3.6 lucario discussion

[redcometchar]

guys 3.6 lucario's new run animation is soo SICK
somebody teach me how to play this character

Hold up taunt
$$$$$$$$$$$$$

 

[AkashSky]

I've an idea for the upB. I feel that not being able to air-dodge out of upB for recovery makes sense. However This takes away a lot of onstage uses (such as wave-landing to chase or wait and see what your opponent does).

what if Lucario could air-dodge out of upB cancel if he still had his double-jump or if he upBs from the ground. This would retain its onstage offensive uses while still removing the recovery option of the air-dodge.

other thoughts:

I feel that having ASC IASA being 6 instead of 8 would be beneficial. Its still a nerf to the ASC from 3.5, but it makes short hop -> wave-bounce/b-reversal ASC -> fair/dair/uair/wave-land/perfect-land more lenient. Having those movement and attack options were some of my favorite things about Lucario in the previous patch. I'd be a shame to lose most of those options.

I think the uptaunt damage is a bit much, 5% for each 5 aura points is not worth it. The idea behind it is good; a tradeoff of aura for damage, makes one think about it. I think itd be good to have the first charge up give 5% damage, then 3%, then 1%. Or if that is to little, have it build up to 5% damage.

I agree with all the other changes, or at least I don't mind them (except the dash/run animations, but that is just a cosmetic thing).
​

Currently, if you extremespeed from the ground, you can jump into an air dodge, or extremespeed again. Lucario can only not air dodge from extremespeed if you use it while not grounded.

Also, I disagree in that 5% damage is a bit much, its actually perfectly to scale. 10% to your enemy gives you 10 aura, 10% to yourself gives you 10 aura. Yeah, its true that the 10% you inflict to yourself can put you in kill zone, but it can also put you outside of a kill zone in certain match ups. It really adds strategy to when you should be taunting or not. Also, you can choose to taunt when you know you need only ~5 more points to have a charge. An aura charge used in the correct place at the correct time leads to a stock.

 

[LupinX]

From what I tested, the new lucario uses alot of u-smash and DT in his gameplay. The ASC are used for spaced f-air, u-air and smashes. u-tilt-ASC is when you get a confirmed hit, not anymore a shield pressure mechanic, same with u-smash ASC. Lucario has to play more campy then ever and has to pull off stock combos when he gets a chance. What do you guys think? Have you guys discovered anything?

 

[Thor]

Does anyone else find his new run kinda dumb looking? What was wrong with his run before?

I think it was "too good" in some MUs.

One example is that Link's boomerang hitbox actually shrinks after it's been out for a few frames. Lucario's old run animation was short enough to actually run under a boomerang that had the smaller hitbox, meaning you could literally run underneath a returning boomerang... which sort of defeated the purpose of throwing a grounded boomerang.

Link mains adapted by SH and angle it down, but it's just sort of dumb that it worked like that. I think the tweak was to make his run make more sense in some MUs [it doesn't make sense that if I throw something at you at ground level, you're able to just run right at me without even ducking and it misses].

Incidentally, for some reason his new animation reminds me of Sly Cooper.

As a Lucario backup, the only thing that I find a bit sad is the change to DT and the airdodge after ESC removal. A bunch of the Link mains were talking about how if they were fast, they could literally spin attack DT on reaction and not fear a punish, due to 12-frame startup + no invincibility on a cancelled move. It also means someone just spamming SHFFL nairs is actually a bit tricky to get in on, since a well-timed nair now beats out any double team [I can read a DT with nair instead of with run away]. I think tweaking it so that invincibility lasted until the first hibox came out would've been very interesting - technically buff to DT fsmash, but it means that Lucario has to hit precisely with the first hitbox or it can be interrupted, while making some things like DT dair and DT fair easier to intercept than they were. It would also then nerf DT utilt and allow nairs to stuff it, since utilt comes out behind him, and I think that was one thing they were looking to nerf.

As for the airdodge loss... spending an entire aura charge on one airdodge, especially with how it doesn't build on shields, hardly strikes me as strategic. I feel like it's a very fair tradeoff having to spend one aura charge for an airdodge, considering it often is the case that spending one charge on a DT cancel can net a stock if you're perfect, due to generating aura mid-combo [so aura charges = stocks?], but that's neither here nor there.

 

[purplebird]

Currently, if you extremespeed from the ground, you can jump into an air dodge, or extremespeed again. Lucario can only not air dodge from extremespeed if you use it while not grounded.

That's true, I guess I am more interested to being able to air-dodge from the and upB starterd in air, say being able to air-dodge on the upB cancel if you still have the double jump, however it burns that double jump.

Also, I disagree in that 5% damage is a bit much, its actually perfectly to scale. 10% to your enemy gives you 10 aura, 10% to yourself gives you 10 aura. Yeah, its true that the 10% you inflict to yourself can put you in kill zone, but it can also put you outside of a kill zone in certain match ups. It really adds strategy to when you should be taunting or not. Also, you can choose to taunt when you know you need only ~5 more points to have a charge. An aura charge used in the correct place at the correct time leads to a stock.

Ah that is true, hadn't thought about it deeply enough. I do like the strategy bit, thanks!

 

[Zoa]

I was testing the ES thing myself, but apparently you can't air dodge to recover at all. Even using ESC -> DJ doesn't allow you to air dodge to recover. There was a weekly here yesterday, and I can't tell you the number of times I got punished attempting to use DTC as an approach. Those 10 intangibility frames really made a difference in previous patches. I have a gut feeling DTC is going to lose its approach qualities now.

Anyways I wanna ask the rest of you a question about the vanilla Brawl speed FCAS idea I'm advocating. Do you guys feel it would help make up for some of the neutral hits Luc took? I talked to a couple of buddies about how it might affect certain MU, and they said they think it would actually add to Luc's creativity. By giving a fully charged AS vanilla Brawl speed it could help us better control neutral in some MU. We would retain the slow 15% AS when it's mostly charged, but by adding an increased speed AS it could help force things out of the opponent that Luc seems to lack.

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

Incoming anecdotal ramble:

Not allowing Lucario to air-dodge on stage turned his too-good recovery into something completely inflexible when you are below the stage. I think it's inconsistent that Lucario ended up taking this hit where characters like Snake can still keep trading damage until they are center stage. Everyone needs their recoveries in line with Melee, not just Lucario. Still, I'll take that nerf because he needed it. It was too easy to recover even against really decent players.

There isn't any strategy to Aura-charging with the taunt. It's just like the old taunt: The most optimal decision will almost always be obvious to an experienced player. Hell, you have from the time the opponent dies until the time they respawn to think about it. However, consider in this new version that it's not really optimal to take 20% damage for 20% aura because the enemy will be at zero percent when you spawn, so you can just gain enough aura back on the initial combo. FP even gives you charge now! You'll still run into the problem that an enemy will just cc the initial percents but an aura charge won't save you there.

Lucario's saving grave for me will be when you move him from being a character that is a god at auto-comboing fast fallers/heavies (like EVERY non-Melee A/B tiers touched by that devs) to a being a good general combo character and fix his trash neutral. Also, make landing a kill move at high percents not a headache. At high % you run out of gas to get aura and additionally it seems like many characters don't even have to really try to DI/SDI out of up-smash to get out of up-smash now. D-tilt > ASC > Up-Air is probably 70% of my kills on non-fast fallers. Trying to trade to get that down tilt is hell a lot of times because characters like Samus and Mr. G&W just trounce Lucario in the cc department. CC is so stupid lethal on Lucario by these characters.

 

[666blaziken]

Just yesterday, IPK got in 2nd place in san diego and only lost to lucky (who is considered top 3 best pm players at the moment), so if he can get around all the nerfs, I think we all can too.

 

[AkashSky]

I was testing the ES thing myself, but apparently you can't air dodge to recover at all. Even using ESC -> DJ doesn't allow you to air dodge to recover. There was a weekly here yesterday, and I can't tell you the number of times I got punished attempting to use DTC as an approach. Those 10 intangibility frames really made a difference in previous patches. I have a gut feeling DTC is going to lose its approach qualities now.

Anyways I wanna ask the rest of you a question about the vanilla Brawl speed FCAS idea I'm advocating. Do you guys feel it would help make up for some of the neutral hits Luc took? I talked to a couple of buddies about how it might affect certain MU, and they said they think it would actually add to Luc's creativity. By giving a fully charged AS vanilla Brawl speed it could help us better control neutral in some MU. We would retain the slow 15% AS when it's mostly charged, but by adding an increased speed AS it could help force things out of the opponent that Luc seems to lack.

I don't think it will help all that much because of the lag you have when you just straight up throw it. For lucario's neutral to be good, he needs an approach tool, (what DTC was). Charging aura sphere takes a second or two as well. If you could throw it and then waveland to your enemy i could see it working. Also, if your opponent power shields it, you kinda lose your positional advantage, (unless you powershield it back).

 

[Zoa]

I don't think it will help all that much because of the lag you have when you just straight up throw it. For lucario's neutral to be good, he needs an approach tool, (what DTC was). Charging aura sphere takes a second or two as well. If you could throw it and then waveland to your enemy i could see it working. Also, if your opponent power shields it, you kinda lose your positional advantage, (unless you powershield it back).

Actually the point of the speed increase is to help force things out of the opponent. With all the ASC we do it can be stored off a conversion. I'm still running all these possible applications through my head as well, so it's still an idea in the rough.

 

[LupinX]

How do you time up-special cancel to nair? It feels different this patch

 

[HK_Spadez]

ugh. now when you up B into a grounded opponent and you aura cancel. you end up airborn...

can no longer up B -> aura cancel into grounded mixup. that kind of annoys me

i totally agree with everyone else here. 3.5 lucario was already meh, and now 3.6? I mostly play melee but PM lucario has always been the main draw for me in PM. and they **** all over him even tho he isnt even THAT good.

Idk. this nerf seemed really uncalled for.

 

[Giygacoal]

In my opinion, it would make more sense to just nerf the number of aura points yielded from the taunt, rather than make Lucario hurt himself. It wouldn't be much different from Samus's, DK's, and Lucas's neutral B charges.

 

[Akkien]

"Lucario is a character that has to manage resources" (Not an actual quote but I've seen PMDT members say similar things)

I think trading damage for aura is fine and fits exactly what they say. The taunt's most logical use is when your own percentage is high; it would make it harder for other characters to combo you and you're likely to die from a kill move either way so I don't think the new taunt is anything too bad, you just have to use it wisely instead of doing it by reflex everytime you get a stock.

About AS, I really like the idea of it being a little faster. Right now it's really underused and I think it being slow really influences that. Most of the time Lucario needs to wait for the opponent to make a mistake to get in, so I think it would help a lot if we could use it like this:

Actually the point of the speed increase is to help force things out of the opponent. With all the ASC we do it can be stored off a conversion.

 

[LupinX]

Do you guys know how to time up-b cancels? When I hit them with up-b they suddenly fly away. Should I cancel faster near my opponent?

 

[purplebird]

here was a weekly here yesterday, and I can't tell you the number of times I got punished attempting to use DTC as an approach. Those 10 intangibility frames really made a difference in previous patches. I have a gut feeling DTC is going to lose its approach qualities now.

My take on DTC is that it was never intended to be an approach, which the intangibility on it in previous matches made that pointless, but it is still a phenomenal punish tool, which is basically Lucario. And you can still approach per-say with down-B, just dont cancel it and cross them up. It works well when used with thought.

In general I feel Lucarios in general used the DTC intangibility as a crutch in previous builds, now I think as a whole playing as Lucario will promote more thought-out play

 

[Giygacoal]

My take on DTC is that it was never intended to be an approach

Well, it was recommended by PMBR Lucario players back in the 2.0 series builds days.

 

[InfinityCollision]

3.5 lucario was already meh

Wait, when did top 10 become "meh"?

He went from being ASC: The Character to Mahvel: PM Edition. He's still Lucario, ie still a fundamentally solid character. The only change I don't really "get" from this patch right now (besides the new dash/run animations, which are really unappealing) is the reworked utaunt. It feels like an awkward mix of his Brawl/SSB4 and PM mechanics.

 

[purplebird]

Well, it was recommended by PMBR Lucario players back in the 2.0 series builds days.

yea true, but that's still goes with my idea of it being a crutch back then, albeit an unknown one really. Either way I think the change to remove intangibility from DTC is a good one. Though I really like the idea some one had (sorry forget who's it is) to still have intangibly but only on the first frame the hitboxes are active.

 

[Zoa]

My take on DTC is that it was never intended to be an approach, which the intangibility on it in previous matches made that pointless, but it is still a phenomenal punish tool, which is basically Lucario. And you can still approach per-say with down-B, just dont cancel it and cross them up. It works well when used with thought.

In general I feel Lucarios in general used the DTC intangibility as a crutch in previous builds, now I think as a whole playing as Lucario will promote more thought-out play

I think I should specify. I meant as an occasional mix up tool to approach. Most of the time it's DD. Losing the 10 additional intangibility frames really put that much of a dent into the potential approach mix up options it had during that weekly.

 

[EmptySky00]

I think making him take 5% per 5 aura is a questionable change. All of the "bonuses" you get from the damage aren't real imo. Lucario does have to manage resources, but there's no reason to make him trade part of his stock for a little bit of aura between kills. Aura charge is his central mechanic so why are we making him slice his wrists to charge it? It just seems like it's gimmicky overbalancing to me. He already gains aura more slowly now, so when you get a kill I don't see an issue with him being able to amass his central resource. He still has to use it wisely but he gets a little extra from taking a stock.

Furthermore, P:M players have a really bad and irritating habit of severely underrating their characters. Write this down on your hand if you don't trust your head: you not being that good at your character doesn't make the character mediocre. Your experiences alone are not necessarily indicative of the character's abilities as a whole. Lucario was a very strong character last version with some game breaking attributes. Don't make the mistake of deluding yourself into thinking that he was bad. I've done this in the past as well. I didn't realize how good my character was until late 3.02. He was stupid good for a while, but I had to get good too to understand that.


And Fox's recovery did not get hit that hard @personupthere. Stop spreading misinformation please.

 

[LupinX]

Fox didn't even get hit hard period lol

And yes, Lucario's u-taunt change only works when you are close to blastzone range. Either than that, you keep that charge like dear life

 

[ruhtraeel]

Is anyone hating side-B now? It's hitting people way too far for me to follow up on.

I'm not exactly sure what it is, but a pretty much guaranteed combo in 3.5 at 0% was dash attack to force palm to SH f-air to either a jab into force palm or just a force palm. However, force palm seems to hit them way too far to do this anymore on characters that aren't Bowser/DDD/DK sized.

Against spacies, you can no longer dash attack to force palm to dash attack to force palm, because force palm will hit them too far away to get another dash attack in.

 

[Mavo]

the new running and aura animation look really stupid,the old ones were fine.
the up taunt is pretty ridiculous and is probably only useful when you know that you will get aura soon.but how can you know?

 

[Risky]

the new running and aura animation look really stupid,the old ones were fine.
the up taunt is pretty ridiculous and is probably only useful when you know that you will get aura soon.but how can you know?

Math.

 

[Strong Badam]

I think making him take 5% per 5 aura is a questionable change. All of the "bonuses" you get from the damage aren't real imo. Lucario does have to manage resources, but there's no reason to make him trade part of his stock for a little bit of aura between kills. Aura charge is his central mechanic so why are we making him slice his wrists to charge it? It just seems like it's gimmicky overbalancing to me. He already gains aura more slowly now, so when you get a kill I don't see an issue with him being able to amass his central resource. He still has to use it wisely but he gets a little extra from taking a stock.

Optimal play involving taunting multiple times every time you kill someone, or if opponent is full-screen/offstage and has to take a long time to recover (e.g. samus bomb jumping) is what's questionable. The taunt is now a neat easter egg as it was originally intended, rather than obviously the best thing to do a lot.

 

[Thor]

Optimal play involving taunting multiple times every time you kill someone, or if opponent is full-screen/offstage and has to take a long time to recover (e.g. samus bomb jumping) is what's questionable. The taunt is now a neat easter egg as it was originally intended, rather than obviously the best thing to do a lot.

Unless this mechanic was always there, it would have disappointed [but not surprised] me if they just straight-up removed it... no one else gets a strict bonus from taunting [Ganondorf, Luigi, and Ike's taunts are impractical, although I've landed Ike's in tournament play, unfortunately offstream] and it's not tied to a move he has [the way Lucas gives up another option to simply hold B to power up smashes] - if Lucario's neutral B did this, then I'd fully agree making it do damage is silly, but as is, I agree the change is good, even if I initially disliked it a lot.

 

[EmptySky00]

Optimal play involving taunting multiple times every time you kill someone, or if opponent is full-screen/offstage and has to take a long time to recover (e.g. samus bomb jumping) is what's questionable. The taunt is now a neat easter egg as it was originally intended, rather than obviously the best thing to do a lot.

Yes but it's an easter egg that feeds into his central mechanic. An easter egg that has practical use. How can you not expect it to be utilized? I wouldn't even call it an easter egg as much as a mechanic/tool that the character has at his disposal. No other character has to forfeit a chunk of their stock to charge anything. Ivysaur has a similar mechanic, albeit less versatile at its conclusion, and she can charge it between stocks and doesn't have to lose percent for doing it. I don't get why gaining some aura in such situations is questionable at all. Other characters have optimal play involving charging something between stocks so how is that even questionable? Lessen the rate of aura gain if it's that much of an issue. I just think the damage is hard unnecessary. And based on how you described it to me, the decision for the damage infliction wasn't made out of balancing logic, but some arbitrary ideology.

 

[Strong Badam]

based on how you described it to me, the decision for the damage infliction wasn't made out of balancing logic

Correct.

but some arbitrary ideology.

Every ideology is arbitrary to some degree, man. Doesn't make it wrong.

 

[EmptySky00]

Correct.

Every ideology is arbitrary to some degree, man. Doesn't make it wrong.

Well I literally can't argue with that. All I can say is it doesn't make it right either. You're just gimping a legitimate tool in his tool kit in a silly fashion and I don't agree with it. I think it would be fine if he was able to charge aura between stocks. That's really all I can say. I'm not the one in the design seat and all I can do is voice disapproval, which I've done. That's all folks.

 

[Gooch]

They made JC UpSmash -> Footstool not braindead with the fail window.

CURSE YOU PMDT ୧༼◔益◔╭∩╮༽

 

[Fearless]

What if we make another taunt heal him but use aura to balance out the aura control mechanic

 

[AkashSky]

What if we make another taunt heal him but use aura to balance out the aura control mechanic

I think thats an interesting suggestion; but I'm pretty sure that players who don't play lucario will mostly complain about it.

"I lost a stock and he lost instead of gained % damage!".

 

[Zoa]

I just realized something. With the charge hitbox of AS being pushed back to frame ten, and cancel framepushed back to frame eight, we shouldn't have anymore of those "ASCnopelolnoknockback" moments. That's a legitimate buff.

 

[LupinX]

I just realized something. With the charge hitbox of AS being pushed back to frame ten, and cancel framepushed back to frame eight, we shouldn't have anymore of those "ASCnopelolnoknockback" moments. That's a legitimate buff.

What do you mean?

 

[Akkien]

I just realized something. With the charge hitbox of AS being pushed back to frame ten, and cancel framepushed back to frame eight, we shouldn't have anymore of those "ASCnopelolnoknockback" moments. That's a legitimate buff.

More like a fix. Canceling the knockback of attacks was absolutely ridiculous and abused for building up a lot of damage. It was a necessary change to make Lucario reasonable.

 

[LupinX]

Here's an idea, what if you can add light armour in Lucario's DTC? It certainly helps approaches and you won't get knocked out by weak moves and still get interrupted by smashes etc etc

 

[EmptySky00]

What if we make another taunt heal him but use aura to balance out the aura control mechanic

We should avoid silly gimmicks like that. Not only would it be bad for offsetting the taunt damage, but it doesn't make sense in the context of the character. Also a TERRIBLE waste of aura. Just re read that.

Here's an idea, what if you can add light armour in Lucario's DTC? It certainly helps approaches and you won't get knocked out by weak moves and still get interrupted by smashes etc etc

This also makes no sense in the context of the character. But let's try putting light armor on every move where getting hit out of it is inconvenient lol. That's not a fix for anything it's just handing out gratuitous and needless buffs.

 

[Zoa]

What do you mean?

Basically using ASC in 3.5 and earlier patches when close to the opponent after landing a move could halt knockback completely. It could prevent kill moves from killing, or just rack up ridiculous amounts of damage.

More like a fix. Canceling the knockback of attacks was absolutely ridiculous and abused for building up a lot of damage. It was a necessary change to make Lucario reasonable.

I definitely agree. I saw IPK do that several times. One notable example was a match against Falcon where IPK did several dsmash -> ASC that locked the opponent. It was crazy. However I see it as more of a buff because now I don't have ASC stopping my kill moves on occasion due to my poor spacing.

Here's an idea, what if you can add light armour in Lucario's DTC? It certainly helps approaches and you won't get knocked out by weak moves and still get interrupted by smashes etc etc

DT is fine as is. It emphasises Lucario as a punish character. DTC previously was a bit toxic. We had 10+ frames of unclankable (from grounded foes anyways) aerial attacks, and intangible approaches that had 10+ frames was a bit ridiculous. Adding light armor would only serve to add to the toxicity of DTC. However I still really want that vanilla Brawl speed FCAS.

 

[LupinX]

Ah, thanks for the inputs guys, it's just that I have to try much harder to approach and it's not working, so I end up camping/baiting them out instead. BTW what's FCAS?