- Aug 26, 2015
All episodes of the new Smash Brothers documentary 'Metagame' are available on Vimeo! Get Metagame Here
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
Support Smashboards and get Premium Membership today!
Sweet summer child... you are not ready to be making write-ups. You've only been playing Melee seriously for a little over a year! You need less writing, more reading:A little about me: I've been playing competitive Smash for about 2 years now, with Project M in 2014. Most of that time doing the basics and just getting the feel of the game. I didn't start dedicating myself to Melee until around February 2015.
Semantics. This goes without saying when I mentioned when someone has "more options." I'm not including options that are obviously unviable when I mention maintaining advantage, but I will amend my post to be more specific.Advantage is not "having more options." What if all your options suck?
Advantage is when your options are better, as in they have better risk/reward.
I wasn't attempting to claim that the analysis of neutral has never been done before, just not to the same extent as other fields of the game such as punish. Even the concepts in the post you linked were ones I specifically intended to expand upon. Even that post you linked uses vague terminology to describe spacing concepts. I believe it can be narrowed down even further through examining the different thought processes that go into "closing the gap" or in being "forced to approach." The distinctions I've made here are only the beginning of what I've come up with and my intention was simply to share.Advantage is not "having more options." Anyway, that's just one place this write-up is lacking. You've defined some useful distinctions well but others not so well and it's all without proper fundamental grounding, requiring a million examples. It's very 2008 Smashboards, actually. It's all been done before: http://smashboards.com/threads/zoning-spacing-and-other-fundamentals.302678/
While I appreciate feedback, there's really no reason to be so condescending. Normally I wouldn't respond to comments like this, but it simply serves no use but to attempt to belittle me for having played for a shorter time than you deem necessary to pen ideas down. There are many more resources for Melee players to use in their improvement these days, and the growth I've achieved in a year (that many others have achieved as well) is different than that of a year's experience in 2010.Sweet summer child... you are not ready to be making write-ups. You've only been playing Melee seriously for a little over a year! You need less writing, more reading
There is a time and place for the concepts featured in Domination 101. I've read it before and my post has nothing to do with mindset, so I question whether or not you actually read my post.DOMINATION 101
http://risingthunder.wikia.com/wiki/Domination_101_(article_series) <-convenient list
The genesis of the fighting game thought.
"A lot of the concepts–even the basics of how we understand fighting game strategy today–had never been analyzed or even written down before. Looking back, I’m surprised at how the concepts and even the terminology has stuck around to today. Of course it could have been done better, but at that time nobody was talking like that about fighting games or thinking about things systematically.
It’s not like people were talking about controlling space or explaining the Ume-Shoryu at the time–it just wasn’t happening. Much like now, the discussion was centered around particular things like wake-up strategies for a certain character, or option selects, with nobody really talking about what it meant in general, or the way psychology (beyond simple yomi) factors into the match."
The neutral game but for japanese martial arts.
A decent analysis off the top of my head that relates to Melee:
And of course there's more out there. "rarely expanded upon" my ***.
It's not under-discussed at all. It's been done before in much better ways, that's why I linked some random blog that does it better. I don't think a "perfect" approach really makes sense but it sure as hell isn't subjective, either. Some guides are better than others. Not everyone deserves a pat on the back just for typing a whole lot (jesus, 4927 words).
Ho oh yeah, I've been disappointed plenty of times. There's like, one useful active thread to me on this entire board. This recent era of people talking about optimizing strategy and making real tutorial and tech videos and not silly "combo videos" is way over due. Day 1 in Soul Calibur I was getting useful info on their forums, and surprise surprise, the meta healthily progressed and I got good at the game. I only check rarely, but there is maybe one thing worth reading every year on Smashboards, and I can tell because garbage like this gets praise. Y'all are a joke, and it's fun to **** on half-baked theory, the kind that used keep me a bad player. It's like reading the "I don't understand why Ganon is in the middle of the tiers" copy paste for the first time again and again. I need to win this fight? I'm just having fun.Signia So you expected the world from melee discussion, I see now. Your smashboards experience must have been riddled with disappointment over the years, lol. Also, neutral game isn't discussed as much or to the same degree as edgeguarding, punish game, defense, spacing, etc etc... So I'm not sure how you can say it's not under-discussed considering its importance. But I'll let you get back to fighting the good fight, you seem to really need this one.
WOAAAHHH PUPPY!!! I am VERY upset I didn't meet you a few months ago. You made EXCELLENT remarks in your posts I mean, they would have been STUPENDOUS for when I was studying for finals in my final year of a 7 year degree in Asshole-ology (at Yale no less) embarassingly, I passed with only a 77%, but had I met you prior I could expect a 95 or higher. There are, essentially, two types of assholes important to studies. The Ignoramus, and the Jerkus-diplococcus. This masters degree isn't for nothing, you are clearly an ignoramus. You are quite experianced as well, it would seem. Never once have I read of one of your kind who could so quickly miss the entire point of a post, and veer it off track to criticize irrelevant pieces. And the precision with how you executed these insults. You certainly aren't a mountain troll prepped with "your mom" or "dumbass". You've clearly come equipped with the best of your aresenal, discrete referances to vague places with "better" information on the "same" subject. And the name calling. You beautifully avoided points and executed a frame perfect insult counter attack. You used a perfect mix of rude, vulgar swears and childish "play fight" insults to keep your opponent guessing. Oh, Oh, and comparing two games with 0 similarities, and claiming the entirety of smashboards is "garbage" or "a joke". Beautiful. However, this is where I question your experiance in Ignoramustry. You have done a newfie, newfie mistake, in claiming a thing or place trash, yet you reside there and repeatedly reply. Tsk, TSK. If not for that, I may have given you the prizeHo oh yeah, I've been disappointed plenty of times. There's like, one useful active thread to me on this entire board. This recent era of people talking about optimizing strategy and making real tutorial and tech videos and not silly "combo videos" is way over due. Day 1 in Soul Calibur I was getting useful info on their forums, and surprise surprise, the meta healthily progressed and I got good at the game. I only check rarely, but there is maybe one thing worth reading every year on Smashboards, and I can tell because garbage like this gets praise. Y'all are a joke, and it's fun to **** on half-baked theory, the kind that used keep me a bad player. It's like reading the "I don't understand why Ganon is in the middle of the tiers" copy paste for the first time again and again. I need to win this fight? I'm just having fun.
You still haven't answered my question though, did you read the whole thing before defending it? I doubt you did Mr. cool black smoker guy.
Anyway, to anyone reading this, if you want to improve and learn cool things about yourself and the game, read ****in anything but smashboards! The stuff I linked, Inner Game of Tennis, Flow, blogs like DruggedFox's and Wobbles and even that rando Milwaukee puff player. Maybe read Magus post history and top player advice threads.
Even I learned something from him. All this time, I was under the impression that the Earth revolved around the Sun. Boy, was I stupid. Clearly, it rotates.The FACT is that the Earth rotates around the Sun is true, but if you believe it otherwise, then i can't say you are wrong to do so.
everything you just said there doesn't matter.
Uhhh I already addressed this... with the quote in the same post, no less...
Lmao please stop posting
Sure, you can define "opinions" to be views of the world, but a view may still be inaccurate. "Opinions" are judgements or statements that may or may not be based on facts. And last I checked, "judgements" can be poor and statements can be incorrect. Similarly, so can opinions.
And this is only from the melee boards. Imagine his contributions to smash 4. Better yet, don't imagine that. Spare yourself the mental strain. His knowledge and helpfulness cannot be fathomed by mortals.Beliefs can be wrong, what's wrong with you?
Evidence.zipSignia is a very valued and respected member of the community. His endless knowledge, superhuman wisdom, and unparalleled helpfulness to top players and newcomers alike have earned him a status that can only be matched by God himself. He's also really cool. Don't believe me? Look at this quote from him:
"right now you look to be embarrassingly wrong."
Some people like to discourage newcomers and point out their mistakes, but not Signia. He makes them feel welcomed and sets them on the path to enlightenment. If he was any nicer I know for a fact he would personally adopt some of the people that need help around here.
Signia is also primarily a smash 4 player, which aids in his ability to give melee advice. But when he's not in the smash 4 boards, he's unleashing a flood of knowledge that could knock down the Great Wall:
Even I learned something from him. All this time, I was under the impression that the Earth revolved around the Sun. Boy, was I stupid. Clearly, it rotates.
Here are some more great posts by him for all you non-believers:
And this is only from the melee boards. Imagine his contributions to smash 4. Better yet, don't imagine that. Spare yourself the mental strain. His knowledge and helpfulness cannot be fathomed by mortals.
Oh thanks babe, here's my post on how Marth's can optimize their techchase game on missed tech by utilizing CC to open up potential for combos, grabs and kill options <3This recent era of people talking about optimizing strategy and making real tutorial and tech videos and not silly "combo videos" is way over due
I agree with your criticisms. I do believe I could have been more specific on a lot of things, but again the goal of this post was not to be the be-all-end-all of anything. Writing it at all has already helped my game immensely. I sought to try to set certain actions apart from others because it's harder to determine why players at top level do a move by just simply looking at it. My goal here was to get the ball rolling on using different terms to explain the whys and hows. It's work I'll continue to refine but I believe I've made a good start.I think that a lot of the vocabulary you've put forth is too vague or too far from game mechanics. Because of this a lot of it is inefficient or incomplete. The goal for any writing about a game should be to achieve a vocabulary that is useful, comprehensive, and efficient. This vocabulary set isn't especially any of these.
Signia is rude but he isn't wrong on many points.
Your quantifying advantage section is the most interesting proposition but I don't think it's a well-built model because it doesn't stand up to nuance (e.g. being on side platform is not a meaningful disadvantage for puff much of the time) and in order to be strictly accurate you'd have to add too many more variables to easily calculate. That's a good illustration for the shortcomings of many of these assumptions.
Lol, sure, the point isn't being right, he deserves credit for those 5k words!The criticisms may be true, but I could point out flaws in just about any guide to neutral game. It's such a deep subject that any guide's #1 goal shouldn't be to lay out all the "answers" but to get people thinking in the right direction. All the top players approach neutral differently and all of them see success. This is still a great contribution to the community and people who take the time to and effort to write up guides like this should be shown at least some degree of respect. Neutral game isn't learned overnight, you need to be constantly learning and applying principles and methods, experimenting, and continuing to learn. Anything you can learn from is good.
https://gfycat.com/WiltedWellgroomedAfricanwildcatThe only thing I learned from that guide was crouch cancel percents against getup attacks, so thanks, I guess.
Irrelevant to me and I don't care.About that match video, I was coming off of a bit of a hiatus
Understanding should lead to greater gameplay.Not that I'm very good... but my understanding comes from players far better than you or me
Irrelevant to me and I don't care.Anyway, Melee is not even my main game
Sure, go do your self gratification somewhere else, it's not relevant to the topic.At least I am decent at something
I've seen some of your posts in the Marth boards, lol. You're rarely right, often a ****, and usually command respect for no apparent reason. It's pretty funny since your gameplay and game knowledge are sub par to say the least. And you get mad af when someone else gets a tiny bit of praise, acting like a little b**** lol. Congrats on thinking you're the only one that can point out flaws in a guide to neutral game. I'm sure you'd write your own guide if you were good or smart enough.Lol, sure, the point isn't being right, he deserves credit for those 5k words!
Not necessarily, you still have to be able to apply what you know and execute what you want to do. Classic theory fighter pitfall.Understanding should lead to greater gameplay.
You criticized me for my skill level, was THAT relevant to the topic? And now it's irrelevant when I defend myself? LOLSure, go do your self gratification somewhere else, it's not relevant to the topic.
So what was going through your mind when you made that usmash, tournament winner or triangle jump?Not necessarily, you still have to be able to apply what you know and execute what you want to do. Classic theory fighter pitfall.
Just found it funny that you were talking about optimizing gameplay and the first VOD I find from your was like that lmaoYou criticized me for my skill level, was THAT relevant to the topic? And now it's irrelevant when I defend myself? LOL
Well you appear to claim superior neutral knowledge, so go enlighten someone.And yeah, I'm a scrub at Melee, that's why I'm not writing Melee guides! That's the point!