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You're entitled to not buy a game sure, but to do so because it doesn't have all your favourite characters is a little short sighted. Surely you enjoy the game as a whole, not just the roster? What characters do make your cut, out of interest?
This is an awful way to see things. I'm sure a lot of Nintendo fans, even the guys on these boards, are happy with the newcomers we've seen so far; I know I am. What exactly is wrong with any of them?
That's why I keep thinking this Gematsu leak likely has something to do with Marketing. They're trying to bring in new people to buy the game so they're expanding vastly with new franchise reps. That doesn't mean they'll abandon the fans all-together, just means they're focusing on it a lot less.
What about Little Mac? He's a long-time fan favourite, Palutena has been a big name on these forums as well. Rosalina, less so, but she still has a lot of fans around here.
Newbies to Smash overall will be thrilled with the cast presented to them. Yes, some fan favorites are being set off to the side, but Nintendo's entire strategy seems to be getting folk that haven't played the series yet to play the series. This is evident in practically all of their games assuming that the player has never played a game in the lineup before(as well as the source of the infamous "here's how a Poke Ball works!" or "this is five rupees!"). You are right in that they appear to take returning players for granted, but can you blame them? As far as Smash goes, really, they're the only game in town with the characters, lineup, and features to make this possible. Sony tried and it bombed, and few others step up to the plate with anything with near the marketability of Smash(one could argue for Jump Superstars but did that ever actually see a release over here?).
You might be interested in this. I read in the Falco thread(I think, maybe it was the Mewtwo) that a rumor has surfaced regarding a reveal of him this Friday pointing at Mewtwo's existence in the game somehow. This person mentioned he had info from someone in Nintendo's marketing department. Could be a connection, could be bunk.
I'm well aware of the Falco leak. Not likely to happen. It wasn't for him to appear this Friday, just this week, and it also means that the latest he could be announced is Friday otherwise the leak is debunked.
Most of my interest in Smash is in the roster. It seems short-sighted to you, maybe, that I'd hinge a lot of my interest in the game on the playable cast, but to me, those are characters that I'm going to be playing for hours, days, weeks, months. I'd at least enjoy having more than a few characters that I actually like.
Maybe I used the wrong word. It's not crap that Sakurai's pulling, it's just Sakurai's eccentricities that are starting to grate on me. I'm happy with the newcomers we've seen so far, because Sakurai's done a good job of proving me they deserve their places on the roster, but I personally didn't ask for them so I have a hard time getting excited for them. Coupled with the fact that the Gematsu Leak is looking more and more like the future every day, and all I have to look forward to is character DLC in the hopes that I'll get some love.
Ah, well, guess we'll see if it bears fruit by Saturday then. Could make or break quite a few theories.
What about Little Mac and Mega Man? You read my post, right?
I didn't say that I feel that way too strongly. I'm saying that I can see why someone would feel that way.
If they weren't convinced to buy the game with Brawl's cast, what makes you think that the returning characters from Brawl will thrill them into buying it this time?
I don't think the existence of tutorials is in itself evidence that a game is not aimed at long-time fans of a series.
From a business perspective, they're probably doing the right thing.
We're talking about bringing in new players. Obviously newbies to the series who bought the game were convinced by what they saw. But you can't say that they didn't care - how many of them bought Melee because Bowser was added? How many of them bought Brawl because of Sonic or Diddy Kong? Why are you assuming that they weren't convinced partially because of the newcomers that were added?
That is actually a pretty reasonable roster, but I think replacing Mewtwo with a new DK rep or Star Fox rep is a good idea.After really thinking about it. I'm convinced this is our roster. 51 fits better than any other size.
Only Mewtwo and Waddle Dee are questionable in the main roster for me. If they're not in the game when it releases. Then replace them with the new DK and Star Fax rep in the DLC (bottom right).
Erimir
in the collapsed bits.I think that's Nintendo's long-term 'audience', though. They fully expect their fans to 'outgrow' them and focus efforts on newcomers to the games rather than people who have been playing for a while. They were more than happy to be the 'second system' in households during the PS3/360 era. They're targeting people that haven't yet gotten into the games because they feel, rightly or wrongly, that they can do more with a new audience rather than preserving their old one. The Wii in general was a departure from the hardcore crowd as a whole, and look at the sheer amount of success it had. The Wii U is trying to pull the mainstream back in, but it's got a mountain to climb because Nintendo's strategy of 'target newcomers with renewed IPs' doesn't resonate with the mainstream strategy of 'make games in franchises early and often'. This is Nintendo, whose quickness to change is rivaled only by a glacier. That lack of adaptability can be compensated for somewhat when your audience keeps being renewed and those who would be able to notice are no longer present to do so.
True, but there is a difference between a tutorial and blatant hand-holding(as well as constant reminders of things you should really be able to deduce with a little bit of thought, like the rupee thing being repeated relentlessly whenever you pick up a different color one).
No debate here.
Haven't played it, so I can't comment. I base my reasoning off of Skyward Sword.
Both points are true. Nintendo is... Awkward when it comes to a long-term fanbase. It knows that Mario, Zelda, Pokemon, etc are extremely popular and beloved series. It's just they're so reluctant to try stepping outside of the box on them that makes the experience a bit.. Same-y. Smash is probably one of the most radical departures from the norm that Nintendo has, so Sakurai and his crew are afforded a fair amount of leeway for it, yet even he seems to see the appeal of the newcomer more than the veteran. They seem to use veteran status more as a means of showcasing the longevity of Smash and its characters rather than as a draw to returning players.
Well, look toward the new crowd. Mewtwo is debatable, given his presence in X/Y, but was he really that hype for anyone besides Genwunners? People who got in on X/Y or got in at a period other than G1 probably didn't think all that much of him, especially given the buzz of Fairy-type and the new format the battles and gameplay are in. It does help explain why he was given Mega Evolution, because otherwise the new crew might just overshadow him into obsolescence. K. Rool, well, when was he last even visible? Chrom was at least in a very recent and extremely successful game on Nintendo's dominant platform. So fans of FE, of which there are many, even if they may like Lucina or Robin better, will likely still enjoy Awakening's representation in Chrom.
We can't really say one way or another. There are people sensitive to the roster, but that's not the only factor that comes into consideration. There may be people who picked up the game because traditional fighters weren't fun anymore or they wanted to try a new style. Others might just enjoy the history that Smash provides. Others still just wanted a party game that they and their friends could blow a few nights on. Smash has far more appeal than just characters.
I agree. That's probably why a lot of new series(to Smash, anyway) are being focused on right now instead of building existing franchises.
Well, the icons can resize themselves if need be. Whether they do or not is currently unknown. We'll know once we see that 25th character on the 3DS screen.
I feel Mewtwo is much more likely as he is an easy port. It's Mewtwo in the normal roster and a new DK or Star Fax rep in DLC. Or no Mewtwo in normal roster, but he is in DLC instead of the DK or Star Fax rep.
I dunno. Even in 51/53 + Random, I don't see the Mario Theory being broken. But then, if the roster goes beyond 47 + Random, a lot of theories and certainties go out of the window.
I dount Bandana Dee, K. Rool can easily take his place in this roster, also, who is supposed to be the character at the bottom? Please, don't tell me it's another 3rd partyAfter really thinking about it. I'm convinced this is our roster. 51 fits better than any other size.
Only Mewtwo and Waddle Dee are questionable in the main roster for me. If they're not in the game when it releases. Then replace them with the new DK and Star Fax rep in the DLC (bottom right).
I said it's a hypotetical number, if it was the final roster size, it wouldn't fit in one non-scrolling screen, heck, even 49 doesn't
Could you share that theory with me? And what is important about those theories?
K Rool seems very unlikely to be in the roster. There is very little evidence to support his playability. There's not much evidence against him. But there's barely any evidence for him vs a character like Ridley who has been teased consistently. Kremlings is just for an enemy representing DK in Smash Run. For a character that there's barely any evidence for, i don't see how K Rool can "easily take a place on the roster". And no that question mark is there for one more character we don't know about. Potentially one of the characters I thought would be DLC could fit in that spot. If that was the case, I think the Zelda rep would be on the main roster.
There is more supporting K. Rool than Bandana Dee and a new Zelda rep, they didn't choose Kremlings to be the DK enemies, Tikis were, they are reviving enemies after no major appearence for no reason? I kinda doubt this
Smash does that for many enemies. But still the evidence is more against him than for him. I would love to give a spot on the roster to him. I want him in. Just at this point it does not seem likely at all. And even if their was a new DK rep, it'd probably unfortunately be Dixie instead of a villain that has not been referenced in the reboot of his own series.
The Mario Theory is an observation based on the CSS of each game. In every Smash entry, the Mario series is always either at the top or tied for top representation with any other series. Here's the breakdown(to save time, I'm only comparing the Big Three, Mario, Zelda, and Pokemon):
I'm going to tag the biggest K. Rool supporter to explain better than me, k? @
BKupa666
I guess you can explain this better than me
Well as you said, I don't think the game is designed with this in mind. Sakurai's not going "Oh man I want Mewtwo in but can't go over Mario!" That seems unlikely and quite frankly, kinda stupid.
I really do not want a K Rool argument in this thread. I've seen his evidence, it still does not change my points. I want him in, but facts are facts.I'm going to tag the biggest K. Rool supporter to explain better than me, k? @
Yoshi and Wario did spin off from Mario, you're right, but as you've also said, they've established their own franchises, and can exist independent of Mario now(evidenced in Wooly World and Warioware), so they are truly their own representatives.
All these variables though for a theory we can't even prove. "Doesn't apply to DLC", " Yoshi and Wario are independent", "Only applies to base roster". We can't prove any of this as we are not inside the development conversations at Nintendo.
You're right. It's a theory born from a pattern that happened to emerge looking from prior CSS setups. It is, however, one of the few tools we have to try and speculate the final roster more accurately.
I see what you're saying. But I feel like it's contradicted too easily and their's too many variables for it to be a legitimate killer or savior for rosters. If we had more Smash games to look at, we could maybe see a true pattern, but with only 3 games, it is way too likely to be coincidental. Even if it was a rule in the past, who's saying they would never ditch that?
Honestly that thing is just mystifying. Even if you are a newcomer, you can remember the values of rupees after seeing them a handful of times (and you can, you know, just see how much your money increases), Zelda newbie or not.
Hype for Melee fans too. I'm not really in the Pokemon community, so I can't comment on how many fans he has from newer Pokemon players.
It was a while ago, but remember DKC1-3 were massively successful - they sold 18 million copies over just those three games. Add in the Donkey Kong Land games and it's 25 million. 25 million in sales all featuring K Rool as the primary villain.
Chrom's game sold 1.2 million. That's successful, it's a hit, but I don't think it is "extremely successful". It doesn't even compare to Mario Galaxy, or DKC Returns, or Animal Crossing games.
The problem is that FE games max out at 1.2 million. And a lot of sales of the games are from repeat buyers, meaning that you can't just add all the sales together to get the total number of fans.
Maybe, but it's still valid as of right now. If Mewtwo does get confirmed or something else happens that invalidates the theory, then we can toss it out, but right now it looks reasonably solid to speculate by. DLC will likely follow no pattern, as it's basically the whims of a developer that's no longer on a schedule and can monitor fan feedback more reliably(or at least after getting his bias out of the way first).
True, but remember, Nintendo doesn't expect too long a commitment to its games from the same audience, they seem to operate on a more cyclic method.
I've only played Pokemon(since Gen 1!), so I can only speak to Mewtwo as a player of the Pokemon series(even the Mystery Dungeon ones!). Then again, I wasn't really hype for any legendary until Xerneas, so maybe I'm broken?
Impressive numbers, but it was admittedly forever ago. Smash is notable for its history, yes, but if DKC's going to get a new rep, it would likely be from the newer games. A fair amount of fans, especially those that jumped on board during the DKCR days, may look at K.Rool with a great deal of confusion. A great shout-out to the older fans, to be sure, but he's not really going to drive things that hard except for that earnest group. Plus, it's more than just the villain that goes into making a game series successful. Just look at Tetris(though I will admit the Reverse L Block is the true final boss. >.<; ).
FE's not really a mainstream game, and people barely associate it with Nintendo(at least here in North America) which is what makes its sales truly impressive. Same deal with Xenoblade.
Nintendo likely looks purely at units sold more than trying to identify whether a sold unit is going to a new or repeat buyer. At least that mentality allows their constant repetition to make better sense. I've never played the FE series though, so I can't comment on its gameplay and whether elements repeat in it or not.
Well, there is still large outcry even on this very forum for additional FE characters like Lucina and Robin. Characters I know nothing about but they seem quite passionate for.
Dude, Smash is in part as the Graveyard of Nintendo. Including some characters or elements of some games that are not going to see the light again anytime soon.
Will you be excited for the game and plan on buying it once Ness and Ganondorf are revealed?
Well, you're right, Nintendo fans are the main target demographic, but really, Mother fans are a rather small subset of Nintendo fans, so it would be unreasonable from their perspective to focus too much on Mother's representation in the game when they could instead use that time and effort focusing on Mario, Mega Man, Sonic, Pokémon, Zelda, Donkey Kong, even Fire Emblem.
You've made me cry.
I can see where you'd come up with your theory, but I think they are choosing the majority of the characters to either please fans games that weren't previously represented very well/at all or to simply add something new to the series. The entire strategy with these games seems to be "create a flashy new Smash game that really emphasizes how unique this installment is in comparison to previous entries and other games on the market in general."
I suggest checking out the Takamaru support thread or doing a Google search (along with the keyword "Nintendo"). But the quick answer is a samurai from an old, NES-era game that never saw official release outside of Japan. You may have seen a reference to him in one of the Nintendo Land games, Takamaru's Ninja Castle.
I mean they're solid sales, I just don't think they're as impressive as some other series. Xenoblade is currently unrepresented in Smash, which puts it in a different situation.
Sure for evaluating how worthwhile the series is. It's all about how much money they spent on development vs. how much revenue they got, yada yada.
It's some combination of a vocal minority and some of the idiosyncrasies of the board, IMO. The amount of support I see for obscure Japanese-exclusive characters here can't possibly be representative of all Anglophone Nintendo fans, for example. It feels like people go out of their way to find characters to support sometimes.
It'll definitely be a start. If Ganondorf comes back with a moveset revamp, day one buy for me. I'm not holding my breath, however.
Naturally, but considering Mother isn't likely to ever see a legitimate sequel outside of fan projects (insert Mother 4 fan game plug here), the series needs to be memorialized. Itoi won't have anything to do with the series anymore, so the last bastion of hope for the Mother series to not gradually fade into obscurity is Smash Brothers. Having said that, I can understand why Lucas would get cut, but I would have preferred whoever takes his place be another Mother character. The series has a wealth of unique and interesting characters that would fit well into Smash. It's just a shame I seem to be the only one to see it.
I agree, it is a shame that the series and its SSB representation are both in such dire condition. Reading your feelings about it all actually made me start to feel a little sad, haha. Maybe in a few years all of the fans should get together and do a Rainfall-type of petition, drowning Sakurai and Nintendo with sad fan pleas. I know that would certainly sway me! If nothing else it would get me to listen to some Pollyanna music to cheer up.
cut. I am also under the impression that Mii Fighter replaces the random button or works out some other way that doesn’t take up a slot on the roster.could be replaced by, despite Jiggly being an OG 12., leaving every series (aside from Mario and the Singles) with one unannounced character.& are announced next, the starting roster would be all announced characters minus Luigi, Sonic, Mega Man, and Pac-Man.& would now be unlockables, despite starting in Brawl. I am under the impression that the current lack of villains/rivals confirmed so far has to do with the common idea of a villains trailer or something other. Since Bowser is already a starter, Mario’s rival would be Wario, just representing his own series.
It's a bit of a lost cause when people immediately claim K. Rool is unlikely, then search for reasons to support the claim, rather than making a claim based on evaluation of game and development factors. This is where you see cherry-picked arguments like "Muhrelevance matters because...because!" and "It doesn't matter that Kremlings are revived, unless Tiki Tong is now a shoo-in because of the Tikis" come into play.I'm going to tag the biggest K. Rool supporter to explain better than me, k? @
I don't think it would be unreasonable for Nintendo to at least confirm that at least one of them will be back. (Ness or Lucas, that is). Even though I know Lucas is likely to get the cut, let's please not forget what happened when Earthbound was released on VC.
