............

[A_Reverie]

..................

 

[AugsEU]

Nice work man.

 

[Geenareeno]

Really great write-up, much appreciated

 

[Dark Byte]

Good job on this mate. I played on auto pilot for years and it took me forever to realize that there was even another way to play the game. Seeing this post back when I was a beginner would have been very helpful. Bad habits, or "finger patterns" as my friends and I call them, can be beaten by simply practicing more and making sure that all of your options are well rehearsed. If you know lots of different approaches and timing mix ups, you are less likely to resort to doing the same thing over and over. Instead, you can cycle through and figure out what order to do things in for the best chance of winning your exchanges. The more I improve, the better feel I have for where to mix in shine grabs, do a grab/tilt after a tomahawk jump, approach with a full hop, etc.

 

[Prez08]

Great read! I love reading on the different takes on Melee's neutral game. Your concepts (initiation, passive/active interactions) were palpable ways to define something as complicated as the neutral game. Thanks for posting!

Now, time to watch some vids in slow motion with VLC :D

 

[Signia]

Advantage is not "having more options." What if all your options suck?

Advantage is when your options are better, as in they have better risk/reward. More technically, you have the advantage when the theoretical Nash Equilibrium strategy, which is the optimal mix of options and their optimal frequency of usage without taking into account what your opponent's mixed strategy is, gives you a better expected payoff than your opponent's. Basically, you're in a probabilistically better scenario than your opponent assuming both players are playing optimally. That's if you're talking about a situation regardless of the players involved. Obviously, a player that is playing closer to optimal or in a way that counters the opponent's mixed strategy will have the advantage even if the situation itself is not advantageous theoretically.

"Having more options" is just a single way that you might have the advantage, since what you really mean is "having more VIABLE options and the options are MORE VIABLE."

Anyway, that's just one place this write-up is lacking. You've defined some useful distinctions well but others not so well and it's all without proper fundamental grounding, requiring a million examples. It's very 2008 Smashboards, actually. It's all been done before: http://smashboards.com/threads/zoning-spacing-and-other-fundamentals.302678/

A little about me: I've been playing competitive Smash for about 2 years now, with Project M in 2014. Most of that time doing the basics and just getting the feel of the game. I didn't start dedicating myself to Melee until around February 2015.

Sweet summer child... you are not ready to be making write-ups. You've only been playing Melee seriously for a little over a year! You need less writing, more reading:

DOMINATION 101

http://risingthunder.wikia.com/wiki/Domination_101_(article_series) <-convenient list

The genesis of the fighting game thought.

"A lot of the concepts–even the basics of how we understand fighting game strategy today–had never been analyzed or even written down before. Looking back, I’m surprised at how the concepts and even the terminology has stuck around to today. Of course it could have been done better, but at that time nobody was talking like that about fighting games or thinking about things systematically.

It’s not like people were talking about controlling space or explaining the Ume-Shoryu at the time–it just wasn’t happening. Much like now, the discussion was centered around particular things like wake-up strategies for a certain character, or option selects, with nobody really talking about what it meant in general, or the way psychology (beyond simple yomi) factors into the match."

-Seth Killian

The neutral game but for japanese martial arts.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maai
http://avirokahkarate.blogspot.com/2011/04/maai-effective-distance.html
http://www.aikiweb.com/techniques/skoss1.html
https://kendoinfo.wordpress.com/2010/07/08/thoughts-on-maai-prompted-by-chiba-sensei’s teaching/

A decent analysis off the top of my head that relates to Melee:
http://alexspuffstuff.blogspot.com/p/blog-page_24.html

And of course there's more out there. "rarely expanded upon" my ass.

 

[A_Reverie]

Advantage is not "having more options." What if all your options suck?

Advantage is when your options are better, as in they have better risk/reward.

Semantics. This goes without saying when I mentioned when someone has "more options." I'm not including options that are obviously unviable when I mention maintaining advantage, but I will amend my post to be more specific.

Advantage is not "having more options." Anyway, that's just one place this write-up is lacking. You've defined some useful distinctions well but others not so well and it's all without proper fundamental grounding, requiring a million examples. It's very 2008 Smashboards, actually. It's all been done before: http://smashboards.com/threads/zoning-spacing-and-other-fundamentals.302678/

I wasn't attempting to claim that the analysis of neutral has never been done before, just not to the same extent as other fields of the game such as punish. Even the concepts in the post you linked were ones I specifically intended to expand upon. Even that post you linked uses vague terminology to describe spacing concepts. I believe it can be narrowed down even further through examining the different thought processes that go into "closing the gap" or in being "forced to approach." The distinctions I've made here are only the beginning of what I've come up with and my intention was simply to share.

Sweet summer child... you are not ready to be making write-ups. You've only been playing Melee seriously for a little over a year! You need less writing, more reading

While I appreciate feedback, there's really no reason to be so condescending. Normally I wouldn't respond to comments like this, but it simply serves no use but to attempt to belittle me for having played for a shorter time than you deem necessary to pen ideas down. There are many more resources for Melee players to use in their improvement these days, and the growth I've achieved in a year (that many others have achieved as well) is different than that of a year's experience in 2010.

Writing is creative, and it is an awesome tool that allows someone's ideas to become more concrete. I wrote this guide for myself just as much as I wrote it to share with others.

DOMINATION 101
http://risingthunder.wikia.com/wiki/Domination_101_(article_series) <-convenient list

The genesis of the fighting game thought.

"A lot of the concepts–even the basics of how we understand fighting game strategy today–had never been analyzed or even written down before. Looking back, I’m surprised at how the concepts and even the terminology has stuck around to today. Of course it could have been done better, but at that time nobody was talking like that about fighting games or thinking about things systematically.

It’s not like people were talking about controlling space or explaining the Ume-Shoryu at the time–it just wasn’t happening. Much like now, the discussion was centered around particular things like wake-up strategies for a certain character, or option selects, with nobody really talking about what it meant in general, or the way psychology (beyond simple yomi) factors into the match."

-Seth Killian

The neutral game but for japanese martial arts.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maai
http://avirokahkarate.blogspot.com/2011/04/maai-effective-distance.html
http://www.aikiweb.com/techniques/skoss1.html
https://kendoinfo.wordpress.com/2010/07/08/thoughts-on-maai-prompted-by-chiba-sensei’s teaching/

A decent analysis off the top of my head that relates to Melee:
http://alexspuffstuff.blogspot.com/p/blog-page_24.html

And of course there's more out there. "rarely expanded upon" my ***.

There is a time and place for the concepts featured in Domination 101. I've read it before and my post has nothing to do with mindset, so I question whether or not you actually read my post.

This post was written specifically within the scope of Melee and its gameplay. Everything you linked is great stuff that everyone should read, but it doesn't help anyone who has trouble applying the concepts in those links to Melee itself.

TL;DR - Melee neutral can be broken down even further than it has been in the links you provided. I'm just trying to get the ball rolling.

 

[-ACE-]

Signia what did you expect really? He's trying to help explain the most under discussed and most important aspect of melee. It's a deep subject and there is no perfect approach or answer. I respect the users that contribute to the community.

 

[Signia]

Signia what did you expect really? He's trying to help explain the most under discussed and most important aspect of melee. It's a deep subject and there is no perfect approach or answer. I respect the users that contribute to the community.

It's not under-discussed at all. It's been done before in much better ways, that's why I linked some random blog that does it better. I don't think a "perfect" approach really makes sense but it sure as hell isn't subjective, either. Some guides are better than others. Not everyone deserves a pat on the back just for typing a whole lot (jesus, 4927 words).

On it's own it's whatever but it's part a long ongoing pattern of misinformation, not-quite-accurate information, and useless and vague invention of terminology and abstractions. There's a quite a bloat of relatively new players putting out their 3-5k word theses.

Be honest. Did you actually read all of that? Listen to this nonsense:

"Repeatedly offering a way for someone to respond to your actions is known as conditioning. It's a powerful tool for mind-gaming."

That is not the full scope of conditioning, why make up such a specific definition when most people should already know about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning. It already has a definition, don't share your nooby understanding of it!

"Choosing grab as a secondary action without being mindful of it can cause many stocks to be canceled and a less knowledgeable version of my brain to fill with many question marks. "

WTF? Stock cancelling, I gotta learn that one.

"A player develops a habit whenever they commonly select the same action or series of actions. This can happen when they're not playing mindfully, or it can be a deeper tendency that takes longer to discover. Any time a player executes a certain interaction similarly without choosing a different action to suit the situation can be seen as habitual."

No ****! If English is your first language then you already know what a habit is.

"Advantage as a Decision-Making Tool
Blah blah blah"

"Quantifying Advantage"

Really think nobody has tried to do this before? There is an entire field of study that has already laid the groundwork for you (game theory).

I could go on a lot longer.

Yes, I realize I am ****ting on a teenager's 5k word manifesto, but it has to be done.

 

[-ACE-]

Signia So you expected the world from melee discussion, I see now. Your smashboards experience must have been riddled with disappointment over the years, lol. Also, neutral game isn't discussed as much or to the same degree as edgeguarding, punish game, defense, spacing, etc etc... So I'm not sure how you can say it's not under-discussed considering its importance. But I'll let you get back to fighting the good fight, you seem to really need this one.

 

[Signia]

Signia So you expected the world from melee discussion, I see now. Your smashboards experience must have been riddled with disappointment over the years, lol. Also, neutral game isn't discussed as much or to the same degree as edgeguarding, punish game, defense, spacing, etc etc... So I'm not sure how you can say it's not under-discussed considering its importance. But I'll let you get back to fighting the good fight, you seem to really need this one.

Ho oh yeah, I've been disappointed plenty of times. There's like, one useful active thread to me on this entire board. This recent era of people talking about optimizing strategy and making real tutorial and tech videos and not silly "combo videos" is way over due. Day 1 in Soul Calibur I was getting useful info on their forums, and surprise surprise, the meta healthily progressed and I got good at the game. I only check rarely, but there is maybe one thing worth reading every year on Smashboards, and I can tell because garbage like this gets praise. Y'all are a joke, and it's fun to **** on half-baked theory, the kind that used keep me a bad player. It's like reading the "I don't understand why Ganon is in the middle of the tiers" copy paste for the first time again and again. I need to win this fight? I'm just having fun.

You still haven't answered my question though, did you read the whole thing before defending it? I doubt you did Mr. cool black smoker guy.

Anyway, to anyone reading this, if you want to improve and learn cool things about yourself and the game, read ****in anything but smashboards! The stuff I linked, Inner Game of Tennis, Flow, blogs like DruggedFox's and Wobbles and even that rando Milwaukee puff player. Maybe read Magus post history and top player advice threads.

 

[-ACE-]

Mr. cool black smoker guy

Lol. Classic.

 

[A_Reverie]

Lol Signia for what it's worth, I'm nearly 25 years old.

 

[TheMrL]

Ho oh yeah, I've been disappointed plenty of times. There's like, one useful active thread to me on this entire board. This recent era of people talking about optimizing strategy and making real tutorial and tech videos and not silly "combo videos" is way over due. Day 1 in Soul Calibur I was getting useful info on their forums, and surprise surprise, the meta healthily progressed and I got good at the game. I only check rarely, but there is maybe one thing worth reading every year on Smashboards, and I can tell because garbage like this gets praise. Y'all are a joke, and it's fun to **** on half-baked theory, the kind that used keep me a bad player. It's like reading the "I don't understand why Ganon is in the middle of the tiers" copy paste for the first time again and again. I need to win this fight? I'm just having fun.

You still haven't answered my question though, did you read the whole thing before defending it? I doubt you did Mr. cool black smoker guy.

Anyway, to anyone reading this, if you want to improve and learn cool things about yourself and the game, read ****in anything but smashboards! The stuff I linked, Inner Game of Tennis, Flow, blogs like DruggedFox's and Wobbles and even that rando Milwaukee puff player. Maybe read Magus post history and top player advice threads.

WOAAAHHH PUPPY!!! I am VERY upset I didn't meet you a few months ago. You made EXCELLENT remarks in your posts I mean, they would have been STUPENDOUS for when I was studying for finals in my final year of a 7 year degree in Asshole-ology (at Yale no less) embarassingly, I passed with only a 77%, but had I met you prior I could expect a 95 or higher. There are, essentially, two types of assholes important to studies. The Ignoramus, and the Jerkus-diplococcus. This masters degree isn't for nothing, you are clearly an ignoramus. You are quite experianced as well, it would seem. Never once have I read of one of your kind who could so quickly miss the entire point of a post, and veer it off track to criticize irrelevant pieces. And the precision with how you executed these insults. You certainly aren't a mountain troll prepped with "your mom" or "dumbass". You've clearly come equipped with the best of your aresenal, discrete referances to vague places with "better" information on the "same" subject. And the name calling. You beautifully avoided points and executed a frame perfect insult counter attack. You used a perfect mix of rude, vulgar swears and childish "play fight" insults to keep your opponent guessing. Oh, Oh, and comparing two games with 0 similarities, and claiming the entirety of smashboards is "garbage" or "a joke". Beautiful. However, this is where I question your experiance in Ignoramustry. You have done a newfie, newfie mistake, in claiming a thing or place trash, yet you reside there and repeatedly reply. Tsk, TSK. If not for that, I may have given you the prize


Also, Signia you talked very highly of the soul calibur community. However, I can 100% call you out on your lies. Because, if you are so involved in it, it obviously has to have a bottom tier community.

 

[Virusbleumage]

Signia is a very valued and respected member of the community. His endless knowledge, superhuman wisdom, and unparalleled helpfulness to top players and newcomers alike have earned him a status that can only be matched by God himself. He's also really cool. Don't believe me? Look at this quote from him:

"right now you look to be embarrassingly wrong."

Some people like to discourage newcomers and point out their mistakes, but not Signia. He makes them feel welcomed and sets them on the path to enlightenment. If he was any nicer I know for a fact he would personally adopt some of the people that need help around here.

Signia is also primarily a smash 4 player, which aids in his ability to give melee advice. But when he's not in the smash 4 boards, he's unleashing a flood of knowledge that could knock down the Great Wall:

The FACT is that the Earth rotates around the Sun is true, but if you believe it otherwise, then i can't say you are wrong to do so.

Even I learned something from him. All this time, I was under the impression that the Earth revolved around the Sun. Boy, was I stupid. Clearly, it rotates.

Here are some more great posts by him for all you non-believers:

everything you just said there doesn't matter.

Uhhh I already addressed this... with the quote in the same post, no less...

Lmao please stop posting

Sure, you can define "opinions" to be views of the world, but a view may still be inaccurate. "Opinions" are judgements or statements that may or may not be based on facts. And last I checked, "judgements" can be poor and statements can be incorrect. Similarly, so can opinions.

Beliefs can be wrong, what's wrong with you?

And this is only from the melee boards. Imagine his contributions to smash 4. Better yet, don't imagine that. Spare yourself the mental strain. His knowledge and helpfulness cannot be fathomed by mortals.

 

[Hunybear]

Signia is a very valued and respected member of the community. His endless knowledge, superhuman wisdom, and unparalleled helpfulness to top players and newcomers alike have earned him a status that can only be matched by God himself. He's also really cool. Don't believe me? Look at this quote from him:

"right now you look to be embarrassingly wrong."

Some people like to discourage newcomers and point out their mistakes, but not Signia. He makes them feel welcomed and sets them on the path to enlightenment. If he was any nicer I know for a fact he would personally adopt some of the people that need help around here.

Signia is also primarily a smash 4 player, which aids in his ability to give melee advice. But when he's not in the smash 4 boards, he's unleashing a flood of knowledge that could knock down the Great Wall:



Even I learned something from him. All this time, I was under the impression that the Earth revolved around the Sun. Boy, was I stupid. Clearly, it rotates.

Here are some more great posts by him for all you non-believers:











And this is only from the melee boards. Imagine his contributions to smash 4. Better yet, don't imagine that. Spare yourself the mental strain. His knowledge and helpfulness cannot be fathomed by mortals.

Evidence.zip


In any which case amazing post by A_Reverie

 

[xXadevs2000Xx]

Signia

This recent era of people talking about optimizing strategy and making real tutorial and tech videos and not silly "combo videos" is way over due

Oh thanks babe, here's my post on how Marth's can optimize their techchase game on missed tech by utilizing CC to open up potential for combos, grabs and kill options <3
http://smashboards.com/threads/guide-marth-cc-to-techchase-missed-tech.435135/#post-21102218


And how dare you all insult the great Signia, with at least 7 years of useful Melee experience that puts him above all of you!
He is the definition of optimal, every action of his is purposeful and deliberate.

I watched one set of his, and I saw the light.
https://youtu.be/5XoiwYBefBk?t=17s
You can see that he has mastered the "triangle jump" ability and is utilizing it to throw off his opponent!

https://youtu.be/5XoiwYBefBk?t=22s
Tournament winner, because Signia knows how to win a tournament.
OPTIMAL GAMEPLAY

https://youtu.be/5XoiwYBefBk?t=24s
Let's not forget that amazing tool in Marth's arsenal, usmash. Truly, Signia has mastered the most useful of all of Marth's tools to the fullest.

Now, this is only 25 seconds into the video, but we can already see how Signia's experience has lead him to optimize his gameplay far above anyone else's.
All of this indeed gives him the profoundness and capability to be a complete ****.

 

[-ACE-]

Well I can certainly see why Signia needs a good neutral game guide.

Also, V Virusbleumage killing me with that "earth ROTATES around the Sun" line... Lmao.

 

[the wizard howl]

I think that a lot of the vocabulary you've put forth is too vague or too far from game mechanics. Because of this a lot of it is inefficient or incomplete. The goal for any writing about a game should be to achieve a vocabulary that is useful, comprehensive, and efficient. This vocabulary set isn't especially any of these.
Signia is rude but he isn't wrong on many points.
Your quantifying advantage section is the most interesting proposition but I don't think it's a well-built model because it doesn't stand up to nuance (e.g. being on side platform is not a meaningful disadvantage for puff much of the time) and in order to be strictly accurate you'd have to add too many more variables to easily calculate. That's a good illustration for the shortcomings of many of these assumptions.

 

[A_Reverie]

I think that a lot of the vocabulary you've put forth is too vague or too far from game mechanics. Because of this a lot of it is inefficient or incomplete. The goal for any writing about a game should be to achieve a vocabulary that is useful, comprehensive, and efficient. This vocabulary set isn't especially any of these.
Signia is rude but he isn't wrong on many points.
Your quantifying advantage section is the most interesting proposition but I don't think it's a well-built model because it doesn't stand up to nuance (e.g. being on side platform is not a meaningful disadvantage for puff much of the time) and in order to be strictly accurate you'd have to add too many more variables to easily calculate. That's a good illustration for the shortcomings of many of these assumptions.

I agree with your criticisms. I do believe I could have been more specific on a lot of things, but again the goal of this post was not to be the be-all-end-all of anything. Writing it at all has already helped my game immensely. I sought to try to set certain actions apart from others because it's harder to determine why players at top level do a move by just simply looking at it. My goal here was to get the ball rolling on using different terms to explain the whys and hows. It's work I'll continue to refine but I believe I've made a good start.

Regarding advantage, the numbers I listed are not objective. The negatives I assigned to Puff weren't meant to be considered as "meaningful disadvantage" but the fact remains that it does change the way Puff acts, even if it's just a slight degree. I was just showing how different factors contribute to this change. You are correct in the sense that in that matchup it's not a major change.

 

[-ACE-]

The criticisms may be true, but I could point out flaws in just about any guide to neutral game. It's such a deep subject that any guide's #1 goal shouldn't be to lay out all the "answers" but to get people thinking in the right direction. All the top players approach neutral differently and all of them see success. This is still a great contribution to the community and people who take the time to and effort to write up guides like this should be shown at least some degree of respect. Neutral game isn't learned overnight, you need to be constantly learning and applying principles and methods, experimenting, and continuing to learn. Anything you can learn from is good.

 

[Signia]

The criticisms may be true, but I could point out flaws in just about any guide to neutral game. It's such a deep subject that any guide's #1 goal shouldn't be to lay out all the "answers" but to get people thinking in the right direction. All the top players approach neutral differently and all of them see success. This is still a great contribution to the community and people who take the time to and effort to write up guides like this should be shown at least some degree of respect. Neutral game isn't learned overnight, you need to be constantly learning and applying principles and methods, experimenting, and continuing to learn. Anything you can learn from is good.

Lol, sure, the point isn't being right, he deserves credit for those 5k words!

I'll admit I'm being a ****, but please. That attitude is not in the competitive gaming spirit.

V Virusbleumage LOL I played Smash 4 for like 3 months. And none of what you quoted was wrong aside from mixing up "rotating" and "revolving." Really grasping at straws, aren't you?

xXadevs2000Xx The only thing I learned from that guide was crouch cancel percents against getup attacks, so thanks, I guess.

About that match video, I was coming off of a bit of a hiatus, and you won't find any of my Melee play that's recorded that I would consider exemplary. Not that I'm very good... but my understanding comes from players far better than you or me and with the help of good old solid logic. And when you are talking about the neutral game, you are not just talking about Melee, you are talking about human perception, which is why similar versions of the neutral game have been conceived in martial arts and other fighting games. Anyway, Melee is not even my main game, try some other videos (where I am still usually recorded losing, but in top 8). At least I am decent at something...

 

[xXadevs2000Xx]

The only thing I learned from that guide was crouch cancel percents against getup attacks, so thanks, I guess.

https://gfycat.com/WiltedWellgroomedAfricanwildcat

plz

About that match video, I was coming off of a bit of a hiatus

Irrelevant to me and I don't care.

Not that I'm very good... but my understanding comes from players far better than you or me

Understanding should lead to greater gameplay.

Anyway, Melee is not even my main game

Irrelevant to me and I don't care.

At least I am decent at something

Sure, go do your self gratification somewhere else, it's not relevant to the topic.

 

[-ACE-]

Lol, sure, the point isn't being right, he deserves credit for those 5k words!

I've seen some of your posts in the Marth boards, lol. You're rarely right, often a ****, and usually command respect for no apparent reason. It's pretty funny since your gameplay and game knowledge are sub par to say the least. And you get mad af when someone else gets a tiny bit of praise, acting like a little b**** lol. Congrats on thinking you're the only one that can point out flaws in a guide to neutral game. I'm sure you'd write your own guide if you were good or smart enough.

 

[Signia]

Came back here to say: it's worth noting that my criticisms pulled nothing from my Melee knowledge. So my skill level at Melee is irrelevant.

Understanding should lead to greater gameplay.

Not necessarily, you still have to be able to apply what you know and execute what you want to do. Classic theory fighter pitfall.

Sure, go do your self gratification somewhere else, it's not relevant to the topic.

You criticized me for my skill level, was THAT relevant to the topic? And now it's irrelevant when I defend myself? LOL

-ACE- Hah, resorting to name-calling. Nice job attacking everything BUT what points I'm making. Ayyy that's a tu quoque, even if I've said dumb stuff, that doesn't mean it's okay when he does it! And who's the "b****" here?? You're just whining about my tone and running from the argument by attacking my character.

Someone saying something dumb isn't alarming to me, they can just be dumb. When people agree with them and nobody is going to correct them, then I feel the need to say something.

And yeah, I'm a scrub at Melee, that's why I'm not writing Melee guides! That's the point!

 

[xXadevs2000Xx]

Not necessarily, you still have to be able to apply what you know and execute what you want to do. Classic theory fighter pitfall.

So what was going through your mind when you made that usmash, tournament winner or triangle jump?

You criticized me for my skill level, was THAT relevant to the topic? And now it's irrelevant when I defend myself? LOL

Just found it funny that you were talking about optimizing gameplay and the first VOD I find from your was like that lmao

And yeah, I'm a scrub at Melee, that's why I'm not writing Melee guides! That's the point!

Well you appear to claim superior neutral knowledge, so go enlighten someone.

 

[-ACE-]

Signia maybe you should re-read. You were the one whining about the OP, and I never called you a b****, I said you were acting like one.



Wonder why it says I got a warning for this post when really, I got a 2 point infraction. Interesting!

 

[Cyn]

Please stop the flaming/trolling. First and only warning. If the conversation can not move forward, I will lock it.

 

[tsmfoxmaster]

Great guide!!

 

[Emblem Lord]

This guide makes me smile. Lots of great conceptualization and explanation.

 

[Goginha]

why is this a ....................... ???

 

[Eremurus]

why is this a ....................... ???

OP decided he didn't want to share that information anymore.