part of the dash.

 

[SirroMinus1]

Yea i agree i dont think this game is being simplified. in the end the noobs gots no chance.

 

[A New England Winter]

Easy to pick up and play = Accessibility.

Easy to play at higher levels of play = Easy.

Plenty of gameplay possibilities and options = Depth.

More options = more depth.

More depth = more complexity.

More complexity = greater challenge to play at higher levels of play.

Challenging to play at higher levels of play =/= Easy.

So indeed, an easier fighting game is a fighting game with less depth to it than its predecessor.

When was this ever said? Who ever said the difficulty of this game would be easy even at higher levels? This is bullsh*t, and you know it, because it's totally unfounded.

If anything, it goes:

Easy to get in to = Accessibility

Accessibility = genuine interest in the game

genuine interest = learning the more complex parts of the game

learning those = playing the game more often

playing more = having more fun

 

[Hippochinfat]

We lose wavedashing and gain a plethora of other teqniches. The combat will be ALOT deeper but the overgame will be..well...OVER 9000 tims deeper then melee what with subspace, stage builder and all.

 

[PyroRyuken]

A lot of people find it simplified because of the removal of some advanced techniques. I have freinds who like that since they didn't like wavedahsing or could not do it themselves. Still, there are many more techniques we have yet to find on brawl after it is out.

 

[Ban Heim]

How was SMG hardcore? The only thing "hardcore" about it is the fact that it's a Mario game (which used to be "hardcore" back in the day). SMG was way too easy. It wasn't aimed at anyone other than the casual gamers who used to play Mario when they were younger (you can tell by the difficulty and the nostalgia they tried to bring with the title).

I don't consider myself a "hardcore" gamer by any means (I work, go to college, and have a full time girlfriend) but when I do sit down to play a game, I want it to be challenging. Just because I don't have much time to play games doesn't mean I want something easy. That's exactly why I still play Melee (it gets the most play out of any game on my Wii) and why I still keep up with all of my advanced techs.

I was hoping that when SMG was released, it'd be a difficult game (or at least as difficult as SM64) but I was really disappointed. I hoped SMG could instill some faith in me about Brawl, but that didn't happen. Sure, SMG looks nice and the controls are decent, but there is absolutely no challenge or depth (my 5 year old brother plays SMG every once in a while when I let him and he's gotten around 65 stars now with no help from anyone), and that's exactly what I fear will happen with Brawl.

I really pray that I'm wrong here, but I've gotten used to the fact that Brawl will just be a "party" game. I'm still getting it, no doubt about that, but my expectations are very low. Melee will still keep the place as the best competitive Smash title (and yeah, competition may not matter to some of you, but it does to others).

 

[Mambo]

Smash Bros games are the kind of games that can appeal to both casual and hardcore gamers. Casual people and hardcore alike can have fun with single player modes (mainly SSE), but you know how hardcore people got with the homerun contest with all that bad dropping and such. But the fighting will set center stage and be able to take both camps and inbetween. Though i am a little worried the competitive fever Smash Bros games has will die down a bit if this game has no exploits/glitches to add more to the fighting.

 

[Ban Heim]

Smash Bros games are the kind of games that can appeal to both casual and hardcore gamers. Casual people and hardcore alike can have fun with single player modes (mainly SSE), but you know how hardcore people got with the homerun contest with all that bad dropping and such. But the fighting will set center stage and be able to take both camps and inbetween. Though i am a little worried the competitive fever Smash Bros games has will die down a bit if this game has no exploits/glitches to add more to the fighting.

It doesn't need exploits. They just need to not make it auto-everything (like auto-tether, being able to grab on to ledges without actually having to face them). Not reducing player freedom would also be nice (I'm looking at you crappy new airdodge).

A game can have advanced techniques without them being an exploit or bug. Tons of games have done this already. Melee just happened to get lucky and got a bug that wasn't broken but only added to the depth of competitive play.

 

[Eternal Neo]

I really pray that I'm wrong here, but I've gotten used to the fact that Brawl will just be a "party" game. I'm still getting it, no doubt about that, but my expectations are very low. Melee will still keep the place as the best competitive Smash title (and yeah, competition may not matter to some of you, but it does to others).

You've already decided this before the game is even released?

 

[Psydon]

Alright, SMG was by no means a "hardcore" game. It was made easy to beat the story mode on purpose, to appeal to anyone who wouldn't be so interested in getting all the stars; they'd be able to breeze through all the way to the end and have a blast while doing it. The remaining stars are for the "hardcore players", or gamers who want more of a challenge.

Kazeno, I stand corrected.

When was this ever said? Who ever said the difficulty of this game would be easy even at higher levels? This is bullsh*t, and you know it, because it's totally unfounded.

If anything, it goes:

1. I didn't say that Brawl would be easy at higher levels of play. However, if it is easy at higher levels of play, then it is safe to call it an "Easy" game.

2. What I said can't be unfounded because all I did was basically type out definitions to terms. And also because it's correct.

3. Your chart and my chart have nothing to do with each other. In fact, I can put them together. Behold.

Easy to pick up and play / Easy to get into = Accessibility.

Accessibility = Genuine interest in the game.

Genuine interest in the game = The desire to learn the more complex, or the more challenging, aspects of the game.

Easy to play at higher levels of play = Easy.

Plenty of gameplay possibilities and options = Depth.

More options = more depth.

More depth = more complexity.

More complexity = greater challenge to play at higher levels of play.

Challenging to play at higher levels of play =/= Easy.

Easy = gameplay can get boring quickly due to lack of challenge.

Overcoming the challenge and mastering the higher levels of play = playing the game more often, and a sense of satisfaction from reaching a new plateau.

Boredom =/= playing the game more often.

Playing more = Having fun.

So indeed, an easier fighting game is a fighting game with less depth to it than its predecessor. Also, the more effectively a game's difficulty scales, and the more depth it has, the more fun one can have playing it in the long run.

We're both right. ^_^

It doesn't need exploits. They just need to not make it auto-everything (like auto-tether, being able to grab on to ledges without actually having to face them). Not reducing player freedom would also be nice (I'm looking at you crappy new airdodge).

A game can have advanced techniques without them being an exploit or bug. Tons of games have done this already. Melee just happened to get lucky and got a bug that wasn't broken but only added to the depth of competitive play.

1. How does the new airdodge reduce player freedom?

2. Like I've already said, the easier recovery programming, in the end, doesn't make the game easier at all, because while you might have an easier time recovering, your opponent will have a harder time getting rid of you, and vice-versa. That could potentially make the game even harder, especially if you're playing against characters who are already rather stubborn when it comes to death (ex. Samus and Metaknight).

 

[Yuna]

Have any of you actually watched the videos, trailers and read the responses from people who have played the game? In almost every aspect, this game is a dumbed down version of Melee.

It's slower, everyone's more floaty, almost every single advanced technique is easier to do (and more broken, L-cancelling now cancels all lag) or just not there anymore (Wavedashing and Double Jump Cancelling) and a lot of broken **** has been added. Additionally, KO:ing people have become virtually impossible unless they have 130%-ish damage.

And they're not very good at balancing the game either going by some impressions from people who've played the game.

No, from what we know so far, the game is definitely a step down from Melee depth-wise. You cannot contest this anymore (and I've been saying it ever since I saw the first trailer because of some of the in-game footage that we got in it).

However, that doesn't mean it won't be a really fun game for casuals.

 

[Psydon]

Have any of you actually watched the videos, trailers and read the responses from people who have played the game? In almost every aspect, this game is a dumbed down version of Melee.

It's slower, everyone's more floaty, almost every single advanced technique is easier to do (and more broken, L-cancelling now cancels all lag) or just not there anymore (Wavedashing and Double Jump Cancelling) and a lot of broken **** has been added. Additionally, KO:ing people have become virtually impossible unless they have 130%-ish damage.

And they're not very good at balancing the game either going by some impressions from people who've played the game.

No, from what we know so far, the game is definitely a step down from Melee depth-wise. You cannot contest this anymore (and I've been saying it ever since I saw the first trailer because of some of the in-game footage that we got in it).

However, that doesn't mean it won't be a really fun game for casuals.

*sigh*

Slower and floatier = Dumbed down?

Auto lag-cancel = Okay, so EVERYONE can act faster upon landing...so what?

Wavedashing is gone = Good, considering what we've received instead.

DJC is gone = Deal. With. It. Yoshi, Lucas and Peach players (they were the ones that could DJC, right?) will; you should follow their example.

A lot of broken **** has been added = Care to elaborate? Or are you just going to say that "In Brawl, nobody will die"?

Higher % for good KO = Okay, so EVERYONE lives longer, making matches a bit longer...so what?

 

[Metroid_01]

I dont think the game is exactly being simplified. Although we have technically seen little to no proof to the contrary (marked removal of melee advanced techs, auto sweetspot, easier DI), I believe that the people crating this game are trying to make it so that the more difficult things are easier for new players to pick up so nobody becomes frustrated with advanced techniques. ... Well, I guess I contradicted myself. I cant think of a counter to that anymore. =.=

Although I want to have faith that the folks making this game are keeping everybody in mind like they have been with their various little features revealed in updates, its hard to see as of now. Regardless, this game will have some degree of depth (Though, I am doubting it will reach melee standards). Recall, 64 really only had 3 or so advanced techs (that I can think of right now), then it was all just smart playing, spacing (and being really cheap).

BTW, Psydon - The issue with that auto sweetspot on grapple is that its really limiting. I havent played brawl, so I cant say all too much, but the fact that it always shoots for the ledge, means you are always going to go to the ledge..like it or not. What if you are out of range at the diagonal? I sure hope it just goes where you say. To me, it seems frustrating. Ya, it is appreciated for stages with a weird ledge like Battlefield in melee, but I dont know if it is really worth it.

 

[Psydon]

BTW, Psydon - The issue with that auto sweetspot on grapple is that its really limiting. I havent played brawl, so I cant say all too much, but the fact that it always shoots for the ledge, means you are always going to go to the ledge..like it or not. What if you are out of range at the diagonal? I sure hope it just goes where you say. To me, it seems frustrating. Ya, it is appreciated for stages with a weird ledge like Battlefield in melee, but I dont know if it is really worth it.

Obviously the devs wouldn't program the grapples so that they always head for the ledge. If it can't reach it (as in, if the player is in a zone where the game understands it won't hit the ledge), I'm sure it'll just go straight like it used to.

Note I said "I'm sure". I'm being optimistic. Maybe that will be a genuine problem for characters like Samus, ZS Samus, Link and Lucas. I dunno.

 

[Yuna]

*sigh*
Slower and floatier = Dumbed down?

Yes. Why is the game slower? Because n00bs complained about how "Melee is too fast" because they weren't able to or didn't want to learn how to play Melee at it's highest level, where "Too Fast" is just "Average/Fast".

So the game makers slowed the entire game down. When it's slower, it's easier to control because you have much more reaction time. Is could also account for why there's a bazillion freeze frames in the game. Heck, even jabs have freeze frames now. Why is this important? More freeze frames = More time to DI.

Of course it's a dumbed down game!

Auto lag-cancel = Okay, so EVERYONE can act faster upon landing...so what?

It's automatically cancels lag. You don't have to time it differently depending on you hit, whiff or hit someone's shield anymore. As long you're fastfalling when you land, the attack is automatically cancelled.

Of course this dumbs down game down.

Making things easier = Dumbing it down = Making it easier for n00bs to play and easier to play in general. It's not necessarily a bad thing, but people are arguing that Brawl isn't dumbed down. Well it is.

Wavedashing is gone = Good, considering what we've received instead.

Wavedashing being gone is not good, even if we got a few new things. Name useful new things that are universally useful such as wavedashing. In a game which has been slowed down considerably, wavedashing would've been volatile in making the game slightly fast again.

DJC is gone = Deal. With. It. Yoshi, Lucas and Peach players (they were the ones that could DJC, right?) will; you should follow their example.

It's gone. It removes depth. It dumbs the game down.

A lot of broken **** has been added = Care to elaborate? Or are you just going to say that "In Brawl, nobody will die"?

* Auto-sweetspotting Up Bs
* Everyone's Up Bs reach further now and the new characters just have broken recoveries like gliding and ****.
* Homing Tether Recoveries
* Footstool Jump, though this is a bit ambiguous. It might be slightly useless
* Bad, bad, bad balance of certain characters (MetaKnight, anyone?).
* A majority of the stages being useless in tournament play because of how they work.
* Pikachu's Dsmash. It's like Peach's in Melee, only much much worse (KO:s at 90% off the top).

Higher % for good KO = Okay, so EVERYONE lives longer, making matches a bit longer...so
what?

It tips the tiers even more towards those who are harder to kill. You just don't get it, do you? If an attack requires 5 more % to kill Y over Z in Melee, it'll now maybe require 10 more %. And so on and so on. Characters who were already hard to kill will become exponentially harder to kill. Characters easier to kill will still die easier than those hard-to-kill only exponentially easier.

 

[TheCanuck75]

I just got through galaxy... played as Luigi...

Dude, you need to be more careful about what you say about unlockables in other games. I'm glad I already discovered this myself, that was not cool to reveal that bit of information.

Also, people need to calm down about Brawl. That game is not yet released and still being tweaked. And if you competitive players do not like the fact that Nintendo will always try to appeal to as many people as possible then you can always continue to have Melee tournaments. I myself would not be so quick to rule Brawl as a dumbed down version of Melee.

Let's just be patient...

 

[5150]

We lose wavedashing and gain a plethora of other teqniches. The combat will be ALOT deeper but the overgame will be..well...OVER 9000 tims deeper then melee what with subspace, stage builder and all.

lol what "plethora" of techniques are you talking about? cuz last time i checked we only have 1-2 advanced techniques yet they removed nearly all the major ones we had from melee


btw op is basically saying, "NINTENDO IS GOOD I R FANBOY"

 

[GreenKirby]

One: With stuff like Footstool Jumping, crawling, and not being paralyzed after air dodging, the game will now have more so called depth

Two: Only wavedashing seems to be gone. L-caneling is still in but it's different, hugging, egdehogging, wavelanding, are still in as well.

Three: No matter how you look at it, even Melee wasn't all that deep. People only assume that because you play as known Nintendo characters. If the characters were original characters, I gurantee no one would be claiming that Smash would be deep because they won't be blinded due to fanboyism

Four: It SEEMS to me that some (NOT ALL) pro players are afraid of relearning the game

Five: The fact that people think the game will be too slow due to a demo, new controllers, and n00bs playing it , girls screaming

Six: I know this post will be overlooked. Whether people agree with my points or not. It won't even get counterarguments sadly.

 

[TheMagicalKuja]

lol what "plethora" of techniques are you talking about? cuz last time i checked we only have 1-2 advanced techniques yet they removed nearly all the major ones we had from melee


btw op is basically saying, "NINTENDO IS GOOD I R FANBOY"

^Do we even extensively know about advance techniques? I thought the majority of them had stayed, except for ZOMG NO WAVEDASHAN.

This game isn't the second coming (oh who am I kidding, it IS), nor is it perfect, but for the love of CHAOS would you cut the BAAAAWWWWing over stuff you're not even sure of yet?

 

[GreenKirby]

^Do we even extensively know about advance techniques? I thought the majority of them had stayed, except for ZOMG NO WAVEDASHAN.

This game isn't the second coming (oh who am I kidding, it IS), nor is it perfect, but for the love of CHAOS would you cut the BAAAAWWWWing over stuff you're not even sure of yet?

Yeah some of them that didn't need a moveable airdodge stayed. There just different.

 

[5150]

One: With stuff like Footstool Jumping, crawling, and not being paralyzed after air dodging, the game will now have more so called depth

none of those are advanced techniques.

Two: Only wavedashing seems to be gone. L-caneling is still in but it's different, hugging, egdehogging, wavelanding, are still in as well.

djc removed, turning around with b moves removed, sweetspotting is done automaticaly, etc

Three: No matter how you look at it, even Melee wasn't all that deep. People only assume that because you play as known Nintendo characters. If the characters were original characters, I gurantee no one would be claiming that Smash would be deep because they won't be blinded due to fanboyism

you never entered a tournament, did you...

Four: It SEEMS to me that some (NOT ALL) pro players are afraid of relearning the game

theres nothing to relearn. its just melee dumbed down and slowed down.

Five: The fact that people think the game will be too slow due to a demo, new controllers, and n00bs playing it , girls screaming

we didnt have noobs playing it. we had pros (such as HugS). they aren't going to change the speed form the demo.

Six: I know this post will be overlooked. Whether people agree with my points or not. It won't even get counterarguments sadly.

gg

 

[GreenKirby]

none of those are advanced techniques.

Doesn't mean that they should automatically be overlooked.

djc removed, turning around with b moves removed, sweetspotting is done automaticaly, etc

What's DJC? And if by sweetspotting, you mean like Link's hookahot and Lucas' snake rope, I'm sure that you won't automatically grab the ledge if you're too low from the egde

you never entered a tournament, did you...

Yes I have. Your point? Would you still be playing this game, let alone claiming it's as deep, if it only featured original charfacters? I know for a fact that fanboyism for the Nintendo characters can do that.

theres nothing to relearn. its just melee dumbed down and slowed down.

We don't know that yet. And for goodness sake. They already found some advance techs in the demo

we didnt have noobs playing it. we had pros (such as HugS). they aren't going to change the speed form the demo.

But the majority of people playing the game were n00bs and that's who was shown in most of the vidoes. And I doubt even HugS was comfortable using the new Wiimote and CC for Smash[/QUOTE]

gg

HOT SEX!

 

[Psydon]

I congratulate you for multi-quoting me. And I'm not being sarcastic; I really mean that. It shows you care. ^_^

Now, to business. BTW, let me know if you can't see this colour that well; I'll change it.

Yes. Why is the game slower? Because n00bs complained about how "Melee is too fast" because they weren't able to or didn't want to learn how to play Melee at it's highest level, where "Too Fast" is just "Average/Fast".

O_o Somehow I doubt that. With higher Up+Bs, floatier gameplay, and weird stuff like tripping and the "super jump", it seems to me that they simply wanted to try a new style of interaction (note how a lot of things are said to be more akin to Smash64 than Melee. 64 was slower than Melee), and with that came a new physics engine. No matter how much people may have complained (do we have any proof of this?), Melee wasn't too fast.

So the game makers slowed the entire game down. When it's slower, it's easier to control because you have much more reaction time. Is could also account for why there's a bazillion freeze frames in the game. Heck, even jabs have freeze frames now. Why is this important? More freeze frames = More time to DI.

See above.

It's automatically cancels lag. You don't have to time it differently depending on you hit, whiff or hit someone's shield anymore. As long you're fastfalling when you land, the attack is automatically cancelled.

That makes me wonder about something. Let's say I drop on someone with a fastfalled nair in Brawl. Wouldn't this happen, assuming the attack connects as normal?

1. My opponent gets hit and flies away from me. Of course, at this point I haven't hit the ground yet, but I'm about to.
2. I hit the ground, still doing the nair.
3. Because it's being fastfalled, the attack-and thus the lag-is instantly cancelled. I can move again.

Making things easier = Dumbing it down = Making it easier for n00bs to play and easier to play in general. It's not necessarily a bad thing, but people are arguing that Brawl isn't dumbed down. Well it is.

Look, I've already admitted many times that some elements of Brawl have been made easier for players, most notably recovery. However, there's a big difference between:

"Some things in Brawl are easier"

and

"This game is TOO easy; you'll never die!"

And I'll say it again. Yes, some things in Brawl are easier. But this doesn't mean that Brawl will be a significantly easier game than Melee, not that it will necessarily have less depth than Melee. I'm glad you've admitted that, despite the truths we've seen, that the exaggerations some have made are simply not true.

Wavedashing being gone is not good, even if we got a few new things. Name useful new things that are universally useful such as wavedashing. In a game which has been slowed down considerably, wavedashing would've been volatile in making the game slightly fast again.

Wavedashing is not and never was some kind of be-all end-all technique. If it was as good as you said everyone who was able would do it, and that simply isn't the case. Not just that, if the entire game had slowed down, wouldn't the speed of wavedashing be slowed down as well?

It's gone. It removes depth. It dumbs the game down.

Wavedashing gone removes a small amount of depth...for some people.

A much more versatile airdodge (I know now that there's more to the loss of wavedashing than the new airdodge, but let's face it: it's the big tradeoff) offers a significant amount of depth for anyone. And if you ask me, that's "universally useful".

* Auto-sweetspotting Up Bs

Edgehog them or edgeguard them.

* Everyone's Up Bs reach further now and the new characters just have broken recoveries like gliding and ****.

They can't attack or turn around when they're gliding, and I think they can only glide once before they must land. Besides, aren't Pit and Metaknight the only ones who can glide? They're two characters, for God's sake!

* Homing Tether Recoveries

Metroid_01 raised a good point about this. If my hopes go for nothing, it can potentially be more of a hinderance than a boon.

* Bad, bad, bad balance of certain characters (MetaKnight, anyone?).

Oh, leave that alone. =P

* A majority of the stages being useless in tournament play because of how they work.

You remember how many stages Melee had. If you spare nothing else your judgment until Feb. 10, spare this.

* Pikachu's Dsmash. It's like Peach's in Melee, only much much worse (KO:s at 90% off the top).


Bring it on. If the Pikachu is lucky, maybe I won't KO it at 5% off the top with Mario's Up+B.

But seriously, though, I know some of the nerfs and buffs in Brawl make no sense whatsoever, and it both confuses and angers me, but I'm just going to laugh about it and charge into the fray, guns blazing and fireballs soaring.

It tips the tiers even more towards those who are harder to kill. You just don't get it, do you? If an attack requires 5 more % to kill Y over Z in Melee, it'll now maybe require 10 more %. And so on and so on. Characters who were already hard to kill will become exponentially harder to kill. Characters easier to kill will still die easier than those hard-to-kill only exponentially easier.

You're making that sound like a bigger deal than it really is.

 

[TheCanuck75]

Three: No matter how you look at it, even Melee wasn't all that deep. People only assume that because you play as known Nintendo characters. If the characters were original characters, I gurantee no one would be claiming that Smash would be deep because they won't be blinded due to fanboyism

Um, Melee is an incredibly deep game, you need to explain yourself as to why you do not think it is deep?

And 5150, what is the definition of an advance technique?

 

[SJAK47]

theres nothing to relearn. its just melee dumbed down and slowed down.

Brawl is not Melee. They may have similar properties but it's a new game.

 

[Psydon]

Um, Melee is an incredibly deep game, you need to explain yourself as to why you do not think it is deep?

And 5150, what is the definition of an advance technique?

A technique that isn't immediately presented to you, and that not everyone can do with ease.